a question for resume writer

[bigr]

I recently went thru a series of interviews with a large corporation. actually it was 3 interviews. the 1st and 2nd interviews went awsome. then i got a call for a 3rd interview. this really surprised me as ive only had 2 interviews in the past. I felt sandbagged after the 3rd interview and i didn't get the job.

my question is...is it normal now in human resources departments to interview 3 times? It was the same questions (describe an incident when you had a conflict with a former surpervisor...blah blah blah) in each of the 3 interviews.

just wanted your incite.

 

[Resume Writer]

Big R,

I have found that it is very normal for HR to conduct 3 interviews now since the market is so competitive. My questions to you would be these:

1. Who was interviewing you in each interview? Please break it down by title in each interview. (I do not need their names; just their titles)
2. Did you feel pretty shaken because you were not expecting a third interview?
3. When did they tell you that you did not get the job? Right away or a few days later?
4. Did you send a thank you for the interview letter after each interview? Sometimes this can make the difference between getting hired or not if the decision is not made right away.

The other issue to be considered might be this. The process may have been close between you and another candidate. If three interviews is not the normal process for this company, then that could be the reason why one was conducted.

Let me know the answers to the above questions and I will see if I can shed any more light on the situation.

Kathy

 

[bigr]

Thanks for your response.

Here is the answers to your questions.

1. The first interview was conducted by the person that would have been my direct supervisor. Also there was another person that I would have worked with. I hit it off with both, and they were impressed with my experience and what I could bring the company. In short I could have hit the ground running with minimal supervision.

The second interview was with 2 ladies from HR...asking the usual HR questions. Again it went well...we had a good raport.

The third interview was with the big boss of the entire facility, one of his deputies, and the HR supervisor. I knew i was in trouble when i saw their faces (pretty grim looking...although they weren't rude). I got the impression that they didn't want to be there. I felt flustered and it went down hill from there.

2. Yes I felt shaken because of the intimidating atmosphere at the 3rd interview I wasn't expecting (an office as big as my house), and the immediate lack of raport with the people there. Since it has been years since ive interviewed, I expected more of a congenial atmosphere...not the same questions. I felt the 3rd interview was a waste of time (mine and theres).

3. I received the letter of rejection about a week later.

4. I sent well thought out thank you notes after the first 2 interviews. I did not after the 3rd...again I felt sandbagged and that they had already made up there minds...it was my way of saying thanks but no thanks.

 

[Resume Writer]

From the general impression I am getting, the third interview sounds like the classic good cop/bad cop interview. Some people do those to see how you react to other people in your environment that you may not have an immediate rapport with. I have had this happen to several clients at regional airlines. The people have come off as arrogant, rude, condescending, etc. They are designed to put you off balance to see how you handle yourself in various situations. The key is to see if you can find a common ground and turn it into your favor.

Let me give you an example of how this works in action. When I was an FA, I had a gate agent come down with the prelim paperwork and tell me that there was this really rude woman that was mad because she did not get seat 1D in First Class, but seat 1A instead. My initial reaction was, "oh great!" However, I turned my attitude around and decided that I was going to make her day. (or at least try) When she came down the jetway, I knew immediately who she was. Very gruff, shoving her stuff in the bin, etc. I was very nice to her, got her a drink - still no thawing.

She was dressed in a classic navy suit, with a pin stripe shirt and she had on a tie - except the tie was no ordinary tie. She had on a bow tie with little soldiers and teddy bears on it. (other than this tie, she looked like a woman who thinks she had to dress like a man to be taken seriously)

Just prior to takeoff, I whispered to my 2nd FA, "I bet you $5 that I have her turned around before the end of the flight." The flight was only PHX to BUR, so not a lot of time!

After we got to 10,000 ft., I looked at her and said, "Wow, that is the cutest tie I have ever seen!" Instant thaw! From that point on, we were like best buds and we even exchanged business cards at the end of the flight.

