AA MD80 lands short in DEN? / AA MD-80 undershoots DIA rwy 35L

[aa73]

PLEASE let's not turn this into another endless TWA/AA debate. That horse has been reincarnated by now, and he's out of the airline industry.

Happy Holidays, fellow airline pilots.

 

[rudderdog]

PLEASE let's not turn this into another endless TWA/AA debate. That horse has been reincarnated by now, and he's out of the airline industry.

Happy Holidays, fellow airline pilots.

aa73

I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....Don't count on it. You will probably be reminded of it for years to come. And that doesn't mean that we (ex-TWA types) "can't get over it" or "the bitterness will kill us" etc.... Most people outside of AA/TWA believe we got screwed. And that's not just coming from my mother. I don't think you realize yet how you have affected the lives of thousands (pilots, flight attendants....) in such a negative and unfair way. I know, I know...life's not fair. And it won't be as long as people do things like this.

Thanks again.....and Happy Holidays.

 

[CSY Mon]

I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....

Hmm, what did ALPA (you) do for the TWA pilots?

What would the best solution be if the TWA guys had their choice?
D.O.H.?
Or just intergrate from the top down?

Or some other deal that was open for negotiations?

Just wondering what would make the TWA guys happy?
(AA guys secondary of course)

At any rate, if one gets screwed, one can always use the legal system to turn a wrongdoing into a right one.

Or blame managment on both sides, or something....Surely somebody is responsible for it all?

Aye, too bad that this airline business and life in general is not as advertised.

Just ask the Pan-Am guys, the Braniff guys, the Eastern guys, and the Tower Air guys...(Me)

Hold yer guns, not starting the endless fight over again, just asking an honest question: What would have made the TWA whole? (And Happy?)

 

[rudderdog]

Hmm, what did ALPA (you) do for the TWA pilots?
What would the best solution be if the TWA guys had their choice?
D.O.H.?

.....Not 60% Stapled including 13 year CA's and Senior CA's at Junior FO seniority levels. Let's look at AirCal, Republic, Peoples, Airtrain, Air Canada.....
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Or just intergrate from the top down?

......Stupid question. That would not be fair at all.
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Or some other deal that was open for negotiations?

.......Say what???

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Just wondering what would make the TWA guys happy?
(AA guys secondary of course)

....... Why would anything other than what happened make AA guys "secondary"? Do you really think this was the only possible outcome that would make the AA guys happy and protected. What do you think would have happened if AA pilots were ALPA? Would that have been unfair. I guess that's why the ALPA movement suddenly stopped at AA during all of this. I still remember the APA hotline telling everyone not to fill out their ALPA cards. Hmmm.....

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At any rate, if one gets screwed, one can always use the legal system to turn a wrongdoing into a right one.
Or blame managment on both sides, or something....Surely somebody is responsible for it all?

......Mostly the APA, some others too, including us. So, I guess you think OJ is not guilty and all of your greivences are awarded fairly.

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Aye, too bad that this airline business and life in general is not as advertised.
Just ask the Pan-Am guys, the Braniff guys, the Eastern guys, and the Tower Air guys...(Me)

........It is too bad good companies go out of business. TWA did not go out of business. The intent of the merger/acquisition was different...."Two Great Airlines, One Great Future".....remember that? Don't think Delta had that for the PanAm guys. This was the biggest deal of them all. AA took the entire operation with the exception of a few bad contracts, leases etc....

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Hold yer guns, not starting the endless fight over again, just asking an honest question: What would have made the TWA whole? (And Happy?)

........Deep down you know what should have been done, mostly. It's easy for you to be all big and bad on a message board, asking obvious and exaggerated questions, especially when you won, however, I hope you're really not that arrogant in real life. Btw, let me know if you need more help with your honest and simple questions.

 

[aa73]

aa73

I know you would love for people to forget what the APA (you) did to the TWA pilots....Don't count on it. You will probably be reminded of it for years to come. And that doesn't mean that we (ex-TWA types) "can't get over it" or "the bitterness will kill us" etc.... Most people outside of AA/TWA believe we got screwed. And that's not just coming from my mother. I don't think you realize yet how you have affected the lives of thousands (pilots, flight attendants....) in such a negative and unfair way. I know, I know...life's not fair. And it won't be as long as people do things like this.

