A Picture Of Unity

[JoeMerchant]

Honest question here..

Do you think the CHQ, Colgan, and XJT pilots should be consulted during the CAL negotiations? What exactly would their purpose be? If they demanded 90 seat aircraft should the pilot group simply give up the language that protects mainline jobs. Honestly, is that what your advocating?

.....depends on whether the "unity" is real or just a gimick....The mainline pilots are free to do whatever they want in their interest....but if they don't include me then we really don't have "unity" in ALPA....

Either we are together or we are separate....ALPA needs to make up their mind....I can live with either decision....I just want to know which way to proceed....

 

[ATRCA]

.....depends on whether the "unity" is real or just a gimick....The mainline pilots are free to do whatever they want in their interest....but if they don't include me then we really don't have "unity" in ALPA....

Either we are together or we are separate....ALPA needs to make up their mind....I can live with either decision....I just want to know which way to proceed....

So if the XJT pilots demand 90 seat a/c for the sake of unity in ALPA, CAL pilots should give them that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So if the XJT pilots demand 90 seat a/c for the sake of unity in ALPA, CAL pilots should give them that?

....in your example there isn't "unity"....I'm not a CAL pilot nor an XJT pilot....but if there is a scope disagreement and there isn't agreement.....then there isn't unity - plain and simple.......Don't preach "unity" if it doesn't exist.....Either create unity or admit that we aren't unified.....Very simple concept.....

 

[ATRCA]

....in your example there isn't "unity"....I'm not a CAL pilot nor an XJT pilot....but if there is a scope disagreement and there isn't agreement.....then there isn't unity - plain and simple.......Don't preach "unity" if it doesn't exist.....Either create unity or admit that we aren't unified.....Very simple concept.....

I'm not preaching anything. I'm asking a very simple question and instead of answering it you respond with anti-ALPA soundbites.

Should the pilots of CAL grant scope relief to CAL mgt because the XJT pilots think it is in their best interest to gain such relief. XJT also has scope in their contract to prevent XJT mgt from outsourcing XJT flying. Should XJT decide to outsource the branded operation should the XJT NC roll in the interest of the pilots from "X,Y,Z" who stand to benefit from new growth?

Not trying to start a pissing contest. I'm just trying to see what your position on this is.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not preaching anything. I'm asking a very simple question and instead of answering it you respond with anti-ALPA soundbites.

Should the pilots of CAL grant scope relief to CAL mgt because the XJT pilots think it is in their best interest to gain such relief. XJT also has scope in their contract to prevent XJT mgt from outsourcing XJT flying. Should XJT decide to outsource the branded operation should the XJT NC roll in the interest of the pilots from "X,Y,Z" who stand to benefit from new growth?

Not trying to start a pissing contest. I'm just trying to see what your position on this is.

The CAL pilots can do whatever they want to do....as can the Delta pilots....however if it doesn't include other "family members" ie XJT or ASA/CMR in the case of Delta....then we don't really have "unity"......

To answer your question....The CAL pilots are free to do whatever they want....However if we were a true union and there was true "unity"....then they would proceed with the interests of the XJT pilots also....

This isn't a difficult concept.....either act as a true union with true "unity".....or quit with the BS rhetoric.....

 

[ATRCA]

The CAL pilots can do whatever they want to do....as can the Delta pilots....however if it doesn't include other "family members" ie XJT or ASA/CMR in the case of Delta....then we don't really have "unity"......

To answer your question....The CAL pilots are free to do whatever they want....However if we were a true union and there was true "unity"....then they would proceed with the interests of the XJT pilots also....

This isn't a difficult concept.....either act as a true union with true "unity".....or quit with the BS rhetoric.....

Going in circles here of course. You know the impossibility in what you suggest. Where does the "interests" end. With XJT?........Then Colgan wants their share of the XJT pie. So the XJT pilots have to give up their scope.....and so on and so on.

The fact of the matter is that XJT is a contractor. Just like the Coke, Catering, and the fuel guys. XJT has no ownership of anything CAL. XJT today, someone else tomorrow. The outsourcing of jobs is something ALL LABOR unions try to prevent. XJT has a temporary contract to fly the CAL brand. That's it. It suxs, I know. I was there. In the end, if your company does not sell its own tickets........you don't get to dictate the terms. For this reason, Regional pilots will be getting the screw job for a very long time.

ALPA could never keep up with all those interests. It would always have to take from one to give to another for "unity" or "interests." Contract flying is a no win situation. Thats the deal. I wish the best for the XJT pilot group and all the CMR's and ASA's of the world but this business is not fair and until your airline is the one selling the tickets..........you're screwed!

The XJT pilots are far from happy about the new Colgan Q-400 flying causing reductions at XJT. So whats your answer to that situation. Should the XJT pilots be able to dictate terms to the Colgan boys and girls? Demand that flying be returned to XJT? Right now its high time at Colgan. New A/C, growth, yipee! XJT is talking COLA's and furloughs.

ALPA cannot possibly protect the "interests" of all these parties. Its a losing proposition. Perhaps XJT should decertify ALPA and start the "Regional Pilots Association" or something. In the end though that would change nothing except that 1.9% would leave them broke.