The reason I bring this example up is to illustrate that you can be in control of what happens. You let yourself get off balance and intimidated. When they saw that happening, the interview was over from the start.

I still would have sent a thank you note. You ended up breaking protocol, because you had already sent notes from the first two interviews. Even though you really did not want to work for them, you still need to do that. This business is a very small one, with people moving between airlines all the time. You never know when you may run into the same people again. So, I always tell my clients, in any situation, not to burn bridges, because you never know who will be standing guard at the next bridge you want to cross.

I hope that helps. I would certainly expect that in your interview process, if you have not met with the "head person" yet, be prepared to do so. Companies are trying to make the best decision possible for their business, so the odds of three interviews is very strong. Most companies do them all in one day and rotate the group of individuals between each of the three types of people you stated.

Kathy

 

[Timebuilder]

Great story, Kathy.

You sound like a Dale Carnegie grad!!

 

[bafanguy]

?? for Resume Writer

RW,

This exchange re this poor guy's interview gives me the "willies". I retired from a major recently and clearly remember my interview process after 30+ years...and it doesn't faintly resemble what this guy or the copilots I flew at my carrier with describe. I know it's a tough market out there for job hunters ( I AM one...sort of ), but what the heck is going on when these kinds of mind games are played ? Do these employers actually think they're ending up with a better employee ? I could tell you a story about a friend who interviewed at UAL and was treated like DIRT over, of all things, the death of her husband !!! What the heck is going on in this industry ? Just because there's a large supply of pilots is no reason to treat people like this.

I've heard about the Cathay interview...they wouildn't even hire ME to sweep out the hangar based on what I hear from people.

Your thought ?

 

[Resume Writer]

Re: ?? for Resume Writer

RW,

This exchange re this poor guy's interview gives me the "willies". I retired from a major recently and clearly remember my interview process after 30+ years...and it doesn't faintly resemble what this guy or the copilots I flew at my carrier with describe. I know it's a tough market out there for job hunters ( I AM one...sort of ), but what the heck is going on when these kinds of mind games are played ? Do these employers actually think they're ending up with a better employee ? I could tell you a story about a friend who interviewed at UAL and was treated like DIRT over, of all things, the death of her husband !!! What the heck is going on in this industry ? Just because there's a large supply of pilots is no reason to treat people like this.

I've heard about the Cathay interview...they wouildn't even hire ME to sweep out the hangar based on what I hear from people.

Your thought ?

It is not just the airlines where this is going on. I do resume writing and interview coaching for darn near every field you can imagine. It is happening everywhere. I guess maybe they are trying to "unseat" the individuals who interview well on the surface.

When I teach my interview seminars at the Career Expo for the job seekers, I am always describing the different kind of interviews that happen. What he described is what I formally call the "stress interview." But what he also described is the panel interview and the stakeholder interview.

It is so competitive out there right now that jobseekers better be on their toes. I try to prepare my clients for every possible scenario. Once people understand the "psychology" behind the interview questions and what they are "really" asking, then they have an advantage.

I am glad that the question was asked so that others can hopefully gain some benefit from the answers I have provided.


Kathy

 

[Resume Writer]

Great story, Kathy.

You sound like a Dale Carnegie grad!!

Nope, just a graduate from life training and YEARS of customer service!

Kathy

 

[bafanguy]

RW,

Thanks for your answer; you're obviously a peson who knows whereof she speaks. And since you handle more than aviation and have a basis for comparison, is there anything inherently different in a pilot interview that would make the process different from the business/office candidate ? Obviously, pilots have a technical background that can be substantiated by sim checks, logbooks, licenses, FAA background checks, etc. This wouldn't be part of the process we're talking about here since if you're sitting in an interview, this other stuff must check out.

I still don't get the "mind games" angle. So you get some guy in there and fluster him with some "good-cop-bad-cop" game, does this really tell you anything about his performance in an airplane ?