Thanks again.....and Happy Holidays.

I didn't do anything to any pilot. Let's get that clear right now.

My airline decided to buy your airline. Not me.

My union put together a seniority integration that the judge ruled was fair. I didn't have a say in it.

As such, don't hold ME accountable for your misfortune. I'm not the one that decided to buy your airline. I'm as much of a pawn in AMR's corporate game as the next guy.

Finally, I do realize how circumstances today have affected thousands of livelihoods. Including my own. I'm getting furloughed.

I made a choice to come to AMR when I did because it was the only job offer I had in hand, and a prerry decent one at that. I never once thought that 9/11 would happen, that AMR would be flirting with bankruptcy, etc. When you hired on w/ TWA you never had any idea that AMR would buy you.
In other owrds, this career is a crapshoot.

So if you want to blame somebody, here's a starting point:

AMR Management
APA Leadership
ALPA leadership
TWA Management

Don't blame me, because I didn't set it up. I'm just another number here.

Finally, I maintain that "Fair" or "Unfair" is just another opinion subject to the eye of the beholder. It doesn't really matter does it? When we signed on for this career, we were all prepared for the dumps... or where we?

So in reality, I really have not affected anyone's life, have I? I didn't vote on this thing, I didn't set it up - so don't try to tell me I ruined your life. I didn't.

Regards,
aa73

 

[CSY Mon]

asking obvious and exaggerated questions, especially when you won, however, I hope you're really not that arrogant in real life.

Did I win?

I am also arrogant?

Been smoking crack there Mr. Rudderdog?

I sure don't feel like a winner in this airline game: Been furloughed numerous times, including from AA.

Arrogant for asking what would make the whiners happy?

You never answered the question.

As for APA being the bad guy:
What the hell did ya except?
Did ya have wet dreams about APA looking out for the TWA guys?



Bitch at yer ALPA B.O.D. that took yer dues and negotiated on yer behalf, or just keep barking at lack of justice and fairness here at the bulletin board, but it sure as hell is not my personal fault that ya did not do the right career choice from the beginning.

(Before ya call me arrogant and a winner again: I focked up my career choices as well, but I ain't blaming nobody but myself)

Nuff said.

 

[rudderdog]

Did I win?

Yes, I'm sure you noticed your pay didn't stop when only TWA pilots were being furloughed up to about a 1988 hire. And I'm sure you'll notice again when we all get called back and want Christmas off. Unless, of course, you were hired after the merger/acquisition.
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I am also arrogant?

For actually thinking that anything better than Supp CC would have been unfair to you or make the AA pilots secondary.....Yes. Very.
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Been smoking crack there Mr. Rudderdog?

Another exaggeration??? But no, if you really need to know.
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I sure don't feel like a winner in this airline game: Been furloughed numerous times, including from AA.

Talk to Dr. Phil.....
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Arrogant for asking what would make the whiners happy?

see #2

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You never answered the question.
As for APA being the bad guy:
What the hell did ya except?

I was never an expert on mergers, but I certainly knew what not to expect as I told you before.
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Did ya have wet dreams about APA looking out for the TWA guys?

Just being fair.
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Bitch at yer ALPA B.O.D. that took yer dues and negotiated on yer behalf, or just keep barking at lack of justice and fairness here at the bulletin board, but it sure as hell is not my personal fault that ya did not do the right career choice from the beginning.

As I mentioned earlier, I do blame us (ALPA) partly, but CC was crafted by the APA (you) and forced on us. And you were the one who first mentioned the legal system......we all know that just because the court says so, doesn't mean it's right as in my 2 examples earlier.
This has nothing to do with our career choices.
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(Before ya call me arrogant and a winner again: I focked up my career choices as well, but I ain't blaming nobody but myself)

I never blamed anyone for my career choice either. How did you ever come up with that?

 

[aa73]

I never blamed anyone for my career choice either. How did you ever come up with that?

...and therefore you have no argument. Your career choice netted you the present result... as did mine, and the next guy's ,etc.

You cannot control what becomes of your career, my friend. Most of the TWA pilots I fly with, as well as AA pilots, have long come to that conclusion.

