AA - not good news

[HA25]

I too agree that AA is the lesser of evils as far as compitent management, however that doesn't excuse the CEO pay at these airlines. I agree that we need the best at the helm, but you can get a lot of talent for less than the money they make and if you limit all CEO pay accross the board at all companies (i.e. limit stock options), then you get rid of the ENRON/GC/WORLDCOM temptations to make quarterly earnings look good to raise the price of your stock, and you begin to come closer to the Europeans and Japanese in how they pay their CEOs..

No, I am not a communist, I am a 12 year registered conservative Republican.

 

[AAflyer]

Pub,

The railway labor act of 1926 was the the result of a long evolution. It addressed

1. many attempts to deal with the rights of labor to unionize

2. the establishment of enforceable dispute settlement machinery.

3. the prevention of the interruption of service.

A few acts that helped establish the RLA. were the

Arbitration Act of 1888, to introduce voluntary arbitration.
The Erdman Act of 1898 to introduce mediation prior to arbitration

The Newlands Act of 1900 revised the Erdman act and established a permanent mediation board.

In WWI the government to control of the railroads.

The transportaion act of 1920. Enacted to restore the railroads to private managment and established the US raiway labor board to investigate disputes. The boards hearings replaced mediation. The Suprement court then ruled there were no means to enforce the decisions.

Howell Barkely in a bill that is hes name introduced 1925 addressed the ineffectiveness of the Transportaion Act of 1920.

This became the starting point for labor and industry leaders to join together in mutually beneficial discussions. The Bill became known as the Railway Labor Act of 1926. (pub, you are right, it would make a lot of sense to change the NAME). But the core of the Act is good. Sect 6 of the RLA governs how we bargain.

1. Negotiations

2. Mediation

3.Impasse

4.Voluntary Arbitration

5.Cooling off/Supermediation period

6. PEB

7. Self help (strike)

8. Congressional Intervention.

The RLA has been effective. Since 1975 there have been only two PEBs and 41 strikes in the industry.

The process has worked well for morethan 75 years.

The alternative is Base-ballstyle arbitration. Will explain later why this is no good for our industry or profession.

AAflyer

 

[tredding@swa]

have to disagree...

Sorry V,

Have to disagree with you on the comment;

"...and if you limit all CEO pay accross the board at all companies (i.e. limit stock options), then you get rid of the ENRON/GC/WORLDCOM temptations to make quarterly earnings look good to raise the price of your stock"

As a shareholder of many PUBLIC companies, I can't go there. These guys and girls have apid their dues and proved their worth BEFORE getting hired by these companies. If you don't like it, I suggest becoming an investor and writing letters to the Board of Directors, attending annual shareholder meetings and voting annually. The LAST thing the greatest economy on the planet needs is MORE gov't intervention & rules limiting management's pay!!

Some people STRONGLY believe that a 777 CPT is overpaid, perhaps the FAA should limit pilot pay, even better... let's give the airlines back to the government - re-regulation anyone!?!?!?

Love the dialog..... Have a great day fellow swimmers! Tredding

 

[AAflyer]

To address the other comment.

AA management has not honored the contract. They have removed code-share designators on flights to fall under the ASM cap, they have broken eagle's scope contract with the selling of their rjs to Trans States or CHQ (can't remember which one at this time). How would have thought to see the day when Eagle was getting Scoped out. They are now in the process of possibly spinning off executive arilines to release more seats. They are pulling out of cities that they probably would not have kept anyway (more expensive to operate rjs than saabs on certain routes). However they are playing to the media how it is that darn contract that is preventing them from staying in that city pair. All the while Don is screaming to Congress. I signed this contract I just can't live with anymore. SO can you get rid of it?

Eagle was originally desgined as a feed to AA. Currently almost 51% of their paxnever continue on an AA flight. With the introduction of the LGA shuttle that number drops to 48%.

With the reduction of the F-100 and the furlough of 555 pilots, but the continued purchase of RJS I am worried.

I agree with eaglefly, thingsare changing. I think now more than ever our two groups at AMR (pilot) need to come together and gain control before it is lost for ever.

AAflyer

 

[CoopDog]

Aviation Interview Board????

Gee what happened to the Aviation Interview Board? I enjoy reading all the posts here, BUT.....

