Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

AA MD80 lands short in DEN? / AA MD-80 undershoots DIA rwy 35L

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
FlyingToIST said:
DIA is what locals refer to it as in Denver International Airport. It was also used as an interim code when Stapleton was about to close and DEN was about to open.

Denver International's ICAO code is KDEN, and IATA is DEN. Period. :)
Click to expand...
Ack, people do that here too. It's KSNA/SNA, for Santa Ana (where it's located) but the local TV channels and the newspapers persist in calling it JWA (John Wayne Airport.) There IS nothing named JWA as far as I know...

Such is :rolleyes:

Stephanie
 
Yah the media has called Denver Intl DIA way before it ever opened, its a slang term us locals use. I dont of anyone who calls it DEN or KDEN around here........
 
TWA Dude said:
Had that A300 been a 767 with a more normal rudder pedal sensitivity even the FO's inputs (assuming that's what they were) wouldn't have likely ripped the tail off. No doubt that'll all be big when the trials come.
Click to expand...
In that I am in complete agreement.
 
At 50 to 75 feet agl, the first officer "dipped below the glide slope."
Click to expand...

Ah, what am I missing here??? The Threashold Crossing Height on most ILS's is about 50 feet, which means that at 50' on GS, you're over the threashold and past ALL the approach lights. That's why while Cat II RA decision heights may vary a little from 100' or 150' (i.e. on GS at 150' above the TDZ you're actually a foot or three higher or lower above the ground directly beneath you), the Cat IIIA RA is always set at exactly 50', since you're over the paved surface.

Even at 75' AGL you'd have to push over WAY, WAY hard to go from on-GS to an overrun touchdown.

Might one wonder if the below-GS status commenced somewhat sooner than "50 to 75 feet"?

Hard IFR, there are some excellent reasons to be stabilized at 1000', even if those with the "right stuff" can usually get away with less.
 
"Ack, people do that here too. It's KSNA/SNA, for Santa Ana (where it's located) but the local TV channels and the newspapers persist in calling it JWA (John Wayne Airport.) There IS nothing named JWA as far as I know"

http://www.ocair.com/
 
They do the same thing in Orlando. It drives me nuts when they call it OIA. There is no such beast it is MCO.
 
Well I agree with someone who said it earlier in this thread. Another hour of ground school vidoes for all of us in the next year. Point is: we as a group are still letting our pride get the best of us. I'm just as guilty as anyone else and try my best to hold myself to the standards.

I've taken a very black and white approach to these stabilized approach criteria. Either you're stabilized at 500 AGL (VMC) or 1000 AGL (IMC) or you're not. We all know what the criteria are at those decision points and what course of action is to be taken if we're not. If you're stabilized great, continue on. If not then go around. I also make it a point to let the person I'm flying with know that as we're approaching that decsion point, if they're not stabilized at that time, then we're gonna have to take it around. Gives them a little heads up to know what might be about to happen. I also expect them to hold me to that same standard. Kinda like a VDP. You either see it or you don't. No maybes or almost.

Again I'll be the first to admit that my compliance is not 100%. I'm human after all. I have to try my best to hold myself and my FO to that standard.

But another thing that I'd like to add is the whole ATC issue. Seriously this sh!t has got to stop. Poor vectors in low IFR are unacceptable period. I know, I know try telling the guys in the ORD or NYC tracons that one. They'll laugh you right off to the alternate. But ALPA, NATCA and other groups need to step up and put an end to this. We as pilots need to do our part. Ever notice these days that when someone goes around, before the tower even hands you back off to the approach controller, they want to know why you went around. Seems to me like someone is keeping track of the numbers of go arounds related to ATC vs. pilot issues. So I know that data is out there. Problem is that by swallowing our tounges and accepting poor vectors or late turn-ons, sure we're helping them, we're helping the customers, but we're just setting up a false sense of how bad things really are.

I guess there are too many issues to even address. Where do you start. For example. 27L into ORD. That FAF is only like 4 miles or so from the MAP. ATC wants you to hold 170 to 180 till that FAF and then per your company's CFM or FOM be stablized by 1000 AGL. Not sure about others but in my particular aircraft it's damm near impossible to do.

So where do we even start ???
 
TC

Didn't a NWA DC-9 just skid off the runway in Lansing.They also took off out of DTW years back without slats or flaps. I guess I will never fly on NWA. I almost forgot, they landed at the wrong airport about a year back. Yikes?

