A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[Realistic]

INFO ALERT! It has been said that jetBlue pilots support this. I don't remember a vote here but I can assure you that not ALL jetBlue pilots support this. Senior (East Coast) pilots are jumping up and down about it. It will complement the 90 hour lines with time-and-a-half very nicely.
It has also been said that these trips will go senior. Yes they will - and the ones that fall out during irop/sick calls will go very junior - all the way to the reserve who's trying to make a two leg commute to Kennedy work with 12 days off.
The response from our management is that "we don't differentiate between a pilot who elects to commute and the pilot on Long Island who's spending the day with his family. Each pilot has the responsibility to arrive rested for any trip that may become available." Where have I heard this before?
In addition - our "Alertness Management Program" will provide some solid science to prove that reserves should have no problem with double duty as long as they use the "strategies" that come out of this program.
No - let's make sure we vote on this when we know what's really going to happen.

 

[Realistic]

As far as additional "safety" enhancements to our current schedules...

I challenge anybody (when all is said and done) to find a specific change in our schedules that would hurt jetBlue economically. Then I challenge you (when all is said and done) to find the pilots who's lives have been changed for the better and the pilots who's lives have been changed for the worse.
I think you will find the same group of have's and have-not's that we have today.
Don't let anyone convince you that this is only about day turns for senior guys. We are opening the WHOLE can of worms on this one and we might see some interesting "improvements" to things like reserve rules, redeyes, etc.

 

[PastFastMover]

Jetblue320,
Getting greedy so that 20 of your pilots can get lines that give them more days off, while other airlines might exploit this new rule change or exemption is wrong.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Great post and what I think this is all about. Me me me. What, it may effect others in a major way.... well.... it is good for me. LCCs like to cherry pick the routes, why would anyone think that the pilots would not want to cherry pick a limited small scale turn around for themselves. What.... you now have to fly 8 legs... well we (me) don't have to do that. That is not what we had in mind at all. We (me) just want a good deal for a couple of us, we really didn't mean to change the world for others.

 

[Spooky 1]

Pefrect example of pork

Blue Dude,

On ATL--NRT flights (14 hrs enroute) we do have two Captains and two FOs---and those flights are certainly long enough and full of fatigue. (I haven't flown them myself, but have been told that it is tough to get alert again descending into NRT--especially in typhoon season....) But, if you guys started flying those route, I bet you would change some rules there, too. Give me a break----8 hrs of Southwest flying (15 min breaks between flights) or 8 hrs of Delta flying (2 hrs between flights --so it really equals 14 hrs of duty time)--both suck. Throw in bad wx somewhere in the country, and those Long haul LGB--JFK, or LGB--FLL, or LGB--IAD flights will become tougher, and unless you are a superman, like most of you claim, concentrating fully on descent in your last leg will be tough. Sure, things like Continuous duty overnights are also full of fatigue, but there are limits on those in most contracts too. The most important thing here is that you would be changing a rule that was made to protect the majority of non-superman pilots (probably like me)--who want to be safe and alert. That really can never be gaurunteed----but the rule was made for a reason. Changing it for your benefit will allow others to exploit it too. Failing to see that means you are just full of yourself--not caring about others. But hey, you have great morale at Jetblue----gung ho!!!!

Dizel8,

I am not at the top of our payscale, but I would like to have the chance to make more. We will resolve the jumpseat deal eventually. I wish everyone could make more money----and the bar does rest on us right now--and you know that. Maybe we should all fall down to your level and all move into one huge apartment building in Yonkers. I hope the pizza is good in that area.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The practice of operating this ATL/NRT flight with two Captains is a perfect example of what is still wrong with Delta's cost structure. This does nothing to enhance the saftey of this particular flight. What it does is significantly increase the costs reletive to the bottom line. Three F/O's all type rated in the equipment provde for all the safety that this operation requires. Adding a second Captain does little if anything to enhance the safety. I am amazed that this practice survived the recent contract overhaul at Delta. Shame on them for alowing this to continue.

 

[8vATE]

INFO ALERT! It has been said that jetBlue pilots support this. I don't remember a vote here but I can assure you that not ALL jetBlue pilots support this. Senior (East Coast) pilots are jumping up and down about it. It will complement the 90 hour lines with time-and-a-half very nicely.
It has also been said that these trips will go senior.

Nice move Realistic..

Cut and Pasting the SAME POSTS ...
TWO NO LESS

IN TWO DIFFERENT THREADS.

and still harping on haves and have nots...

senior vs. junior.
commuter vs. non commuter
military vs. commercial

mgt. vs. labor
reserve vs. lineholder

us vs. them

and you didn't understand what when you got hired..

jetblue has incentive based pay..
you make MORE when you fly MORE...

what don't you understand..

oh..

you want to make MORE for flying less....

great idea!!

 

[Realistic]

We would all LOVE to fly more. Can you help us out?