This process may appear to tell an employer something, but I'd have my doubts about THAT. Some of the finest aviators I've ever seen in my 35 years of airline flying didn't have a particularly good "Dog & Pony Show" presentation.

 

[Flymach2]

Originally posted by Resume Writer

Nope, just a graduate from life training and YEARS of customer service!

Hi...

That seems to be what Dale Carnegie attempts to instill the client. Unfortunately, most people don't always learn from life lessons and subsequently need a motivational speaker to help them see what they should have already learned. Keep up the great work, Kathy...and thank you.

Regards

 

[Resume Writer]

RW,

Thanks for your answer; you're obviously a peson who knows whereof she speaks. And since you handle more than aviation and have a basis for comparison, is there anything inherently different in a pilot inverview that would make the process different from the business/office candidate ? Obviously, pilots have a technical background that can be substantiated by sim checks, logbooks, licenses, FAA background checks, etc. This wouldn't be part of the process we're talking about here since if you're sitting in an interview, this other stuff must check out.

I still don't get the "mind games" angle. So you get some guy in there and fluster him with some "good-cop-bad-cop" game, does this really tell you anything about his performance in an airplane ?

This process may appear to tell an employer something, but I'd have my doubts about THAT. Some of the finest aviators I've ever seen in my 35 years of airline flying didn't have a particularly good "Dog & Pony Show" presentation.

The reasoning behind the good cop/bad cop scenario is to see how people react in a stressful situation, which is very telling. If I am hiring you for a position that requires the safety of people and their lives, then I want to know that no matter what I do, I cannot rattle you.

As far as interview processes being similar - yes they are. Most every employer does behavioral questions (ie., you suspect your Captain is drinking) and then situational questions (tell us about a time when). It is just modified based upon the type of job. Those questions are not the same at all. Each one requires a different type of answer. You would be amazed at how many people cannot think on their feet.

I had a client recently that had NO common sense. She was going for a Flight Attendant interview. I knew about half way through the interview prep that she was not going to make it past the initial screen. She simply could not think on her feet. So, I continued to prepare her for other types of interviews, really focusing on the situational type customer service questions, explaining to her the reasons behind the questions and helping her to formulate answers. She did not make it through the initial screen for a Flight Attendant, however, she did get a great job as a Retail Manager. So, all was not lost.

Kathy

 

[bafanguy]

RW,

Thanks again. I guess my reality doesn't jive with theirs, but at this point, it doesn't need to ( thank God ). I've seen too many "unflusterable ( is that a word ? )" aviators who wouldn't successfully dance the dance you describe so I'm a hard-sell on this whole interview philosophy you describe. And, in the typical pilot fashion, I'll put more faith in my real-world experience ( and those of countless other pilots better than I ) than their theories. But, as they control the outcome, it'll be done their way. " So be it" as we're fond of saying in some parts of the flybiz. Thanks again.

 

[Resume Writer]

RW,

Thanks again. I guess my reality doesn't jive with theirs, but at this point, it doesn't need to ( thank God ). I've seen too many "unflusterable ( is that a word ? )" aviators who wouldn't successfully dance the dance you describe so I'm a hard-sell on this whole interview philosophy you describe. And, in the typical pilot fashion, I'll put more faith in my real-world experience ( and those of countless other pilots better than I ) than their theories. But, as they control the outcome, it'll be done their way. " So be it" as we're fond of saying in some parts of the flybiz. Thanks again.

I think real world experience is very valuable. But not everyone, as I said, can think on their feet. You would be truly amazed at some of the answers that came out of people when I was interviewing as a Recruiter. They simply did not understand the psychology behind the question.

I recently prepped a pilot for the Horizon interview. One question that he got from the gouge on aviationinterviews.com had to do with "cutting corners" in order to get something done. I saw the writing on the wall. What they were looking for was an answer that NOTHING should be done to jeopardize safety, as his life and the life of his passengers would be at stake if he did not follow procedures. (the answer we formulated though was not that - we came up with something much more detailed) When people cut corners they make mistakes. This could be easily applied to a manufacturing production environment. If someone were to cut corners, someone could end up with a grave injury.