See my above post for clarification.

 

[CSY Mon]

Whatever....Yawn.

But before I go to bed:

Go back and pick a fight with somebody else...The AA pilots sure as hell did not wish for TWA to come aboard.

If TWA was so great, heck run your own airline and stay afloat...If not, blame your managment and your union for your problems.

I got my own problems, tired of hearing about yours.

Cry on somebody else's shoulders.

Goodnight.

 

[rudderdog]

I didn't do anything to any pilot. Let's get that clear right now.

It's obvious what you think about the integration so I'll bet you didn't oppose Supp CC and demand something more balanced. Am I wrong? For that, you, as a supportive union member, are to blame(or take credit for CC if you prefer). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My airline decided to buy your airline. Not me.

I'll buy that.
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My union put together a seniority integration that the judge ruled was fair. I didn't have a say in it.

If your in a union, you do have a say. You should learn how to communicate with your reps.
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As such, don't hold ME accountable for your misfortune. I'm not the one that decided to buy your airline. I'm as much of a pawn in AMR's corporate game as the next guy.

This has nothing to do with who bought the airline. Are you an APA member?
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Finally, I do realize how circumstances today have affected thousands of livelihoods. Including my own. I'm getting furloughed.

I'm sorry about the furlough. As I said to CSY Mon, you have worked for many months if not a couple of years beyond many very senior TWA pilots. And you will always have your seniority when called back. I don't know your doh, but if you are getting furloughed then it must be around 2000, right? fair? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a choice to come to AMR when I did because it was the only job offer I had in hand, and a prerry decent one at that. I never once thought that 9/11 would happen, that AMR would be flirting with bankruptcy, etc. When you hired on w/ TWA you never had any idea that AMR would buy you.
In other owrds, this career is a crapshoot.
So if you want to blame somebody, here's a starting point:
AMR Management
APA Leadership
ALPA leadership
TWA Management
Don't blame me, because I didn't set it up. I'm just another number here.


***Again, I don't blame any of the above for my career choice******

We all know who crafted the integeration. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I maintain that "Fair" or "Unfair" is just another opinion subject to the eye of the beholder. It doesn't really matter does it? When we signed on for this career, we were all prepared for the dumps... or where we?
So in reality, I really have not affected anyone's life, have I? I didn't vote on this thing, I didn't set it up - so don't try to tell me I ruined your life. I didn't.

First of all, MY life was not ruined. I'm doing fine, thank-you. Others are too, but some not. Sure, fair is an opinion. But, don't you, as a normal, human being, have a hint of an expectation of what "fair" is in most situations. Don't write off the word just because it's an opinion. If you made it through an airline interview you must have the ability to see that from other than just your little world. If you can, then you may use the word when speaking to other than yourself.
Did you support CC or not?

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[rudderdog]

Whatever....Yawn.

But before I go to bed:

Go back and pick a fight with somebody else...The AA pilots sure as hell did not wish for TWA to come aboard.

If TWA was so great, heck run your own airline and stay afloat...If not, blame your managment and your union for your problems.

I got my own problems, tired of hearing about yours.

Cry on somebody else's shoulders.

Goodnight.

Later, dude.

 

[rudderdog]

...and therefore you have no argument. Your career choice netted you the present result... as did mine, and the next guy's ,etc.

You cannot control what becomes of your career, my friend. Most of the TWA pilots I fly with, as well as AA pilots, have long come to that conclusion.

See my above post for clarification.

Fine, lets all just go with the flow and never support or object anything. Sounds easy. Let the wind blow.........Hopelessly lost, but making good time!

 

[aa73]

Fine, lets all just go with the flow and never support or object anything. Sounds easy. Let the wind blow.........Hopelessly lost, but making good time!

NOW you finally get it!

 

[aa73]

It's obvious what you think about the integration so I'll bet you didn't oppose Supp CC and demand something more balanced. Am I wrong? For that, you, as a supportive union member, are to blame(or take credit for CC if you prefer).

