A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[IB6 UB9]

This is the purpose of a Union, to stop crap like this from happening. Oh wait....Jet Blue doesn't have one!

Why do airlines have unions?

 

[IB6 UB9]

Why do airlines have unions?

Well...let me take a stab at that. Is it so your rusty sherriff's badge doesn't look like a train drove through it? Fortunately we don't have that problem over here yet. Yet? If that time comes we'll be sure to get the number off our furloughed cards and make the call!

 

[FNG320]

This is the purpose of a Union, to stop crap like this from happening. Oh wait....Jet Blue doesn't have one!

Hey,
If we at JB want this, let us do what we want. IF we had an inhouse union, our members would vote yes on this. Let your union protect you from the change if you don't like it. (just like scope clauses, hour limits, etc). Or just like the age 60 rule (oh, they have changed their position on that recently haven't they......) Unless you don't think your union is worth a crap.

Just my opinion....

FNG

 

[heilhaavir]

Dizel8, in one of your posts you wrote: <<They wish to do Hawaii out and backs>>. That was already the case @ ATA/Omni/Ryan/Southern and actually anybody who wants to do it since done under Intl rules.......

 

[Dizel8]

Dizel8, in one of your posts you wrote: <<They wish to do Hawaii out and backs>>. That was already the case @ ATA/Omni/Ryan/Southern and actually anybody who wants to do it since done under Intl rules.......

I heard it was Hawaiian or Aloha looking for this, but I stand corrected, thank you. I guess the body gets less tired if it is Int'l, however, are we talking two or three pilot crews?

 

[Falconjet]

A point of correction for the ALPA haters at jB: ALPA has not changed their position on the age 60 rule. They have simply started an information campaign to enlighten the membership on the origins and background of the age 60 rule. The plan is to inform the membership and THEN poll the membership on what they think of the age 60 rule. After polling the membersip it is quite possible that they may change their position on the age 60 rule. At this time ALPA has NOT changed its stance in regard to the age 60 rule.

Over a year ago I promised the blue koolaid drinkers that I would mind my own business about jetBlue and what I thought about some of their policies. I have lived up to that promise. If you are going to take a cut at ALPA (which I would argue you have every right to do EVEN if you aren't a member - free country right, even though I wasn't supposed to comment on jetBlue since I didn't work there) you should at least have your facts straight.

By the way, I am against any changes or exemptions that increase either the 8 hours per day or duty time limits per day.

Just my humble opinion.

Again, best of luck to all the folks at jetBlue.

FJ

 

[Dizel8]

At this time JB has NOT changed its stance in regard to the 8 hr limit!

They have commenced research on the circadian rhythm issue and after those facts are in, they will then determine their course of action. It is very possible, that they will not endorse changing the limits.

NASA has long recommended, that pilots be allowed to take short naps in the cockpit, however, the FAA has strenously disregarded this, even though it is practiced overseas and that it has been proven alertness is increased.

We all know, that rather nasty schedules can be built. Schedules that are very fattiguing and that can wreak havoc on the body, the FAA and the airlines has been dragging their feet on this. DW even mentioned his dispproval for the lack of a NPRM. Before you go shooting from he hip and calling all JB pilots stupid, let's at least have a look at the data. Who knows, it may show that an overhaul is needed, without changes to the 8 hr rule and this might prompt the FAA to finally take action, as they did with he Whitlow letter!

 

[8vATE]

A point of correction for the ALPA haters at jB: ALPA has not changed their position on the age 60 rule. They have simply started an information campaign to enlighten the membership on the origins and background of the age 60 rule. The plan is to inform the membership and THEN poll the membership on what they think of the age 60 rule. After polling the membersip it is quite possible that they may change their position on the age 60 rule. FJ

Wow..

this thread comes back to life...
from when...?
January??

Hey Falcon..
I still get the ALPA mag..

don't you really think the "informational campaign" is just positioning to save face...?

No one can argue that things have changed..

Going to 62-63 looks very doable...

Scary part is if we have to adopt European standards of physicals...
Resembling the old AMR interview physical..

Don't know how many people will want to sign off on that...
But 62-63 may not require that drastic of a rewrite of the regs...

????

I feel bad for a LOT of guys...
The USAirways guys are screwed....
Nothing like expecting an 80-90k pension and then be looking at $25,000/yr..

That is CRIMINAL....


this 8 in 24 exemption is being very suspiciously looked at by most in the jb group... esp the guys from the majors, commuters and cargo..
we've seen these "fantastic" ideas bite us in the butt..

but all the research seems to be on the up and up... the same guy who did the NASA research in the 90s....

and theoretically the 8+ hour trips are going to be very tightly built and watched....

FWIW...

 

[heilhaavir]

I heard it was Hawaiian or Aloha looking for this, but I stand corrected, thank you. I guess the body gets less tired if it is Int'l, however, are we talking two or three pilot crews?

You are correct, doesn't make it less tiring, just allowed by the regs. On a 3 man crew airplane it's one crew and on a 2 man crew an additional crewmember is required. (approx 10hrs round trip)

Amazingly enough, under Intl rules, Flt Attendants have more restrictive rules than us. FA's have duty time requirements and we have flt time requirements in 24, 48 & 72 hrs respectively. Fortunately for us our contract is more restrictive than the FARs

 

[Spooky 1]

Hawaii turns

Yaks,

Why is it a dumb idea? Is it better to mess up your body clock. Is it worse than commuting in one the same day and then doing a redeye transcon or "pond" jump. Both of which is done frquently by crewmembers.

Flying Farmer,

No, jetBlue does not exist in a vacuum and btw, we are not the only carrier petition the FAA for this, apparently one of the majors have been interested for years. They wish to do Hawaii out and backs. Not sure where you get ten days off a month from, but the jetBlue pilots have at least 14, with the average days of around 16 and senior pilots just shy of 18, this while flying 75-80 hrs a month. Productivity is rather high and the pilot group has endorsed this. Most people here prefer to be home with their families, as I am sure you do.

PLS,

As someone said, the exemption would apply to jetBlue and would be restricted to daylight transcons, with limits on legs and landings, ie 2 legs, 2 landings. I think that is better than flying out in the morning, "resting 12 hours, then flying a redeye back.
Certainly is a lot better than "standups", you know where you fly three hours, go to the hotel for 6 and then fly three hours back. Quite legal, but very hard on the body.

The studies done by NASA supports that from a scientific stand point, just like NASA endorses powernaps as does quite a few foreign carriers.

I would gladly see the FAA raise the 30 in 7, to perhaps 35 in seven. The 30 in 7 rule made sense when prop planes was involved, but with the advent of quiter, more ergonomic cockpits, I believe it would be as safe. Would rather see a reduction in duty limits from 16 to 14 and believe that would enhance safety more.

Not sure where you have been all this time but airlines have been doing HNL turns for years now. And yes it will give you lines of time with only 10 working days. Typically go very senior.

A little piece of history here. Back in the good old days when the DC7 was first introduced at AA, it took 10 hours non-stop to fly from LAX to JFK (IDL). AA had the aircraft first and wanted relief from the 8 hour rules in place at that time. UAL was at a serious competitive disadvantage and balked at any such relief for AA. Finally after a cat fight between AA, ALPA and UAL there was relief granted. The bitterness behind this event was one of, if not the most significant cause of AA pulling out of ALPA.

 

[Realistic]

INFO ALERT! It has been said that jetBlue pilots support this. I don't remember a vote here but I can assure you that not ALL jetBlue pilots support this. Senior (East Coast) pilots are jumping up and down about it. It will complement the 90 hour lines with time-and-a-half very nicely.
It has also been said that these trips will go senior. Yes they will - and the ones that fall out during irop/sick calls will go very junior - all the way to the reserve who's trying to make a two leg commute to Kennedy work with 12 days off.
The response from our management is that "we don't differentiate between a pilot who elects to commute and the pilot on Long Island who's spending the day with his family. Each pilot has the responsibility to arrive rested for any trip that may become available." Where have I heard this before?
In addition - our "Alertness Management Program" will provide some solid science to prove that reserves should have no problem with double duty as long as they use the "strategies" that come out of this program.
No - let's make sure we vote on this when we know what's really going to happen.

 

[Realistic]

As far as additional "safety" enhancements to our current schedules...

I challenge anybody (when all is said and done) to find a specific change in our schedules that would hurt jetBlue economically. Then I challenge you (when all is said and done) to find the pilots who's lives have been changed for the better and the pilots who's lives have been changed for the worse.
I think you will find the same group of have's and have-not's that we have today.
Don't let anyone convince you that this is only about day turns for senior guys. We are opening the WHOLE can of worms on this one and we might see some interesting "improvements" to things like reserve rules, redeyes, etc.

 

[PastFastMover]

Jetblue320,
Getting greedy so that 20 of your pilots can get lines that give them more days off, while other airlines might exploit this new rule change or exemption is wrong.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Great post and what I think this is all about. Me me me. What, it may effect others in a major way.... well.... it is good for me. LCCs like to cherry pick the routes, why would anyone think that the pilots would not want to cherry pick a limited small scale turn around for themselves. What.... you now have to fly 8 legs... well we (me) don't have to do that. That is not what we had in mind at all. We (me) just want a good deal for a couple of us, we really didn't mean to change the world for others.

 

[Spooky 1]

Pefrect example of pork

Blue Dude,

On ATL--NRT flights (14 hrs enroute) we do have two Captains and two FOs---and those flights are certainly long enough and full of fatigue. (I haven't flown them myself, but have been told that it is tough to get alert again descending into NRT--especially in typhoon season....) But, if you guys started flying those route, I bet you would change some rules there, too. Give me a break----8 hrs of Southwest flying (15 min breaks between flights) or 8 hrs of Delta flying (2 hrs between flights --so it really equals 14 hrs of duty time)--both suck. Throw in bad wx somewhere in the country, and those Long haul LGB--JFK, or LGB--FLL, or LGB--IAD flights will become tougher, and unless you are a superman, like most of you claim, concentrating fully on descent in your last leg will be tough. Sure, things like Continuous duty overnights are also full of fatigue, but there are limits on those in most contracts too. The most important thing here is that you would be changing a rule that was made to protect the majority of non-superman pilots (probably like me)--who want to be safe and alert. That really can never be gaurunteed----but the rule was made for a reason. Changing it for your benefit will allow others to exploit it too. Failing to see that means you are just full of yourself--not caring about others. But hey, you have great morale at Jetblue----gung ho!!!!

Dizel8,

I am not at the top of our payscale, but I would like to have the chance to make more. We will resolve the jumpseat deal eventually. I wish everyone could make more money----and the bar does rest on us right now--and you know that. Maybe we should all fall down to your level and all move into one huge apartment building in Yonkers. I hope the pizza is good in that area.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The practice of operating this ATL/NRT flight with two Captains is a perfect example of what is still wrong with Delta's cost structure. This does nothing to enhance the saftey of this particular flight. What it does is significantly increase the costs reletive to the bottom line. Three F/O's all type rated in the equipment provde for all the safety that this operation requires. Adding a second Captain does little if anything to enhance the safety. I am amazed that this practice survived the recent contract overhaul at Delta. Shame on them for alowing this to continue.

 

[8vATE]

INFO ALERT! It has been said that jetBlue pilots support this. I don't remember a vote here but I can assure you that not ALL jetBlue pilots support this. Senior (East Coast) pilots are jumping up and down about it. It will complement the 90 hour lines with time-and-a-half very nicely.
It has also been said that these trips will go senior.

Nice move Realistic..

Cut and Pasting the SAME POSTS ...
TWO NO LESS

IN TWO DIFFERENT THREADS.

and still harping on haves and have nots...

senior vs. junior.
commuter vs. non commuter
military vs. commercial

mgt. vs. labor
reserve vs. lineholder

us vs. them

and you didn't understand what when you got hired..

jetblue has incentive based pay..
you make MORE when you fly MORE...

what don't you understand..

oh..

you want to make MORE for flying less....

great idea!!

 

[Realistic]

We would all LOVE to fly more. Can you help us out?

 

[Echopapa]

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

Ok two questions...

1. Is it always daylight at 9 PM EST? I don't think so....

2. If you block out at 8 in the morning, you have to show at 7, you have to leave your house at 6, and your getting up at ....say 5:30. You land at 9PM EST (in the dark of course), takes 20 mins to get to your car, and an hour drive home. So your back home at 1020. BEST CASE.

So you do two of these "day flights" in a row and you get rest from 1020 - 5:30? Thats assuming of course that you get home, close the door, and immediately fall asleep. No dinner, no time to talk to the kids, no time to read the paper...all for only 7 hours of genuine rest.

Now how about the real world....weather on the east coast...add 3 hour delay, maintenance problem....45 mins, fog in L.A.....2 hours....

This is foolish.

 

[Purpledog]

Nice post of realism EchoP. I have a solution, it's called a RFO.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Hmmm..my two cents.

I cannot stand red-eyes. I cannot stand having to ride in the back of an airplane. Fortunately, we don't have too much of that going on at my company these days ( I'm just glad we're still flying). If I understand this correctly
(And I am sure someone will correct me)

1. JBlue pilots will benefit by not having to fly back in the middle of the night. West Coast turns. Sounds good on the surface.

2. The company will benefit due to operational flexibility. Good for JBlue

The question is, will the rest of the industry follow suit and attempt to get the same exemption? Like Forrest Gump, I'm not a smart man when it comes to figuring out just how much of an advantage this gives JBlue ( in dollar figures). But I do understand the managements of other airlines will go with the "monkey-see-monkey-do" approach.

I need some time to sort this out. Time to head to throne room for some serious thought...where's my newspaper?

 

[Purpledog]

Tell me what happens after oil gets stuck at $80+ a barrel and your company is hemmorraging money quarter after quarter. Do you think your management will be so "nice" then and not twist your expemption into trying to get back to the black? You all might have a good relationship now, but this could, and probably will change when money becomes a problem. Good luck, I hope it never happens.