I suspect that few XJT pilots would say they have gotten a bad deal w/ regard to ALPA.

 

[chuychanga]

Most of us XJT pilots realize that scope is a good thing in the long term of our careers. Most of us realize that flying a 50 seat jet is something we are stuck with even though it ultimately hurt our careers down the road. I can't remember the last time I flew with someone who actually thought it was a good idea for us to fly bigger aircraft for a major airline.

Don't lump us into your arguments, Joe.

 

[ATRCA]

Most of us XJT pilots realize that scope is a good thing in the long term of our careers. Most of us realize that flying a 50 seat jet is something we are stuck with even though it ultimately hurt our careers down the road. I can't remember the last time I flew with someone who actually thought it was a good idea for us to fly bigger aircraft for a major airline.

Don't lump us into your arguments, Joe.

I was at XJT for 8 yrs and felt the same way. I'm at CAL now and I understand the frustration but ultimately I would have never been able to make the move if CAL did not have scope protection against the larger 70/90's. I hope every single XJT pilot gets what they want out of this career. In the end, if your goal is to leave XJT, you are right. Scope helps. Its a crappy situation for all involved.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Going in circles here of course. You know the impossibility in what you suggest. Where does the "interests" end. With XJT?........Then Colgan wants their share of the XJT pie. So the XJT pilots have to give up their scope.....and so on and so on.

The fact of the matter is that XJT is a contractor. Just like the Coke, Catering, and the fuel guys. XJT has no ownership of anything CAL. XJT today, someone else tomorrow. The outsourcing of jobs is something ALL LABOR unions try to prevent. XJT has a temporary contract to fly the CAL brand. That's it. It suxs, I know. I was there. In the end, if your company does not sell its own tickets........you don't get to dictate the terms. For this reason, Regional pilots will be getting the screw job for a very long time.

ALPA could never keep up with all those interests. It would always have to take from one to give to another for "unity" or "interests." Contract flying is a no win situation. Thats the deal. I wish the best for the XJT pilot group and all the CMR's and ASA's of the world but this business is not fair and until your airline is the one selling the tickets..........you're screwed!

The XJT pilots are far from happy about the new Colgan Q-400 flying causing reductions at XJT. So whats your answer to that situation. Should the XJT pilots be able to dictate terms to the Colgan boys and girls? Demand that flying be returned to XJT? Right now its high time at Colgan. New A/C, growth, yipee! XJT is talking COLA's and furloughs.

ALPA cannot possibly protect the "interests" of all these parties. Its a losing proposition. Perhaps XJT should decertify ALPA and start the "Regional Pilots Association" or something. In the end though that would change nothing except that 1.9% would leave them broke.

I suspect that few XJT pilots would say they have gotten a bad deal w/ regard to ALPA.

....well now the truth finally comes out....I am one of those regional "lifers".....Didn't plan on it....but timing wasn't right and the paradigm changed.....like any good pilot...when the destination weather goes down you procede to your alternate......

......many of us have diverted to our altenate....We are now regional lifers....We make well over 100K a year with our choice of schedules and 4 weeks of vacation each year that we can turn into 8-12 weeks of vacation.....

.......there is a conflict of interest now between the various "interests"....The mainline should never have outsourced this flying in the first place.....but they did and now we have competing interests....

Your position does not mirror my interest.....therefor I do not support your position....If your position is that of ALPAs then I do not support ALPA.....

We will just have to agree to disagree.....and I will do everything possible to discredit a union that doesn't protect my interests.....simple enough junior?

 

[ATRCA]

....well now the truth finally comes out....I am one of those regional "lifers".....Didn't plan on it....but timing wasn't right and the paradigm changed.....like any good pilot...when the destination weather goes down you procede to your alternate......

......many of us have diverted to our altenate....We are now regional lifers....We make well over 100K a year with our choice of schedules and 4 weeks of vacation each year that we can turn into 8-12 weeks of vacation.....

.......there is a conflict of interest now between the various "interests"....The mainline should never have outsourced this flying in the first place.....but they did and now we have competing interests....

Your position does not mirror my interest.....therefor I do not support your position....If your position is that of ALPAs then I do not support ALPA.....

We will just have to agree to disagree.....and I will do everything possible to discredit a union that doesn't protect my interests.....simple enough junior?

"Junior"..........? Where did I insult you in any of my posts? Why do you feel that you have to throw an absurd insult at the end to make your point. My logbook is as big as yours I'm sure so there is no need for the insults. As far as your "lifer" tag, I don't hold that against you or look down on you for it. I went back and forth myself. I made VERY good money at XJT and was very happy being in the top 500 of 3000 pilots. In the end I could see the writing on the wall and now its there for everyone to witness.

Good luck. There is nothing good in store for contract carriers. Continuous unstoppable wipsaw, and probably some BK's.

In the end, you can stomp your feet all you like. It will change nothing. The larger carriers will have their interests addressed above those of the contract carriers and thats the way business is done. Decertification will also have very little positive effect. I was "junior" (as you say) enough early in my career to belong to the IACP. Our little independent union had 12 million dollars in the bank. That was all of it. ALPA spends that on lobbyists.