Reading my old company's ALPA web-board from time to time is depressing enough. I come here for the positive info and rumors on hiring and growth. I know there ain't much these days, but I'm sure we can dig up some good rumors around here somewhere.

For those of you facing an upcoming furlough, and new to this board, WELCOME. There are some really great folks here and there's always lot's of good stuff gett'n tossed around from time to time. It's been a good source of encouragement for quite a few of us.

So feel free to post away! Please, just remember where you are, the "AVIATION INTERVIEW BOARD"

 

[BacktoAA]

Give me a break, Coopdog. Everything you read on this forum has a direct effect on whether people will ever interview for that "dream job" with a Major. Keep the perspective and lose the semantics. Would it make everybody happier if they had to dig it out of the "General" forum? Probably not.

 

[Hoss]

Who cares what the forum is named? We all know where to find the information we need.

 

[HA25]

Dog, not a lot of interviewing going on these days, sorry...

Tredding, I am a share holder (AMR alone I have 500 shares), and others. I am also an MBA in Finance (not from Wharton, Stanford or Harvard alas), so I understand this stuff well. The fact is, stock options are the reason CEO pay is out of control, most of them take a reasonable salary, it's the stock options that hurt everyone, especially the investor. These options are a)off the books, and non-expensable, b)they give incentive to maximize stock price on a short term, such as was done at Enron, Worldcom, GC, Quest, etc.... The system is basically designed as a get rich quick scheme for executives who have "insider" info, that we investors and employees don't.

btw - when are you gonna take me up on that offer to get together for a beer?

AAFlyer, as a guy who almost got a seniority # at AA(just missed it) I totally agree with you on the issue of RJ's and scope, Just watch Eagle double in size over the same time period that the F100's retire.. and APA will probably cave on this very issue, as by then US Air and UAL will have major loosining of their scope language forcing AMR to go down that road.

All this thanks to SWA, btw.

 

[publisher]

contend

I would say that AA has lived to the letter of the law, not the spirit and that we would agree on.

Unfortunately when you create something like scope that by its very nature restricts in a non competitive way what a carrier does with its assets, you invite this type of BS.

As to CEO pay, yes it is high and yes it may not seem fair. That said, no more rediculous than paying a 747 driver over $350,000 at one place and $80,000 some where else.

It si not fair, not equitable, not what you might like, it is what it is. American business

 

[HA25]

tell you what boys, if we don't come together as a profession, there will be $70,000 747 captains and $30,000 RJ captains everywhere. Don't you think that would be the way it is were it not for ALPA/APA etc...

 

[Maynard]

Thanks...

V70T5 or whatever, thanks to SWA, we can work until we are ready to retire. What a concept. How many years will it be until any other airline can do that? 10? 15? ALPA is in deep Sh#t. Common sense is something that I know you have. I hope that you are okay...

 

[HA25]

this isn't personal - don't make it..

I'm ok, I just don't want to see us flying RJ's all over the country to compete with SWA. The answer is that the airlines have to reevaluate their model, but that alone is not enough, SWA pilots and now JB pilots need to step up to the plate and get industry leading money for those 737's, else the free market will drag down everyone to the lowest common denominator. This is part of what is happening now where "UAL has high labor costs" The problem is that SWA has low costs, not the other way around as far as we pilots should be concerned.

If that rubs you wrong, I'm sorry, I don't mean any personal insult to anyone.

BTW V70T5 is the name of the souped up version of my wagon, the V70 2.4T, but that doesn’t go too well for a screen name so I use V70T5...... at least we can clear that up.

 

[Maynard]

Souped up wagon? That's cool...

It doesn't rub me wrong at all. It's just that 737 industry leading pay is whatever people are willing to pay to ride on a 737, and how much a company can pay a 737 pilot and remain profittable. Each day we are re-defining 737 industry leading pay. I hope that it doesn't fall much further...Good luck(hope I didn't misspell profittable).

As far as our pilots' "stepping up to the table", they did that almost 10 years ago in an unpresidented pay freeze in order to make sure that the company makes it through the GUARANTEED bad times that happen approx. every 10 or 12 years, and it appears to be working so far, not to mention the fact that they have just offered us a pay raise (and some nit wits are thinking about voting it down, guess you have 'em at every airline...)

