A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[flyguppy]

FlyingFarmer

You talk big but I bet you don't have the balls to post your name, airline, and JB application number.....

If you don't like what we do or don't do, go work somewhere else. If you think that WE, the little "start up" carrier are "changing the industry", then thank you for the compliment.

Thanks also for the unique names you chose for me/us. I enjoyed the laugh.... Sorry, gotta go clean an airplane now.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah. "Thank you" for "changing the industry"?

OK........

Thank you for setting the bar low. For making this a "decent" job, with a "decent" wage, instead of the prestigious job it used to be. Thank you for allowing yourself to be paid less than what you deserve. (And work more hours for it, to boot!)

Not sure why anyone would try to get in this industry now. Work your axx off for a measly $100K/year? NOT WHAT A MAJOR AIRLINE CAPTAIN SHOULD BE MAKING! The whole thing is headed right for the crapper.

THANK YOU!!

 

[learob]

what all you other airline guys fail to understand is that we dont care what you think. The same way we do not care what you do. As for this being the worst thing ever are you all forgeting at Delta did Hawaii Turns from LAX in the DC10 where were you guys then? Will this happen, maybe maybe not. But I will tell you what if we the pilot group do not like it, it will not happen for long.

Anyway hey general did you not say that Song would put us out of business? If that is the case then it will never happen so why worry.

 

[JayDub]

[BThank you for setting the bar low. For making this a "decent" job, with a "decent" wage, instead of the prestigious job it used to be. Thank you for allowing yourself to be paid less than what you deserve. (And work more hours for it, to boot!)...
The whole thing is headed right for the crapper.

THANK YOU!! [/B]

This from a a professional in the industry where we can't even acknowledge with a nod a pilot from another airline walking through the terminal. Gawd forbid one with a "lower status" than our own, like some "icky" regional!

Have you ever been to Europe and seen how the public treats pilots? No, the disrespect you have seen goes so much deeper than perceived inadequacies of the JetBlue Pilots' contract, or their actions. All this happened long before some upstart like JetBlue ever entered the fray.

Boeing Man,

I won't even dignify your post with a response. It's a shame how much respect I've lost for you in the last week.

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[MDP727]

At ATA we have many long turns. DTW-PVR-DTW, MDW- ARU-MDW, LAX-HNL-LAX the list goes on. We carry an IO, unfortunately, if the feds by off on this those days are over. ATA already pushes envelopes with aircraft that most airlines don't. Rest assured our management team will be all over this one.
For you guys at Jet Blue, do you really have a choice? Who's in your corner on this one? Possibly the FAA? Are any of you really in any capacity at all to stand up to management over there about anything? I'm just curious how it would affect your 5 year contracts.

 

[Dizel8]

MDP727,

I will gladly bet my bottom dollar, that the pilots at jetBlue
have more pull with management, than any other airline, the exception being perhaps SWA.

The topic of the five year contract has been beaten to death already, so the only thing I will say,is that it is a nonissue.

 

[George Jetson]

Very interesting thread with many interesting ideas and opinions.

Here's one of my thoughts.

0700 departure to LGB from JFK. The crew was probably up at 0330 or so, give or take. Arrival at LGB at 1000. The 1 hour turn suddenly turns into a 3 hour ground-stop back into JFK due to WX/Flow/ATC/etc. So the 1100 departure is now a 2pm departure for a 11pm arrival. Drive home.....by 1am. Ouch, up for almost 24 hours.

Now if that ground stop was even longer....would JBLU have a relief crew standing by so when the 320 taxies back in due to the crew turning into pumpkins, they can still get the flight out?

GJ

PS - For the record...I think Duty Time AND Rest Requirements are still the biggest problem that we as pilots face. The fact that 8 hours of rest is still considered legal is a JOKE...as is 14 extendable to 16 of duty. Why not 10-12? 9 hours AT the hotel should be FAA minimum rest...so in reality, more like 10 or 11 hours of minimum rest. Unfortunately, the ATA would lobby HARD since the airlines would have to hire another 20% pilots due to the dramatic cost increases by such a provision.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Have you ever been to Europe and seen how the public treats pilots? No, the disrespect you have seen goes so much deeper than perceived inadequacies of the JetBlue Pilots' contract, or their actions. All this happened long before some upstart like JetBlue ever entered the fray.


Respectfully,

JayDub

so it is ok to keep lowering the bar, since pilots in europe and here are treated like cheeeeet....and since it happened long before jb came along.....huh??????????

come on! is there any jb pilot who thinks this is bad? or are they afraid to be not appearing to play ball? unbelievable!!!!!!!