Well, time to go back to the NASCAR race on TV while the baby is sleeping!

Kathy

 

[bafanguy]

K,

Thanks for being so generous with your expertise. This is a subject that has interested me since I started hearing some of these interview horror stories. But I never had access to anyone who knew the score. If you don't mind, can I ask another question?

This intense grilling and stump-the-dummy game seems to be a fairly new interview scheme ( the last 10-15 years ). I've only had two interviews in my life with the last being in 1972, so what do I know about anything ? But it seems to me that to start this line of interviewing, they must believe they end up with a somehow better product or else, why do it ? People have been hiring pilots for 80 years; have they been wrong in their priorities and methods all this time...and if so, what supports that thesis ?

The airplanes, aside from some technological upgrades, are essentially the same, the weather and airports are the same, the regulatory demands, the same. Most importantly, the demands and responsibilities on a crew are the same and cannot change due to the inherent nature of flying. So, to change their methodology now must indicate they need to hire a somehow "different" person and all of us who didn't dance like the organ-grinder's monkey just fell through the cracks and are luck we didn't end up in a smoking hole in the ground.

You're just the messenger and I can't take exception to anything you say...you're the expert. Anything you can tell me will be of great interest. Thansk

 

[bobbysamd]

Stump the dummy and stress interviews

This intense grilling and stump-the-dummy game seems to be a fairly new interview scheme ( the last 10-15 years ). I've only had two interviews in my life with the last being in 1972, so what do I know about anything ? But it seems to me that to start this line of interviewing, they must believe they end up with a somehow better product or else, why do it ? People have been hiring pilots for 80 years; have they been wrong in their priorities and methods all this time...and if so, what supports that thesis ?

Thanks, always, to Resume Writer for her excellent comments and insights!

Stump-the-dummy and stress interviews are more common than you'd think. Perhaps my Mesa Airlines interview "experience" could have been either or both.

I interviewed with Grady Reed, the VP of Operations at Mesa, in 1990. At the end of that interview, he asked if I had any questions. I asked if Mesa was planning to acquire RJs. At that time, ERJs and CRJs were being developed. I had read about them in professional pilot magazines. His answer was a very gruff "no." He was obviously annoyed by my question. A few days later, I received a rejection letter. I felt I asked a legitimate question, as witnessed later by how Mesa became an ERJ and CRJ operator, and later still when it places 300-hour MAPD grads in the right seats of these aircraft! Lesson learned: Do not ask questions when invited to during interviews. You are being offered a gambit; do not accept it.

An early lawfirm interview could have been a form of stress interview. I had been brought in on relatively short notice (called early in the afternoon, told to come in later that afternoon) for a paralegal interview. I was first interviewed by the office manager, whom I liked immediately. Then, one partner interviewed me. Then, another. I was tested on the lawfirm's WordPerfect software. I was sent home. I sent my thank-you notes that evening to arrive the next day.

A few days later, I was brought in to interview with the principal partner. The office manager was present as the principal asks me all kinds of irrelevant, illegal questions. I was furious with the questioning, but still hoped to get an offer because I was looking for work.

Several days later, the office manager delivered my rejection phone call. I told her how annoyed I was at the partner's line of questioning. She agreed with me and stated that she had warned the partner not to ask such questions.

As it turns out, several days after that, I was offered a contract position at that lawfirm, which I accepted. Five weeks after that, I was offered, and accepted, permanent employment. I stayed at this lawfirm about four and a half years; I was ready to leave after two and a half of those years.

I have learned throughout the years that a company's interview process provides a glimpse into the company's culture and operation. My interview at that firm seemed to have been arranged with little forethought and structure. The lawfirm generally operated with little forethought and structure, and with much duplication of effort. It pays to heed what you observe at your interview.

Perhaps stress interviews have their place if a CEO is being hired or Donald Trump is doing the hiring. Not for an entry-level paralegal position.