XJT could have never gotten their contract without the support and pocketbook of ALPA. ALPA's leftovers were more than what XJT could have wrestled from the IACP on its best day.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"Junior"..........? Where did I insult you in any of my posts? Why do you feel that you have to throw an absurd insult at the end to make your point. My logbook is as big as yours I'm sure so there is no need for the insults. As far as your "lifer" tag, I don't hold that against you or look down on you for it. I went back and forth myself. I made VERY good money at XJT and was very happy being in the top 500 of 3000 pilots. In the end I could see the writing on the wall and now its there for everyone to witness.

Good luck. There is nothing good in store for contract carriers. Continuous unstoppable wipsaw, and probably some BK's.

.....and some of you mainline folks would love it if my 100K plus job with a good schedule goes away.....ALPA has helped to create the whipsaw....

Good luck yourself.....but don't ask for my support...We are on opposite sides of the fence....a fence that our union refuses to tear down....

Either tear down the fence and build true unity....or deal with the consequences of battles on either side of the fence.....The later won't build unity.....

 

[ATRCA]

.....and some of you mainline folks would love it if my 100K plus job with a good schedule goes away.....ALPA has helped to create the whipsaw....

Good luck yourself.....but don't ask for my support...We are on opposite sides of the fence....a fence that our union refuses to tear down....

Either tear down the fence and build true unity....or deal with the consequences of battles on either side of the fence.....The later won't build unity.....

The consequences you speak of will always be worse for YOU than for me. There is a pecking order like it or not. I got tired of being at the bottom of that order.

I have no eyes on your job. As I said, I wish you the best. 100K is not that much money BTW. I have made and spent that much so I am well acquainted. I suspect the "true unity" you speak of is merely you getting a bigger voice than your status deserves. You work for a contract carrier. Your contract is temporary in nature. ALPA cannot force DAL to keep you for life.

It simply doesn't work that way........but you already knew that, and thats what really has you all bent out of shape.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The consequences you speak of will always be worse for YOU than for me. There is a pecking order like it or not. I got tired of being at the bottom of that order.

I have no eyes on your job. As I said, I wish you the best. 100K is not that much money BTW. I have made and spent that much so I am well acquainted. I suspect the "true unity" you speak of is merely you getting a bigger voice than your status deserves. You work for a contract carrier. Your contract is temporary in nature. ALPA cannot force DAL to keep you for life.

It simply doesn't work that way........but you already knew that, and thats what really has you all bent out of shape.

At least the truth is coming out now....I will make about 112K this year and have my choice of schedules....That is worth defending......Using a spread sheet a mainline pilot gave me, I wouldn't do any better financially at CAL or DAL....The only carriers I would do better at between now and retirement are FedEx and UPS.....

We are a minority....but we have rights in this union also.....If the union doesn't want to acknowledge them then they can suffer the consequences......

It took a while to get you to admit what some of us already realize about this so called union.....The minority can be sacrificed.......

Don't ask me for any support......

 

[ATRCA]

At least the truth is coming out now....I will make about 112K this year and have my choice of schedules....That is worth defending......Using a spread sheet a mainline pilot gave me, I wouldn't do any better financially at CAL or DAL....The only carriers I would do better at between now and retirement are FedEx and UPS.....

We are a minority....but we have rights in this union also.....If the union doesn't want to acknowledge them then they can suffer the consequences......

It took a while to get you to admit what some of us already realize about this so called union.....The minority can be sacrificed.......

Don't ask me for any support......

Tell me about the consequences...? I admitted nothing. You already knew how this works. You're not happy about that. I get it. The thing of it is, you think you can change the way airlines do business. I knew better and moved on. You want to stay and try to change the rules of the game in your favor. You threaten consequences that we all no DON'T EXIST. Your foot stomping will change nothing and in the end I won't need your support for anything.

What change will you affect in this industry? How will you re-write the way this works? How will you strike down ALPA and take what was never yours in the first place.

I have had these discussion with lots of folks. I felt the way you did. I just realized that my back was up against a wall and went were the leverage was mine, not used against me. Quit bragging about your salary. Many have walked away from the same .........why...................because they knew what you have been unwilling to admit to yourself. You have no leverage, you cannot dictate the terms. You cannot take what is not yours. You have no brand. You have a contract and contracts are temporary. I hated it, wanted to change it, and knew it was unfair.

What's fair anyway? Certainly not this business.

 

[BigMeat]

Joe was a part of the RJDC coalition. He is pissed because he married a girl that was in managment and does not want to leave but yet wants to fly mainline jets at ASA. I heard from others Joe that you used to be a pretty cool guy...I wonder what happened....Dreams of a better management job maybe? How about this Joe. If you get what American would get to fly the Fokker 100 at your airline you can have more mainline jets. Plus youll also get my application. Until then people that support the whipsawing in this industry need to step aside and leave it for those who really care for those both at the regional and majors. At least we are "trying" to keep the majors a place for our younger peers to step up to and have fruitful careers.