A loyal Platinum Delta business pass speaks up

[Whirlwind]

Whirlwind,

I do not think that DL is in as much financial trouble as the media and other outlets are leading people to believe.

Perhaps... My view is that they have a problem well beyond pilot pay, they have a broken business model which doesn't work. Either be a SWA, or be better and charge for it.

Will the pilots end up taking pay cuts?

This is about more than pay cuts. Delta pilots could work for free and it wouldn't fix the problem Delta has.

My view is that Delta's real problem is that they are not charging enough per ticket to support their cost structure.

There are a few reasons for this, lack of pricing power, too many seats moving about the skies, customers expecting to fly for next to nothing, etc.

Regardless of the reasons, you cannot sell $129 tickets for 5 hour flights across the country and expect to make any money at it.

I wonder how many pilots actually look at what tickets cost. Go do a few searches on Expedia, I think you'll find that on popular routes, everyone charges about the same price.

For example, in two weeks I'm going to be flying from DFW to DEN, a 2 hour flight each way. I have 5 different airlines to pick from (non-stop):

American / MD-80
Delta / CRJ700 (flown by ASA)
United / 737-800
US Airways / 737-500
Frontier / A319

All but US Airways charge $297 round trip. It doesn't matter in the least which of these airlines I fly on, other than which has the schedule which works the best for me.

If you want "class" and top notch service then you fly Delta, if you want to join a cattle heard, save money, eat peanuts, and make five stops to get to where you want to go to then SWA would be more than happy to take your money.

350, I want to make clear that I'm not bashing Delta here, so I'll use American for the time being...

Flying in coach on a MD-80 on American has no more "class" than flying on a 737 on SouthWest. I've done both enough to never want to do either again.

I do think they can make it happen but I also do agree with you that they must ditch this direct competition with the SWA's of the industry.

Maybe Delta should ditch the coach seats and go all first class. Offer tickets for about twice what SWA charges and offer a truly superior product. Who knows, it might just work...

 

[46Driver]

I have friends who make more than enough money in the business world ($180k per year) to fly any airline they choose, and they LIKE to fly Southwest. And despite me flying for Delta Connection, they tell me in no uncertain terms how much they hate Delta (mainline and DCI). Lot of that is probably due to the $2000 evening gown Delta lost when she flew Delta to Paris..... Now they try to fly Southwest within the continental US and choose a foreign carrier when flying overseas.

As for Independence Air, it is the whole point of all the people driving from Northern Virginia up to Baltimore to fly Southwest that we are hoping for. As long as we are close in price, we will be fine. NEVER underestimate the American desire for convenience.........

 

[350DRIVER]

I think the point you are missing is that the loyal and faithful passengers ARE jumping ship because the quality of the product has deteriorated. Delta is no longer comparable to the Mercedes you reference in your post.

Have you taken a look at the summer loads for Delta? I didn't think so... Why is Delta no longer comparable to the product that it once was and what are you basing your opinions on? I shall patiently await your response. I love it, one guy has a bad experience on DL and now they have deteriorated to this evil product that is no longer any good... Give me a break-

Perhaps... My view is that they have a problem well beyond pilot pay, they have a broken business model which doesn't work. Either be a SWA, or be better and charge for it.

I agree, the problem is bigger than pilot pay, the main reason that the pilots are in no rush to take the cuts. I don't really think the business model is broken, I just think they need to get their flying back and getting back to doing what made them so successful in the first place. I don't think you will ever see the day that DL mirrors the SWA image, highly unlikely..... I don't think they were ever on the same level at Southwest.

Maybe Delta should ditch the coach seats and go all first class. Offer tickets for about twice what SWA charges and offer a truly superior product. Who knows, it might just work...

I think Midwest Airlines is all first class and last I checked the funeral director is on stby. This cannot and will not work at DL, impossible. This has some to do with the cost per ticket but much more to do with getting the mainline flying back to mainline. You cannot replace 37 flying with the RJ and expect miracles to happen, just is not going to work. The first class cabin has been profitable to Delta on most routes but you cannot go all first class....


Should be interesting times ahead but I don't expect DL to be going away. Airways is in a world of trouble in comparison to DL.

As for Independence Air, it is the whole point of all the people driving from Northern Virginia up to Baltimore to fly Southwest that we are hoping for. As long as we are close in price, we will be fine. NEVER underestimate the American desire for convenience.........

I like the postive attitude but if you don't think that you have a huge uphill battle then they are giving ya'll some good kool aid over there... When you lost UAL you had nothing left at your disposal but this "gamble". I wish you the best but it surely ain't going to be as sweet as roses...


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[46Driver]

Its all a "gamble" in the aviation industry. Would I rather be whipsawed against numerous other regionals for a bankrupt legacy carrier or take my chances alone? With the airline industry in such a turbulent state, I think it is better to be small and nimble right now. No doubt, it is going to be tough sledding but better than the alternative. Personally, I would rather swing for the fences.

 

[350DRIVER]

I wish you much luck, hopefully you won't need too much of it though.... I guess the alternative of becoming Mesa couldn't have made ya'll too happy anyways so your group is shooting for stars.

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[CatYaaak]

350 writes: "If you want "class" and top notch service then you fly Delta".....