Finally, after the profits happen, I get rewarded with stock options and profit sharing. I haven't been here for 30 yrs., but it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry

 

[HA25]

Re: Souped up wagon? That's cool...

it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry

This much is true...

 

[eaglefly]

Actually, it won't be Eagle doubling in size. It will be Connection. Using "reverse code-sharing" they can fly ANY SIZE aircraft to ANY DESTINATION with UNLIMITED FLEET SIZE.

Scope and the ASM cap have Eagle under some control.

Connection is free to EXPLODE !

I should change my name to S60T5, as I have a "souped-up" sedan.

 

[HA25]

eaglefly. the S60T5 is a rocket. I wanted the S80 T6 but the wife veto'd it and made me get the wagon, and the low pressure turbo, it still move out though.

As for "Connection", I agree and the term RJ has been stretched a bit as well, the other day I was at SMF and saw a Horizon CRJ700, and I had to do a double take as it looked like a mainline size jet. Now there are 90 seat versions and EMB has a AirBus 318 look alike comming out soon, to be sold to the "regionals" I assume.

I hope the unions can hold ground on scope, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[AAflyer]

Pub,

There is that magical $350K 747 captain pay. Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. I have contract comparison numbers for all the majors (not kit darby's math either). Still can't figure where you arrived at that? It is bad enough the flying public (ignorance) thinks we make $350k and work a week a month, but you are in the biz.

As for SWA being the cheese. Yes it is a great company, but they don't fund a pension and medical to retirees like some of the other carriers. (what a tremendous cost) If those costs were dropped it would be a different story.

AAflyer

 

[HA25]

Southwest really needs to pick up the pace for pilot pay or else we're all going to see major pay cuts for a long time to come. SWA flies in a lot of the same markets as AMR and that is an advantage they have over AMR, pay, retirement, productivity (work rules).

 

[HPaul3]

AApples and Peanuts

Southwest really needs to pick up the pace for pilot pay or else we're all going to see major pay cuts for a long time to come. SWA flies in a lot of the same markets as AMR and that is an advantage they have over AMR, pay, retirement, productivity (work rules).

OK V70, here's my Kool-aid qualified response to that:

Efficiency. Quicker turns. Point-to-point flights. One airframe. Lower insurance costs (see "bring your own type rating.") Peanuts. Wild Turkey. Scanty FA uniforms (well, at least in the '70s--saved costs on material). Fast taxiing. Entertainment provided by the crew. Oh--and pay, retirement and productivity.

A little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. Really hard to compare the two. And I don't think Southwest wants to convert to a hub-and-spoke, international airline anymore than AA wants to convert to a point-to-point, domestic, one-airframe airline. As for picking up the pace for pilot pay, I believe Southwest could make a move to lead the entire industry for 737 pay by a cushion of 30% and still be the most profitable airline in the industry because of the other efficiencies. But that's just never going to happen. The guys over there just have a different take on the whole pay vs. retirement vs. job security equation. Of course they want to be paid commensurate to the duty at hand, and they will be. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion about the verdancy of the neighbors' lawn when it comes down to crunch time, not in this new world anyway.

I feel for the furloughees out there, and for those who have, temporarily or permanently, missed their opportunity for their dream job, believe me--I share a bedroom with one of them, and she's the mother of my children. And as deleriously happy as I am, I'm not anywhere near complacent about my place in the grand experiment we're all in, despite my unbelievably good fortune to have a place in the Southwest pool. But I find it sadly ironic how much talk there is about Southwest these days, as if they just fell off the turnip truck. For God's sake, they've been doing THE SAME THING for 31 years now! And they even wrote their formula down in a few books. (The last good book about them was written even as the latest great boom in the majors began in '96.) But now all of a sudden they're more visible because they're leading in profitability (a gross understatement) and the pilots are supposed to step up and demand a wage that could make their balance sheet look a lot more like the rest of the carriers'? I just don't see it happening.

I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see, 1) if the RJ boom will really happen as has been widely projected in this forum, and 2) what affect that might have on Southwest's fortunes. I will keep the faith, as my dream job is riding on that one too.

In Herb I trust.

Sign me,
850T5, or 740GLE (Volvo geek moment)

 

[Dieterly]

Fast taxiing

Favorite past time: Slow down to 7-8 knots while you have Southwest behind you on the taxiway...