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman, you are out of line. Period.

Oh I don’t think so.

I know Bluedude. I know my peers. I know myself. We are not scabs, nor do we subscribe to that philosophy. To infer that we would act thusly simply because we debate an issue on this board is ludicrous. There is no incentive to "screw our co-workers," nor to hose pilots within the profession.

I counted 4 (four) we’s in the above paragraph You might recall that my post to Messer. Bluedude was an analogy solely directed at him. The key word there was ANALOGY.
What is truly sad about the above paragraph. The fact is you will hose pilots within the profession with this stupid idea. Your comrade Mr. Bluedude went out of his way to make it clear it didn’t matter what ramifications you folks could do to others within the profession. Of course I hit a nerve with that since his comments about ALPA and such show that he is just bitter from some real or perceived hosing from the past.

Might I also add you friend make jabs at the collective idea us all in this togethor as a "profession".

To blatantly lump JetBlue pilots into a pool of those willing to sell out to the mighty dollar--which is what this really boils down to--is generalizing far beyond your intellect.

Come on. This is nothing but an argument for “almighty dollar” and trying to fix a lousy scheduling practice at your airline. Once again, I have never “blatantly lumped” JB pilots as scabs. I did say that one of your boys comes across like one. If you feel the need to sensitize the discussion and apply it to all of your comrades, that sounds like a personal problem. And one that needs some reflection in front of the mirror.

I for one am not convinced that this extended turn concept is a good idea. I have learned a few interesting (and informative) points from this thread. There are indeed other factors that must be brought into play when the final determination is made. And, most importantly, I am willing to keep my mind open to the concept and weigh all factors, only then making a decision. This is a good thing, eh? Haven't we all learned something during this thread discourse?

A good idea? The only good idea is for something you “claim” it is not about. The almighty dollar. If it looks like a duck…………………

What slays me is the somewhat narrow view taken by a few on this board. I won't name names any more than I've done thus far, but is this debate really about "me, me, me?" Like the Age 60 rule, many of the arguments esposed here smack of the "what is best for me" concept. Your concern for our welfare smacks of false promise. Don't many of these arguments revolve around how this proposal would change the industry, not JetBlue?

I could care less about JB. You can wither and die on the vine or become the best thing since sliced bread. Point is, you guys start screwing with something so obvious as to cause harm to others, you will become the pariahs of the industry.

And it is not about me me me. It is about us us us as a collective profession. If you people are so blinded that you can’t see that then you will be in for a very rude awakening someday.

I readily accept the QOL vs. safety debate in the context of this extended flying day. There may be validity in the concept of how today's management treats us vice management in place 10 years from now. These are issues that must be sifted and debated.

Being in this industry for a long time I can assure it is more than a maybe on the part of fatigue and safety. Not to mention the fact that you never, ever get in bed with management. You’re making a deal with the devil.

However there is no room in my logic for extended arguments over how this policy will affect the rest of the industry like a virus. I am open to other examples of this having taken place. There probably are a few--I'm frankly looking for illustrations here.

Your logic is handicapped by your limited exposure to this industry then. Coupled with a hefty dose of euphoria by your success to date. Like I said before, don’t think that things will stay forever like they are now. I hesitate to say this because you boys are so sensitive over there about any issues or advice that doesn’t match your agenda.

What about precedents from JetBlue? Has our profit sharing model (something that rewards the bottom line) swept the industry? Has the reliance on laptops (a move that makes tremendous economic sense in many areas) made its way across the carriers? How does a carrier fill jets without overbooking? Why hasn't the concept behind that policy filtered down?

What in the hell are you babbling about? I’m not talking about (nor do I care) about your laptops or other issues. We’re talking about pilot stuff here and how it directly relates and may cause potential harm to your peers in the industry. All of you have conveniently ignored the pointed questions about fixing an onerous scheduling policy with a contract that would prevent such abuses. After all, if it is not about the “almighty dollar” than why complain? Oh, I forgot, it was productivity right? Well here is a newsflash, the two go hand in hand.

The proposal to fly consecutive transcons is rather problematic--we need to look at that one carefully.

The point is, and you keep missing it, you shouldn’t be looking at it at all.

We are inventive for sure, opportunist perhaps.

But no one should liken us to scabs.

Another post with “we” and “us” indicating a reference to the group. Again, for the sake of argument, it was an analogy (and a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fine one) towards one individual’s comments on the board.

Boeing man,

You really think doing a JFK-SJU turn is unsafe?

Not at all. I made reference to the fact that if it was scheduled on the back side of the clock.