USairways took off with rudder trim set full left the and went into flushing bay in LGA, guess I can't fly on them.

Come to think of it CAL, and DAL also landed airports other than the one intended, not even going into the other incidents and accidents at those two companies.

You are right TC, maybe it safer just not to fly on US carriers, how about we talk to Bush and allow cabotage, then we can safely fly the skies on China air from ORD to LAX.

Send me your schedule, I am hoping you and I can log some dual, and you can teach me how to fly:rolleyes: .

Thanks
AA
 
Someday, when I am real good, I will list every single engine aircraft I have possibly flown under my aircraft experience like our boy AAFlyer!!!
 
JJGMADDOG said:
Someday, when I am real good, I will list every single engine aircraft I have possibly flown under my aircraft experience like our boy AAFlyer!!!
Click to expand...
Actually it isn't all of them, but I notice you don't have one? Must have started out as a TWA pilot!! I guess you are way too GOOD to list any of those little bitty airplanes. Only BIG ONES, You MUST BE REALLY GOOD!!

Actually I changed my mind!! Can I please get some dual from YOU!!! Please !!!!

Remember that when AA started hiring in 98 we hired only the WORST pilots from
SWA
TWA
AWA
ATA
Fed-Ex
Airborne
Comair
ACA
Air Wisconsin
Jet Express
Eagle
Mesaba
and the list goes on!!!

How about I get some pilots from all those companies, we can meet and you can teach us all at once!!!!!

Thanks again. Please PM me when you have a place and time set up.
AA:rolleyes:
 
AAflyer--Yep. Nothing wrong at AA. Sorry to bother you. Just keep on doing what you've been doing. Everything is fine.

As for the list of people from all those carriers that went to work for AA in '98--If I go out and hire a really good looking whore, it doesn't mean I'm some kind of stud. It just means I paid a her lot of money.

On the subject of JJG or I giving you dual--With your attitude, I think it's apparent I couldn't teach you anything... You already know it all.TC
 
You got that right TC!!

AAflyer you are a perfect fit for the Nordstrom pilots of the industry....consistently ignorant and arrogant! See ya around skippy!!!
 
PLEASE let's not turn this into another endless TWA/AA debate. That horse has been reincarnated by now, and he's out of the airline industry.

Happy Holidays, fellow airline pilots.
 
aa73 said:
PLEASE let's not turn this into another endless TWA/AA debate. That horse has been reincarnated by now, and he's out of the airline industry.

Happy Holidays, fellow airline pilots.
Click to expand...


aa73

I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....Don't count on it. You will probably be reminded of it for years to come. And that doesn't mean that we (ex-TWA types) "can't get over it" or "the bitterness will kill us" etc.... Most people outside of AA/TWA believe we got screwed. And that's not just coming from my mother. I don't think you realize yet how you have affected the lives of thousands (pilots, flight attendants....) in such a negative and unfair way. I know, I know...life's not fair. And it won't be as long as people do things like this.

Thanks again.....and Happy Holidays.
 
I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....
Click to expand...
Hmm, what did ALPA (you) do for the TWA pilots?

What would the best solution be if the TWA guys had their choice?
D.O.H.?
Or just intergrate from the top down?

Or some other deal that was open for negotiations?

Just wondering what would make the TWA guys happy?
(AA guys secondary of course)

At any rate, if one gets screwed, one can always use the legal system to turn a wrongdoing into a right one.

Or blame managment on both sides, or something....Surely somebody is responsible for it all?

Aye, too bad that this airline business and life in general is not as advertised.

Just ask the Pan-Am guys, the Braniff guys, the Eastern guys, and the Tower Air guys...(Me)

Hold yer guns, not starting the endless fight over again, just asking an honest question: What would have made the TWA whole? (And Happy?)
 
Hmm, what did ALPA (you) do for the TWA pilots?
What would the best solution be if the TWA guys had their choice?
D.O.H.?

.....Not 60% Stapled including 13 year CA's and Senior CA's at Junior FO seniority levels. Let's look at AirCal, Republic, Peoples, Airtrain, Air Canada.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or just intergrate from the top down?

......Stupid question. That would not be fair at all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or some other deal that was open for negotiations?

.......Say what???