I didn't oppose anything because it was out of my hands. And frankly, I never even wanted anything to do with the seniority integration because I knew that it was going to create headaches for everyone involved. As such, no, I am not to blame because I didn't craft CC or the integration or whatever. If you want to blame someone, blame them or your union - not me. Furthermore, I didn't have anything to vote on. -

If your in a union, you do have a say. You should learn how to communicate with your reps.

Nope, never had a say in it. Thousands of "soundoffs" were sent, phone calls made, domicile chairs called, etc... they still did it the way they wanted to. APA works from the senior guys down, and us junior folk have no say in what goes on at those levels. You probably weren't at AA long enough to realize that, but the rank and file might as well be on the moon. And yes, I do know how to communicate with them, I just choose not to, on any matter. I'm not too fond of them.

As such, don't hold ME accountable for your misfortune. I'm not the one that decided to buy your airline. I'm as much of a pawn in AMR's corporate game as the next guy.

This has nothing to do with who bought the airline. Are you an APA member?

Regrettably, yes. And yes, since you are intent on blaming me, I am merely suggest you blame the entity that bought your airline. I sure as heck didn't do it.

I'm sorry about the furlough. As I said to CSY Mon, you have worked for many months if not a couple of years beyond many very senior TWA pilots. And you will always have your seniority when called back.
I don't know your doh, but if you are getting furloughed then it must be around 2000, right? fair?

Absolutely. I was hired here before your airline was acquired. As such, APA ensured that those who were hired here were more protected than those that were not hired here. AA did the buying. If TWA would have bought us I'm sure I would have been furloughed very early in the game, as ALPA sought some protection for their members.

We all know who crafted the integeration.

Of course we do... APA was the bargaining agent weren't they?

First of all, MY life was not ruined. I'm doing fine, thank-you. Others are too, but some not. Sure, fair is an opinion. But, don't you, as a normal, human being, have a hint of an expectation of what "fair" is in most situations. Don't write off the word just because it's an opinion. If you made it through an airline interview you must have the ability to see that from other than just your little world. If you can, then you may use the word when speaking to other than yourself.

Not too sure of your point here. I'm glad your life wasn't ruined. My point is that nobody will ever be able to define if this was fair or not. It is strictly an opinion. I am not writing off the word, either. That's just what it is, an opinion, regardless of how much you want me to come out and scream unfair.

Did you support CC or not?

I support CC because it preserves the job expectations of TWA captains, even though it is a huge cash drain on the company. It is also what balances out the large number of TWA pilots that ended up at the bottom.

 

[TWA Dude]

aa73: I though you were off quoting IOE. You can still go back and edit to put the "/" to end your quotes, i.e. {/quote}

 

[rudderdog]

"I support CC because it preserves the job expectations of TWA captains, even though it is a huge cash drain on the company. It is also what balances out the large number of TWA pilots that ended up at the bottom."



.......The difference between a captain and an fo can be one number. Does that mean the fo does not have any career expectations? None? What a joke. Totally irrational. The arrogance among us is amazing.

How do you know if the "career expectatins" have been preserved?
If you all can't even form a reasonable opinion on what is "fair" from another prespective, how on Earth could you have determined the "career expectations" of an airline pilot....at any carrier?

I also think you need to calibrate your scale.

 

[aa73]

.......The difference between a captain and an fo can be one number. Does that mean the fo does not have any career expectations? None? What a joke. Totally irrational. The arrogance among us is amazing.

How do you know if the "career expectatins" have been preserved?
If you all can't even form a reasonable opinion on what is "fair" from another prespective, how on Earth could you have determined the "career expectations" of an airline pilot....at any carrier?

I also think you need to calibrate your scale.

Rudderdog, you are trying to twist the truth here. You know as well as I do that SLT (or STL, or whatever you want to call it) has its own seniority list. When recalls start happening, furloughed TWA pilots in many cases will get recalled right into the left seat. Not one furloughed AA pilot has that kind of reinstatement. That is what CC is all about - protecting the TWA pilots at the STL domicile. If that is not a protection of career expectations then I don't know what is.

What's more, when recalls start up that one FO that's one number away from Captain will upgrade with a seniority that would barely hold 767 FO anywhere else in the system. Once again protecting career expectations, allowing an upgrade more in line with TWA seniority than AA.

TWAdude, I've failed miserably. Back to the sim!