[/QUOTE]

Boeing Man,

I won't even dignify your post with a response. It's a shame how much respect I've lost for you in the last week.

JayDub

Oh well Jay, it was an opinion and I’m entitled to it.

I twisted nothing. "8 in 24" is inaccurate and a misnomer. That's all I said or meant to say, and you argued the point. I'm done.

I argued the point? By saying “I beg to differ”? LOL, you’re a piece of work

Of course I read correctly. You didn't call me a scab, but you did indeed equate me to a scab, or at least a probable scab. If I cross a picket line, you have the right to call me that. It'll never happen, but until then you are out of line.

Nope. Like I said, not in it’s purest form, but your mindset is no different.

OK, the flight time exemption may be a bad idea. There's plenty of evidence to suggest it may be. I don't know, all the facts aren't in. Thanks to all those who contributed. But the mere fact that it would deviate from established practice at other airlines does not in and of itself bother me in the slightest. In the context you implied, acting scab-like is just an uglier term for being non-conformist. How dare we think outside the box? How dare we go against the will of the herd? How dare we potentially make life more difficult for someone at another airline? You're darn right I'm more interested in this airline than yours. Is that selfish? No more selfish than in any pilot group. I'll not do anything that intentionally harms pilots from other airlines, but my first loyalty isn't to them or some nebulous concept like "the profession."

You’re grasping here sport. It has nothing to do with you JB elites being “non conformists”. Please tell me you really don’t believe that and it is just a limp wrested attempt to justify a really bad idea.

You’re being two faced if you think this will not harm other pilot groups, or perhaps you’re just a neophyte with a lot to learn about the airline industry, contracts dishonest management groups. Trust me pal, your days in bed with management will come to an end.

Look in the mirror, pal. We're not in the business of screwing over our fellow pilot. ALPA on the other hand seems to have specialized in it of late.

Where and when did ALPA get into the conversation. Oh yes, you keep gringing it up. Like I said to flip, if you have some axe to grind fine. So do I. But when you keep trying to make your point about this by bringing up irrelevant shots at the union, it makes your argument look even weaker.

Boeingman,

AMEN

Thank you sir. I’ve noticed that anyone inside this JB operation doesn’t seem to have a problem with this. I can understand the new guys to the airline environment thinking this would be a great deal on paper, but for some of the airline retreads over there it is simply shocking.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Originally posted by whoever:
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Thank you for allowing yourself to be paid less than what you deserve.
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Yeah, taking a job sure makes you a creep.



After seeing the level of "professionalism" demonstrated here, I can't help but feel that the JB guys are sounding more lucid.

Whoever made the point about pilots who spend a good part of the day commuting and then spend the night doing a stand-up with little sleep should definitely stay out of this argument. That is if it is really about safety. I tend to think not.

Why not allow the exemption only if it followed by comp rest - or put a 10-in-24 limit on it or something. (Since we have all now ned that there is no 8-in-24 limit).

Thaankfully, calmer heads will prevail, and the FAA will likely be very cautious about such an exemption. The understand precedent too, you know.

Sound like a good idea, in some ways. I'd be willing to do that sked, provided it was front side of the clock only.

 

[AKAAB]

I'm amazed at the level of inane speculation about JB's possible exemption to the 8 hour flight day. I've read all of the posts and no one here has even gotten slightly close to the truth - including JB pilots! Baseless speculation is a waste of all of our time.

You can continue to argue about your various points if you choose to do so, but it is all imagined evils and made-up demons. Until you see just what the exemption entails, what the controls and protocols are, and what the scientific data is to support or detract from the application, you are simply tilting at windmills.

JB is not afraid to think outside of the box and look for solutions to problems. Simply assuming something can't be done, or shouldn't be explored because the rest of the industry thinks so is not the JB culture. That said, many ideas that never make it to these JB bashing boards are proposed, studied, and rejected.

What I do know is that Emery (Teamsters?) had almost the same program in 1995. Funny, I don't remember much chatter about them ruining the industry. Is that because they were union? (What year did they unionize?) This idea was originally proposed by JB pilots, not management. Before I saw some of the particulars of the program, I was just as concerned as some others are. However, if what I've been told comes to pass, the program will benefit the pilots in a safe manner, create the opportunity for more quality-of-life, not change the staffing levels one iota, and will save some hotel costs - which is good for my profit sharing.

Ultimately, if the program is approved, tested, and adopted, it will still be up to the pilots to decide if it is better than morning-out, daytime sleep, and redeye back to base. If the pilot group is not happy with it, like some other programs that have been tested, it will be ended. However, I would be greatly surprised if that happens.

AKAAB