AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[Fins Up]

Other factors were involved. And just try and ask for another runway from JFK approach control. You'll get the "Not only NO, but Hell NO, and don't ask again."

Are you privvy to what these other factors were? If so, we'd all love to hear the whole story.

 

[WDE]

Sitting on Jetblue ramp over 1hour waiting on taxi clearance,saw the whole thihg.Quite entertaining,as well as the other go arounds

 

[luckytohaveajob]

If you don't like the runway/crosswind configuration, that's not an emergency in my book unless there are other factors involved.

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

It sounds like the JFK tower was again letting a child run the tower.

Little kids often don't know what is going on but insist in getting their way.

"No you will do what I want Mr. AA pilot because it is my game and you can't play with my toys."

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

I'm all for re-establishing PIC authority. It's been eroded quite a bit. That said, when would you use emergency authority?

Hypothetically, let's say AA had originally been assigned 31R, but it was closed due to a gear up landing. Now they can't land on 31R. Is this an emergency? If fuel is not an issue, then no - it's just a diversion.

 

[Fins Up]

I'm all for re-establishing PIC authority. It's been eroded quite a bit. That said, when would you use emergency authority?

Hypothetically, let's say AA had originally been assigned 31R, but it was closed due to a gear up landing. Now they can't land on 31R. Is this an emergency? If fuel is not an issue, then no - it's just a diversion.

I agree. All I'm saying is that from what I heard on the tape, it didn't sound like a true emergency. Nothing said about a passenger issue, fuel problem, system problem, or any other problem. The tape leads us to believe that this "emergency" was purely a crossiwind thing. Any amplifying info anyone has would be good to know for us armchair qb's.

 

[Fins Up]

Learn what the letters PIC mean before you become a captain.

ATC does not fly a plane. The captain does. And if in his judgement he needs a runway to keep his airplane safe it is not ATC's call to tell him otherwise.

No shortage of PIC time here. You're right - the captain gets what the captain needs. In this case however the apparent factors that brought about this so-called emergency seem kinda weak.

If you say you need a different runway for crosswinds with nothing said about fuel or any other problem, I see no reason why ATC has to screw up and entire sequence of landing planes because the captain in question needs a different runway. If you're at min/emergency fuel than say so. How hard is that? An emergency fuel declaration will get you on the ground as fast as anything else.

 

[slapstick]

My backseat driving:

We've all diverted due to weather. We've probably all also discussed diversions with ATC and they've worked out a solution to get us in without diverting. Doesn't seem to me a reason to declare an emergency unless other factors were involved. Do you think going rogue, shaking off clearances, and driving around the world's busiest airspace is wise if you're not on fire or running out of fuel? Seems like more of a clash of egos.

 

[aa73]

I agree. All I'm saying is that from what I heard on the tape, it didn't sound like a true emergency. Nothing said about a passenger issue, fuel problem, system problem, or any other problem. The tape leads us to believe that this "emergency" was purely a crossiwind thing. Any amplifying info anyone has would be good to know for us armchair qb's.

Fins... a little common sense goes a long way here.

Winds are out of limits. Crew asks for different runway. Controller says unable. Crew has the option of a) going to a different airport, if they have the fuel for it, or b) declare an emergency in order to exercise PIC authority to get a runway that is within wind limits. In this case, it appears they did not have the fuel to go to a different airport (EWR, the closest for a transcon 767 also has 22 which would have been out of limits, anything else is further.) So, they had to declare an emergency. Where, exactly, do you fail to see their shortcoming? I think they did exactly what they should have done. Don't let ATC intimidate you or run your cockpit. They work for US. And if you run off a runway that was out of wind limits, career-wise you are going to be neck-deep in a river of $hit and here comes a wave.

 

[Fins Up]

Fins... a little common sense goes a long way here.

Winds are out of limits. Crew asks for different runway. Controller says unable. Crew has the option of a) going to a different airport, if they have the fuel for it, or b) declare an emergency in order to exercise PIC authority to get a runway that is within wind limits. In this case, it appears they did not have the fuel to go to a different airport (EWR, the closest for a transcon 767 also has 22 which would have been out of limits, anything else is further.) So, they had to declare an emergency. Where, exactly, do you fail to see their shortcoming? I think they did exactly what they should have done. Don't let ATC intimidate you or run your cockpit. They work for US. And if you run off a runway that was out of wind limits, career-wise you are going to be neck-deep in a river of $hit and here comes a wave.

- The controller never said "unable". He told him to fly runway heading while he coordinated. Did you catch that there were other planes in the pattern?? Maybe he didn't want a captain who was suddenly doing his own thing in the terminal area running into another airplane.
- Whichever pilot was on the radio declared an emergency once then got pissy when the controller confirmed that. He did not declare it three times as he claimed.
- You say it appears they didn't have enough fuel.... How do you know? How would the controller have known? How would anyone have known since the subject of fuel never came up during this exchange. If it's a fuel problem, say so.

There's you're common sense. If you think they handled the so-called emergency in the best way possible then I disagree with you. Of course all we have is a short audio replay to go by.

 

[regionalcap]

- The controller never said "unable". He told him to fly runway heading while he coordinated. Did you catch that there were other planes in the pattern?? Maybe he didn't want a captain who was suddenly doing his own thing in the terminal area running into another airplane.
- Whichever pilot was on the radio declared an emergency once then got pissy when the controller confirmed that. He did not declare it three times as he claimed.
- You say it appears they didn't have enough fuel.... How do you know? How would the controller have known? How would anyone have known since the subject of fuel never came up during this exchange. If it's a fuel problem, say so.

There's you're common sense. If you think they handled the so-called emergency in the best way possible then I disagree with you. Of course all we have is a short audio replay to go by.

The controller specifically says, "If you need to get 31R, you have to declare an emergency."

There is always a lot more to a story than a short audio clip.

 

[turn&pull]

Either the Captain is a prick or they were already on Min Fuel.

 

[msmb]

Who cares...if that crew declared an emergency...that's it. They GET WHAT EVER THEY WANT!! PIC decision....end of discussion! Everyone who seconds guesses them shut up and learn what is means to be a PIC! Nice job AA crew.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Who cares...if that crew declared an emergency...that's it. They GET WHAT EVER THEY WANT!! PIC decision....end of discussion! Everyone who seconds guesses them shut up and learn what is means to be a PIC! Nice job AA crew.

I think I'm gonna start using that attitude in every flight!

FO - "Requesting push back Gate 21."

ATC - "Roger, standby for traffic in the alley."

CA - "Unable. Emergency push back. I'm a PIC! Clear everyone out of the way."



Emergency: It's not the "Easy Button."

I'm sure we'll find out in due time that they were low on fuel, and it's a good thing they landed when they did. There's a lot to find out about this flight.

This may or may not apply to this case, but in general:
Maybe we PICs need to start pushing back at the beginning of the flight. Request more fuel on the release or don't sign the thing. Fuel policies are painting us into little tiny corners.

 

[SLUF4]

sounds fishy-I don't know the whole story, but from the audio alone I don't see why they couldn't go to EWR or BOS. Unless they were reallly at emergency fuel. Then again I don't have information on the weather at the time, fuel state, or maybe there was something else abnormal going on that created a problem. If it was a fuel problem they could have just said emergency fuel or something along those lines and maybe the controller wouldn't have been so ticked off.

 

[waveflyer]

Like everyone- would love to hear the 5 minutes prior-

but if the pilots state they need 31R- they need 31R- doesn't matter if everyone else is landing 22- they should not be punished or delayed in excess.

I hope there was another reason to DAE, and we ALL know AA captains take pride in being control freak nazi's - but it shouldn't get this far to begin with- and we don't have tape far enough back to see where the break downs occurred

 

[ultrarunner]

"remove everyone from our way"????

Ok, so he breaks off the approach, says he needs 31, told to fly RH. What on earth is the issue with the inability of the flight crew to fly RH and get in a sequence. I'm gonna take a big stab that its not a crosswind issue.

I suspect the truth will come out.

 

[Caveman]

The FAA leadership is pushing pilots to the max at JFK. They are trying to satisfy their masters at the ATA to run the same schedule regardless of environmental conditions. It's the old story, just like airline managements say: "Remember, it's safety first!" but then under the table subliminal pressure pilots to "Git 'er done." At least until something goes wrong, then they hang the pilots and waive the "Safety First" letter under their noses. This is the way the US aviation system has stumbled along for decades.

I agree. I don't care why the guy declared an emergency. He did and that's that. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He had a situation that he didn't like and he did something about it. No metal got bent and no one got hurt. That's a perfect outcome. Good job Captain.

 

[SLUF4]

Yes no metal got bent, but it could have by not following instructions from ATC and basically telling everyone else to get out of the way. I just want to know how dire of a situation it was. If something crazy was happening, then kudos to him, but lets not start giving out airmanship awards just yet.

 

[xjcaptain]

To me, many just seem to have a hard time seeing somebody exercise emergency authority, and stepping up as a captain. Maybe time some took some personal reflection, and ask themselves if they are letting other people make the decisions ahead of the cockpit door. Some just seem unable to make the tough decisions without having a conference call with dispatch, chief pilots, and an ALPA rep. They got the job done, and done safely. They didn't let anybody else talk them into doing something they might have regretted later.