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wondering what would make the TWA guys happy?
(AA guys secondary of course)

....... Why would anything other than what happened make AA guys "secondary"? Do you really think this was the only possible outcome that would make the AA guys happy and protected. What do you think would have happened if AA pilots were ALPA? Would that have been unfair. I guess that's why the ALPA movement suddenly stopped at AA during all of this. I still remember the APA hotline telling everyone not to fill out their ALPA cards. Hmmm.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

At any rate, if one gets screwed, one can always use the legal system to turn a wrongdoing into a right one.
Or blame managment on both sides, or something....Surely somebody is responsible for it all?

......Mostly the APA, some others too, including us. So, I guess you think OJ is not guilty and all of your greivences are awarded fairly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aye, too bad that this airline business and life in general is not as advertised.
Just ask the Pan-Am guys, the Braniff guys, the Eastern guys, and the Tower Air guys...(Me)

........It is too bad good companies go out of business. TWA did not go out of business. The intent of the merger/acquisition was different...."Two Great Airlines, One Great Future".....remember that? Don't think Delta had that for the PanAm guys. This was the biggest deal of them all. AA took the entire operation with the exception of a few bad contracts, leases etc....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hold yer guns, not starting the endless fight over again, just asking an honest question: What would have made the TWA whole? (And Happy?)

........Deep down you know what should have been done, mostly. It's easy for you to be all big and bad on a message board, asking obvious and exaggerated questions, especially when you won, however, I hope you're really not that arrogant in real life. Btw, let me know if you need more help with your honest and simple questions.
 
rudderdog said:
aa73

I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....Don't count on it. You will probably be reminded of it for years to come. And that doesn't mean that we (ex-TWA types) "can't get over it" or "the bitterness will kill us" etc.... Most people outside of AA/TWA believe we got screwed. And that's not just coming from my mother. I don't think you realize yet how you have affected the lives of thousands (pilots, flight attendants....) in such a negative and unfair way. I know, I know...life's not fair. And it won't be as long as people do things like this.

Thanks again.....and Happy Holidays.
Click to expand...
I didn't do anything to any pilot. Let's get that clear right now.

My airline decided to buy your airline. Not me.

My union put together a seniority integration that the judge ruled was fair. I didn't have a say in it.

As such, don't hold ME accountable for your misfortune. I'm not the one that decided to buy your airline. I'm as much of a pawn in AMR's corporate game as the next guy.

Finally, I do realize how circumstances today have affected thousands of livelihoods. Including my own. I'm getting furloughed.

I made a choice to come to AMR when I did because it was the only job offer I had in hand, and a prerry decent one at that. I never once thought that 9/11 would happen, that AMR would be flirting with bankruptcy, etc. When you hired on w/ TWA you never had any idea that AMR would buy you.
In other owrds, this career is a crapshoot.

So if you want to blame somebody, here's a starting point:

AMR Management
APA Leadership
ALPA leadership
TWA Management

Don't blame me, because I didn't set it up. I'm just another number here.

Finally, I maintain that "Fair" or "Unfair" is just another opinion subject to the eye of the beholder. It doesn't really matter does it? When we signed on for this career, we were all prepared for the dumps... or where we?

So in reality, I really have not affected anyone's life, have I? I didn't vote on this thing, I didn't set it up - so don't try to tell me I ruined your life. I didn't.

Regards,
aa73
 
asking obvious and exaggerated questions, especially when you won, however, I hope you're really not that arrogant in real life.
Click to expand...
Did I win?

I am also arrogant?

Been smoking crack there Mr. Rudderdog?

I sure don't feel like a winner in this airline game: Been furloughed numerous times, including from AA.

Arrogant for asking what would make the whiners happy?

You never answered the question.

As for APA being the bad guy:
What the hell did ya except?
Did ya have wet dreams about APA looking out for the TWA guys?

:confused:

Bitch at yer ALPA B.O.D. that took yer dues and negotiated on yer behalf, or just keep barking at lack of justice and fairness here at the bulletin board, but it sure as hell is not my personal fault that ya did not do the right career choice from the beginning.

(Before ya call me arrogant and a winner again: I focked up my career choices as well, but I ain't blaming nobody but myself)

Nuff said.
 
Did I win?

Yes, I'm sure you noticed your pay didn't stop when only TWA pilots were being furloughed up to about a 1988 hire. And I'm sure you'll notice again when we all get called back and want Christmas off. Unless, of course, you were hired after the merger/acquisition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am also arrogant?