 

[Echopapa]

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

Ok two questions...

1. Is it always daylight at 9 PM EST? I don't think so....

2. If you block out at 8 in the morning, you have to show at 7, you have to leave your house at 6, and your getting up at ....say 5:30. You land at 9PM EST (in the dark of course), takes 20 mins to get to your car, and an hour drive home. So your back home at 1020. BEST CASE.

So you do two of these "day flights" in a row and you get rest from 1020 - 5:30? Thats assuming of course that you get home, close the door, and immediately fall asleep. No dinner, no time to talk to the kids, no time to read the paper...all for only 7 hours of genuine rest.

Now how about the real world....weather on the east coast...add 3 hour delay, maintenance problem....45 mins, fog in L.A.....2 hours....

This is foolish.

 

[Purpledog]

Nice post of realism EchoP. I have a solution, it's called a RFO.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Hmmm..my two cents.

I cannot stand red-eyes. I cannot stand having to ride in the back of an airplane. Fortunately, we don't have too much of that going on at my company these days ( I'm just glad we're still flying). If I understand this correctly
(And I am sure someone will correct me)

1. JBlue pilots will benefit by not having to fly back in the middle of the night. West Coast turns. Sounds good on the surface.

2. The company will benefit due to operational flexibility. Good for JBlue

The question is, will the rest of the industry follow suit and attempt to get the same exemption? Like Forrest Gump, I'm not a smart man when it comes to figuring out just how much of an advantage this gives JBlue ( in dollar figures). But I do understand the managements of other airlines will go with the "monkey-see-monkey-do" approach.

I need some time to sort this out. Time to head to throne room for some serious thought...where's my newspaper?

 

[Purpledog]

Tell me what happens after oil gets stuck at $80+ a barrel and your company is hemmorraging money quarter after quarter. Do you think your management will be so "nice" then and not twist your expemption into trying to get back to the black? You all might have a good relationship now, but this could, and probably will change when money becomes a problem. Good luck, I hope it never happens.

 

[jetblue320]

Tell me what happens after oil gets stuck at $80+ a barrel and your company is hemmorraging money quarter after quarter. Do you think your management will be so "nice" then and not twist your expemption into trying to get back to the black? You all might have a good relationship now, but this could, and probably will change when money becomes a problem. Good luck, I hope it never happens.

I'll tell you exactly what they will do. (although I am sure you will not believe it, and I don't care). They will come to the pilot group in a calm, concerned way and ASK for help. You see, we have a level headed relationship with our management group and I certainly don't expect you to understand. There have been many (repeat many) challenges and downturns in this business that have effected JB in a negative way over the past 5+ years and we (all of the JB team) have fielded them quite well in my opinion.

Example in the form of a question: How many airlines had cutbacks and furloughs due to 9/11? I'll tell you what I think is correct. I can think of maybe three that did not, of which JB was one of. In fact, we only cut back our flight schedule for about 2-3 weeks and did not furlough or cutback ONE PERSON. In fact, although they withheld the "promised" 32% pay increase, they paid it retroactively a few months later (just in time for a fat Christmas check, which was awesome).

Does that answer your question?

C yaaaaa

 

[Echopapa]

Whether or not the pilots at JB support this decision really doesn't much matter. They are 5 year "contract" employees, and should the company choose to inpose a new work rule, safe or otherwise, they have no choice but to accept it or find employment at another airline.

JB pilots have no legally protected collective voice that is independant of their companies management. Good luck to the "individual" pilots that stand up against dangerous work rule changes.

 

[8vATE]

Whether or not the pilots at JB support this decision really doesn't much matter. They are 5 year "contract" employees, and should the company choose to inpose a new work rule, safe or otherwise, they have no choice but to accept it or find employment at another airline.

JB pilots have no legally protected collective voice that is independant of their companies management. Good luck to the "individual" pilots that stand up against dangerous work rule changes.

You oversimplify the situation here and make it sound like 1930...

We have no collective bargaining agreement here..
But we have a legally binding employment agreement that autorenews at 5 years.

There have been no purging of the masses..
Actually... we have a few knuckleheads over here that would have probably been fired by now at other places but they are still tooling around in their A320s..

BELIEVE me...
There are WAY too many guys over here with ALPA and other organizing backgrounds...

The fastest way to an inhouse union would be pilot pushing..
I think we could have ballots out and back in record time....

 

[Purpledog]

I'll tell you exactly what they will do. (although I am sure you will not believe it, and I don't care). They will come to the pilot group in a calm, concerned way and ASK for help.

Thank you for making my point. They will come to you and ask you to fly 5 legs up to your exempted 9 hour block you so foolishly lobbied for. Take off the blue goggles and look at it objectively. Oil is only going up and something is going to have to give for you pax guys to make ends meat. Be careful of what you ask for, you might just get it.