 

[bafanguy]

Bobbysamd,

Man, there's gotta be a million stories like yours. Let me tell you how it was in 1972:

A morning at the shrink's office where I did hours of "would you rather...or...", showed 'em I could tell which gear D turns when gear A turns CCW, even took a vocabulary test !!

Talk to the shrink: He opens with " My, you're a tall one...", followed with, "Where'd you go to college ?", followed with, "You did a lot better on the vocabulary test than the others". I stare blankly, thinking I glad I have a flying job already.

Back to the airport and see the Emplyoment guy: He says, "Well, you have any questions ?" "Nope", says I.

Now to the flight ops guy ( he doesn't really want to look up from his desk, so I knock on the door frame ), I enter and remain standing. He says, "What ya been flyin" ?" "737", says I. He says, "OK, you'll be hearing from us in two weeks one way or the other." A month later I was sitting in class.

And this was in 1972...pilots were swarming like roaches...very well qualified pilots. This was THE airline to work for ( still is ).

So, tell me what's different now...

 

[Resume Writer]

I can only take a guess of why this all started. First, there were only so many questions you could ask people for a long time, which really told you nothing about them as a person or how they reacted in situations. Second, as customer service and crew resource management started coming into play more, I think that started some of it. Also, it really depends on the corporate culture where you are applying as to the interview process, although more and more, they are using these type of scenarios to weed people out.

I can only assume that they think they are getting a better qualified person, who can get along with other people. I know at my previous airline, there were some individuals who are notorious for not getting along well with others in sand boxes. These are the same people that show up on everyone's "no fly" list. I think they are trying to eliminate these kind of people.

I will pose this question to some of my current HR friends and see if I can get an answer to their theory. I am going to be at a Career Expo speaking again on Tuesday, so I will have a captive audience. (there will be a certain airline in attendance, so I will make sure I ask them during the employer luncheon) I will report back my findings!

Kathy

 

[bafanguy]

K,

It'll be interesting to hear what they have to say. These folks affect people's lives in unalterable ways so you'd hope they have very logical, scientific reasons for the way they do things.

 

[bobbysamd]

H.R. Koneheads

It'll be interesting to hear what they have to say. These folks affect people's lives in unalterable ways so you'd hope they have very logical, scientific reasons for the way they do things.

Seconded. Try "change people's lives."

I've been extremely critical of H.R. I would submit that most H.R. types lack the intelligence, wherewithal and, most of all, perception to think outside of the box and to give quality people a chance. It's easy to fit square pegs into square holes; fitting round pegs into square holes is the challenge. Most H.R. refuse that challenge. I understand that management puppeteers may be pulling their strings.

I'm delighted that Resume Writer has come to our side of the desk. I, too, will look forward to her report.

 

[bafanguy]

Resume Writer !!!

You won't believe the spooky coincidence after our previous discussion. I wanted to do something productive around the house and saw the yard needed mowing, and the following happened:

Me: Hey, Dream Date, the grass is pretty tall, how about I mow the yard.

Wife: Well, maybe. First, tell me about your worst yard-mowing mistake and how you resolved it.

Me: Well, uh, ah, OH!! Remember our dog, Tripod ? Well...

Wife: Thank you...that's fine. I'll be in touch.

Well, long story short, she hired the kid next door !! I was crushed because I really wanted to mow the yard and felt I was qualified as I'm typed on the Snapper AND Troy-Built and have mowed 23,000 yards.

But, she did that "good wife-bad wife" thing on me and I got flustered. I just didn't expect such grilling. I guess I don't think fast enough on my couch. The kid next door doesn't sit on his couch much and therefore thinks faster when he does even though he only has experience on an old 2-wheeled push mower.

Two of our neighbors have grass too so I'm going to ask them if I can mow THEIR yard. But, my confidence is crushed, and the kid next door has a "gouge", but won't give it to me.

What should I do ????