For actually thinking that anything better than Supp CC would have been unfair to you or make the AA pilots secondary.....Yes. Very.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Been smoking crack there Mr. Rudderdog?

Another exaggeration??? But no, if you really need to know.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I sure don't feel like a winner in this airline game: Been furloughed numerous times, including from AA.

Talk to Dr. Phil.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arrogant for asking what would make the whiners happy?

see #2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You never answered the question.
As for APA being the bad guy:
What the hell did ya except?

I was never an expert on mergers, but I certainly knew what not to expect as I told you before.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did ya have wet dreams about APA looking out for the TWA guys?

Just being fair.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
:confused:

Bitch at yer ALPA B.O.D. that took yer dues and negotiated on yer behalf, or just keep barking at lack of justice and fairness here at the bulletin board, but it sure as hell is not my personal fault that ya did not do the right career choice from the beginning.

As I mentioned earlier, I do blame us (ALPA) partly, but CC was crafted by the APA (you) and forced on us. And you were the one who first mentioned the legal system......we all know that just because the court says so, doesn't mean it's right as in my 2 examples earlier.
This has nothing to do with our career choices.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Before ya call me arrogant and a winner again: I focked up my career choices as well, but I ain't blaming nobody but myself)

I never blamed anyone for my career choice either. How did you ever come up with that?
 
rudderdog said:
I never blamed anyone for my career choice either. How did you ever come up with that?
Click to expand...
...and therefore you have no argument. Your career choice netted you the present result... as did mine, and the next guy's ,etc.

You cannot control what becomes of your career, my friend. Most of the TWA pilots I fly with, as well as AA pilots, have long come to that conclusion.

See my above post for clarification.
 
Whatever....Yawn.

But before I go to bed:

Go back and pick a fight with somebody else...The AA pilots sure as hell did not wish for TWA to come aboard.

If TWA was so great, heck run your own airline and stay afloat...If not, blame your managment and your union for your problems.

I got my own problems, tired of hearing about yours.

Cry on somebody else's shoulders.

Goodnight.
 
I didn't do anything to any pilot. Let's get that clear right now.

It's obvious what you think about the integration so I'll bet you didn't oppose Supp CC and demand something more balanced. Am I wrong? For that, you, as a supportive union member, are to blame(or take credit for CC if you prefer). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My airline decided to buy your airline. Not me.

I'll buy that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My union put together a seniority integration that the judge ruled was fair. I didn't have a say in it.

If your in a union, you do have a say. You should learn how to communicate with your reps.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
As such, don't hold ME accountable for your misfortune. I'm not the one that decided to buy your airline. I'm as much of a pawn in AMR's corporate game as the next guy.

This has nothing to do with who bought the airline. Are you an APA member?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I do realize how circumstances today have affected thousands of livelihoods. Including my own. I'm getting furloughed.

I'm sorry about the furlough. As I said to CSY Mon, you have worked for many months if not a couple of years beyond many very senior TWA pilots. And you will always have your seniority when called back. I don't know your doh, but if you are getting furloughed then it must be around 2000, right? fair? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a choice to come to AMR when I did because it was the only job offer I had in hand, and a prerry decent one at that. I never once thought that 9/11 would happen, that AMR would be flirting with bankruptcy, etc. When you hired on w/ TWA you never had any idea that AMR would buy you.
In other owrds, this career is a crapshoot.
So if you want to blame somebody, here's a starting point:
AMR Management
APA Leadership
ALPA leadership
TWA Management
Don't blame me, because I didn't set it up. I'm just another number here.


***Again, I don't blame any of the above for my career choice******

We all know who crafted the integeration. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I maintain that "Fair" or "Unfair" is just another opinion subject to the eye of the beholder. It doesn't really matter does it? When we signed on for this career, we were all prepared for the dumps... or where we?
So in reality, I really have not affected anyone's life, have I? I didn't vote on this thing, I didn't set it up - so don't try to tell me I ruined your life. I didn't.

First of all, MY life was not ruined. I'm doing fine, thank-you. Others are too, but some not. Sure, fair is an opinion. But, don't you, as a normal, human being, have a hint of an expectation of what "fair" is in most situations. Don't write off the word just because it's an opinion. If you made it through an airline interview you must have the ability to see that from other than just your little world. If you can, then you may use the word when speaking to other than yourself.
Did you support CC or not?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom