A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[nhbizz]

You FOOLS, FOOLS, FOOLS!

How long will it take managment to abuse this one. And DON'T tell me they won't. If you actually take off your blue colored glasses for a minute and think back to other companies you flew for you'll remember that management always tries to push it just a little further. You might as well kiss goodbye any more career progression. The 1 year captains are gone. Every hour over 8 you fly is one less hour a new hire will be needed to fly. Management tells you it will be good for you, well it will be better for them. Just wait till those shiny new 190's are doing 9 hour turns in and out of JFK all day. Don't cry to those of us who realize that 8 hours of flying, regardless of how many legs, is tiring. I will be proud to say on my PA's that I am away from home 1 more day a month, but at least my selfishness is not jeopardizing my passengers safety.

The regionals are not racing this industry to the bottom, you guys are. They at least try to better their working conditions with every contract they fight for.

 

[active_herk]

Be careful what you wish for

As an international pilot, I have done some of the multiple leg high block hour trips which by the FARs are completely legal, and with a relief pilot to boot. I can say in all honesty that I absolutely abhor flying anything more than one leg during a single duty period when it is a long duty period. To think that you won't be fatigued when you are at the end of your second leg at the end of a 12 block hour day is ridiculous. As an example, we fly a leg from Anchorage to Narita (approx 6+30 to 7+30, with around a 10:30am T/O), layover for a little over an hour, and then continue on to Seoul (another 2+30). Everyone I've flown with remarks at how much they hate this pairing, even with the relief pilot. You guys at Jet Blue may think you are getting a great deal out of this, but I imagine after a couple of months of flying it, you may see these lines start to go pretty junior. Of course I may be wrong.

 

[pilot141]

JBLU guys your focus here is too narrow. You look at ONE route that you guys have, and the solution seems to be "Give us an exemption! I'd get more days off! I'd rather fly this! If you don't like it, don't bid it!".

Well, anyone here can cherry-pick some ugly sequence and come up with a better way to fly it that suits their needs. But guess what, scheduling doesn't listen to us line pukes who bitch. If it's legal, it gets built. If you give the company this, they will stretch it until you can't even recognize it.

As for "Don't bid it if you don't like it", the never-being junior miracle will also end sometime at JBLU. Just because you want to fly that 11-hour turn that signs in at 6 AM doesn't mean that the poor schmuck sitting reserve wants to fly it. Maybe he likes to stay up late and wake up at 10 AM, but he's too junior to hold a line - sorry, bub, but I WANT my extra day off - suck it up and fly. Are we talking QOL or safety now?

Rather than fix a VERY narrow problem with something that could protect your careers (ie getting a relief pilot and doing the turn), you seek to change a rule that can potentially affect everyone. Just look around - Hawaii turns out of LAX, San Juan out of JFK - this problem is NOT new. Asking to abuse yourselves in the process IS.

What's next? FLL-SEA turns only during Daylight Savings time?

Rather than focusing on changing a very important and hard-won rule to alleviate your problem, maybe you should fix the problem itself: onerous scheduling by your company.

 

[G4G5]

Complacency Kills!

If you don't think so take the time to do an on line search. The NTSB list countless accidents and incidents.

Don't trust me do a Google search, just like I did. You will find that when the NTSB recently lists caueses of acidents. Number 4 on the list was:

"complacency or over-reliance on maintenance, dispatch, other crew members, or equipment to perform functions flawlessly "

Sure B6 operates highly automated, latest technology aircraft. Which do reduce the work load but they also take the pilot out of the loop. Once again, I am not concerned about the folks on this board. It's the one pilot that we all have flown with ..............that concerns me. Again, not necessarly at B6, he could be flying at one of the countless other airlines that will adopt this policy.


Granted getting handed off from Cleveland center to Ny center is a low stress function.

But,

How do you explain NAV track errors? They are nothing more then the wrong entry into an FMS.Sounds stupid, they still happen with 3 pilots in the cockpit. In route or on the ground under a no stress condition.

What about AA and Cali. The wrong FMS entry on the approach.

Unless you have flown in Europe recently you have not flown in domestic RVSM airspace. It's coming folks. 1000 foot separation. It cuts your reaction time in half. Folks will now be getting FL380 and FL400 and yes some may even enter the wrong altitude.

To think, just because I fly an A320 with 2 FMS's. I am better off then most is absurd. What's worse is it's the type of complancency I was talking about.

What does that make my G4 at FL450 with 3 FMS's? Does that allow me to just fall a sleep.

Someone mentioned commuting. How can commuting from another time zone make this any safer? It can't, especially if the JFK-LGB-Jfk flight is based upon normal times from a different time zone. What happens if they decided to depart at 11 am to make it eaiser and arrive at 11pm (regular hours)? Then talk to me about the commuter who flies in on the red eye from LA just so he can fly the JFK-LGB turn. That get's him an extra day at home.

Or do you gurantee that no commuter pilot will ever try that?

You can't argue Q of L vs safety!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's my point, take care

 

[jetblue320]

Jetblue people,

Why can't you people respond professionally on this board without personal insults? Yeah, General Lee and others can be brash and sarcastic, but they don't get that personal. How about responding with LOGIC and professionalism next time.


My $ 0.02

I don't know, you tell me? Read on further down to see how professionally your beloved General writes....

"bonehead, brown nosing boobs"

yea, spoken like a real pro! Well, he does belong to the group known industry wide as "The Professionals" right?

 

[jetblue320]

JBLU guys your focus here is too narrow. You look at ONE route that you guys have, and the solution seems to be "Give us an exemption! I'd get more days off! I'd rather fly this! If you don't like it, don't bid it!".

Well, anyone here can cherry-pick some ugly sequence and come up with a better way to fly it that suits their needs. But guess what, scheduling doesn't listen to us line pukes who bitch. If it's legal, it gets built. If you give the company this, they will stretch it until you can't even recognize it.

That may be true at your airline, but at B6, we (the pilots & F/A's) are self tasked to contruct our pairings aided by expensive software. We use a preferential bidding system similar to many others.

As for "Don't bid it if you don't like it", the never-being junior miracle will also end sometime at JBLU. Just because you want to fly that 11-hour turn that signs in at 6 AM doesn't mean that the poor schmuck sitting reserve wants to fly it. Maybe he likes to stay up late and wake up at 10 AM, but he's too junior to hold a line - sorry, bub, but I WANT my extra day off - suck it up and fly. Are we talking QOL or safety now?

We don't schedule our reserve folks to fly at all. In fact, you could call it a true reserve system because the only time a reserve pilot goes out is when someone either calls in sick, requests the day off by an established policy, or if there is some sort of legality issue due to wx, mx, etc. While your "one man's trash is another man's treasure" statement is valid, I fail to see how it has anything to do with either QOL or safety. But, thats my opinion.

Rather than fix a VERY narrow problem with something that could protect your careers (ie getting a relief pilot and doing the turn), you seek to change a rule that can potentially affect everyone. Just look around - Hawaii turns out of LAX, San Juan out of JFK - this problem is NOT new. Asking to abuse yourselves in the process IS.

What's next? FLL-SEA turns only during Daylight Savings time?

Rather than focusing on changing a very important and hard-won rule to alleviate your problem, maybe you should fix the problem itself: onerous scheduling by your company.

Not that it matters, but we already do JFK-SJU turns, and that is perfectly legal, but here's another point: how about the safety issue of that flight if conducted from 9:00 pm through the night arriving back at JFK at 6:00 am the following morning? Legal right? Have you done one of these? I have and it's far from what I consider to be ideal from a safety perspective. But, that's ok right. Man, you are out there over the sea with only a radio check in every 30 minutes or so, see what I mean? And under flag rules, you can exceed 30 hours in 7 days (not to exceed 32) if the final flight in the series was conducted under flag rules. Maybe the other carriers that fly JFK-SJU (or similar flights under flag rules)don't apply this type of scheduling, I don't know. But, ask yourself this, what's the difference between that and doing it over land, in daylight hours, and under radar surveillance?

Raises some questions for sure.

As far as FLL-SEA during DST, let's not get silly.

Anyway, keep it safe Pilot141 and thank you for the professional post

 

[Boeingman]

Not that it matters, but we already do JFK-SJU turns, and that is perfectly legal, but here's another point: how about the safety issue of that flight if conducted from 9:00 pm through the night arriving back at JFK at 6:00 am the following morning? Legal right? Have you done one of these? I have and it's far from what I consider to be ideal from a safety perspective. But, that's ok right. Man, you are out there over the sea with only a radio check in every 30 minutes or so, see what I mean? And under flag rules, you can exceed 30 hours in 7 days (not to exceed 32) if the final flight in the series was conducted under flag rules. Maybe the other carriers that fly JFK-SJU (or similar flights under flag rules)don't apply this type of scheduling, I don't know. But, ask yourself this, what's the difference between that and doing it over land, in daylight hours, and under radar surveillance?

Raises some questions for sure.

What you guys keep missing (by using examples above) is the fact that it is not a problem with the already flimsy regs, which already allow abuses such as above. The problem is within your company that routinly schedules you to the FAR maximum. Negotiated contracts protect the pilot groups with restrictions over and above the FAR to prevent the above example....which is valid.

And your right, there is no difference but I can assure you that even with an IRO (and a FC seat) doing Int'l daytime flights exceeding 8+ hours can be extremely tiring.

As far as FLL-SEA during DST, let's not get silly.

It is a valid point. You guys open pandoras box and it is possible. Not now but you can bet your blue booties that it could be FORCED upon you (or something you haven't even yet thought of).

I'm telling you all don't be so enamored with your management and hide behind a facade of QOL. Don't take this as an attack but when the pendulum swings the other way over there, and I believe it eventually will, you may find yourselves in an advisarial relationship with the present or future management team. It is ludicrus to set a precedent that can and will be exploited.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,

Again, there is no domestic 8 hr limit in 24 rule. The 8 hr limit is between rest periods, not in a 24 hr period. You can't quote chapter and verse to support your claim, but I can: 14CFR 121.471. It says:
quote:

§ 121.471 Flight Time Limitations and Rest Requirements:
All Flight Crewmembers
(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember’s total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed –
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.



Which is what I said in my post, if you'd bothered to read it. Honestly, for such a high time airline pilot, I expected a little better comprehension of the rules you supposedly follow every day. Be very sure you know what you're saying before you jump down my throat next time.

Poor baby. Did you consider that I was “jumping down your throat” because I said “I beg to differ”? Are we a bit hypersensitive here? Yes, I think so.

If you bother to read the following paragraph, the 8/ 24 hour is a limitation because it is a lookback provision. So in essence it becomes limitation but being the simpleton that you are, I can see how it would confuse you by just quoting the above verbatim. There is a difference in scheduled and actual limits. Obviously you have a partial grasp on this concept evidenced by your rambling to another poster about this.

Like I said before, and you convienently ignored, if there was no 8/24 you blue boys could fly all the transcons your little hearts desired and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.
(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.
(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.
[Doc. No. 23634, 50 FR 29319, July 18, 1985, as amended by Amdt. 121-253

Wasn't discussing competitive advantage. I was discussing QOL and safety. I understand that any sort of exemption that provides a significant advantage may have to be matched by other airlines, but I think such an advantage here would be pretty marginal. There aren't all that many flights that would apply to this kind of scheduling with all the restrictions that would be placed on it. For instance, you couldn't stack a lot of shorthauls in there (too many legs) and redeyes wouldn't count (too late). It would help JetBlue a proportionally greater amount than most airlines since so much of our lift is transcon, and our average stage length is long. SWA or AAI for instance would benefit very little since they have a much greater of percentage of shorthauls. It probably wouldn't even be worth pursuing for them.

For other airlines, well, that's what your contracts are for. I don't remember you guys caring much about improving our QOL, so I guess we'll take care of that ourselves. If that affects your next negotiations, then that's frankly your problem. For all the talk about us doing something for the "profession" (a nebulous, poorly defined entity), you never seem to say when the profession will return the favor. In reality, it's every pilot group for itself. There has not been true unity among pilots groups in my lifetime, and it may never have existed. Don't preach to me about holding the line when you sell your own union brothers down the river with many contracts and side letters you sign.

I acknowledge a debt to contracts past for setting an acceptable range of pay rates and work rules. But don't expect slavish devotion to the status quo in every issue simply because it may affect other pilot groups. They're not my problem. This pilot group and improving QOL here is my problem. And if you people were at all honest with yourselves, you'd see that when it matters you already act in the same way.

I’ll let G man pick this one apart, but in its entirety it is simply breathtaking. There is another group of individuals with this type of thinking within the industry. You sound no different that a SCAB with your opportunistic me me me me me me me thought process Really and truly disgusting.

 

[justApilot]

Hey I've got an idea. Let's just get rid of duty/flight time limits all together. Rules....we don't need no stinkin' rules.


DUMB

 

[nimtz]

Over the years AA, CAL, DAL, EAL, PAL, People Express, TWA, and UAL guys been doing/done nonstop NYC to the West Coast. It goes all the way back to the 707 and DC-8 being the first jets used. In all those years with all those pilot groups, not a single one has ever approached management with the idea that it would be more beneficial to all parities to do transcon turns! The answer is no, because they are/were all wise enough to realize how fatiging and unsafe this practice would be. Honestly, I would think the feds would be looking away from any 'exemptions' to duty rules after the American 80 got sawed in half at Little Rock.

It probably helps that the pilots of the before mentioned airlines are/were actually paid well enough that they didn't need transcon turns to afford a house in the NY area. Something more to think about. Getting to JFK is one of the worst drives from anywhere in the NY area, that's why CAL dominates NY area traffic at EWR. So saying your not a commuter (oh yeah nothing like that crashpad sleep), how early is our JB captain going to have to get up to drive to work to make his check in time and then after that fly 8.4 hours of nearly continuous duty. Don't forget the drive home as well. Sure sounds pretty d*mn fatiging to me.

I hope this is just some random rumor or something 10% of the JB pilot group thinks is a good idea, because if its a majority move then the majority of JB pilots are an embarrassment to this profession. Those who have mentioned it are dead on right, this is a pandora's box you are opening by even suggesting a willingness to do transcon turns.