This is too funny! Sorry, but Delta is a "Mercedes"? You need to get out more, my friend.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I recently got married and we went to London and Zurich for the honeymoon. We went standby on Delta and were able to get in Business Elite. I must tell you it was top notch all the way. The cabin crew couldn't be nicer and more attentive and no we didn't mention the honeymoon part either. ALL of the passengers were commenting on the service. Coming back a week later from ZRH it was a totally different crew and it was top notch again. In both cases they obviously knew were were non revs but it made NO difference. Excellent trips both ways.
I know, though, as most do, that there are many exceptions to that unfortunately. All I can do for my part is the best I can. I hop out and thank the passengers each time they get off the ATR either at the out-station or in ATL. About 80 percent say either thanks or goodbye or both. Can't make everyone happy but I try my hardest to. Plenty of folks have said they were surprised that the ATR was actually more comfortable than the RJ!

Just trying to enjoy the job!

 

[Whirlwind]

Have you taken a look at the summer loads for Delta?

Yes, they are quite high, which is why the recall triggers kicked in.

The problem is those loads were acheved by selling tickets below cost, which is a lousy long term business model.

Why is Delta no longer comparable to the product that it once was and what are you basing your opinions on?

Because the service in coach on domestic flights isn't any better than the LLCs. That's my opinion, you sound like you disagree with it, which is fine. I just don't feel there is a difference when flying domestic coach.

I just think they need to get their flying back and getting back to doing what made them so successful in the first place.

I'm curious to know what you think that is. It can't just be putting mainline airplanes and pilots back on the domestic routes, those planes cost more, not less, to fly.

The thing is, if you charge SWA prices you have to offer SWA service. If Delta wants to be better than SWA, they have to charge more. I'm curious to know if you have an idea of how they can do that, because I haven't thought of one yet.

 

[AA717driver]

Ben--From my perspective, just about all your problems have been generated by the MBA's in the accounting department of (insert legacy carrier name here).

I am ex-TWA/furloughed AA. I've seen good management(the last several years of TWA's life) and bad management(TWA until it was too late and AA--their corporate culture is only marginally better than the Soviet Union under Stalin).

One thing I find either ironic or sickening is that Don Carty lamented the fact that AA couldn't match the performance of Dallas neighbor, Southwest. Duh! SWA prides itself on how it treats its employees and the rest of the business takes care of itself. AA micromanages every aspect of the company and maintains the policy of "the floggings will continue until morale improves".

Do senior managers make statements like Carty did and really believe them or are they trying to make the employees think they believe them? Either way, now there are two templates on how to successfully run an airline--SWA and JetBlue.

As long as the bean counters run the business, customer service will suffer.TC

P.S.--Now that I am a corporate pilot I will be airlining around a fair amount so I get to "enjoy" the same experience you business travellers have been experiencing...

 

[Majik]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company.
I can't stand Delta anymore, but have no choice but to continue flying them in most cases. I tried stopping for 6 months last year, but it cut into my family time too much. The way they treat there customers is terrible. More on that later.

Years ago, I had no problem spending 2100 for a full fare ticket at the last minute.

Has your company ever thought about NetJets? Avoid the congestion at the main terminal. Save the 2 hrs waiting to get x-rayed and probed. Tired of standing in line like a sheep? Save the 30-40 minutes waiting for your luggage to appear on the other end (if it does) and then try to find your ground transportation. Want to feel like you are the most important person on the plane again? Want to fly from any small airport in the ATL area direct to any small airport in the US or abroad? Ever want to leave your house, travel to 3 cities for 3 different business meetings in the same day? Many businesses have happily made the switch and have discovered that service is still alive, although at a price. www.netjets.com

 

[MedFlyer]

Whirlwind,

I think Delta has many many loyal and faithful passengers that would never jump ship regardless of how much they can save by heading over to the "greyhound" of the sky. If you want "class" and top notch service then you fly Delta, if you want to join a cattle heard, save money, eat peanuts, and make five stops to get to where you want to go to then SWA would be more than happy to take your money. This is like comparing the Mercedes to a Cavalier, which one would you rather have if money is no object? I know I would much prefer the better product and not the cheaper no frills car. I don't think that you are going to see DL going anywhere anytime soon, too many people enjoy them, the product, and the good service that they provide.

I disagree in the sense that these are two completely different animals and in no way will DL swoop to the level of SWA, they have too much pride and class as a company to do so. I think Delta will refine it's product, get their flying back, improve on different areas, cut costs, etc, and once again be back to doing what made them so successful in the first place. They have a superior product but I truly believe that when they started to match fares and routes, etc, that is what got them into trouble, agreed. They need to stick to doing what they did so well... The boss is no moron and I am sure he has a plan that is going to work... I would in no way count DL out just quite yet. I do think they can make it happen but I also do agree with you that they must ditch this direct competition with the SWA's of the industry.

There's nothing classy about flying Delta anymore whether it's an RJ or mainline. The service is barebones at best. People don't choose DL because it's classy...they choose DL either because it's convenient or it's cheap. Class left DL about ten years ago.


Here's one article I found about DL's "superior" product...somehow I couldn't find one article about DL's superior service:

http://www.bcentral.com/articles/elliott/155.asp

"According to those of you who contacted me, it's more a combination of poor service and cramped flying conditions that puts Delta over the top. (Coincidentally, Delta recently admitted that its service had slipped and promised to do better; so hopefully this carrier will work its way off this list.)"

 

[dgs]

Thanks from JetBlue

Ben -- On behalf of all of us at JetBlue, I want to thank you for flying us and for your compliments on the experience. There are lots of people working very hard to provide the best possible customer experience at very reasonable prices. Your satisfaction and continued patronage mean a lot to us.

I understand your dilemma with Delta and the fact that we do not serve ATL, or many of the places you may want to go. That's just part of being a new airline--we can't do everything overnight. I do believe the lower ticket prices to LAX are a remnant of our ATL-LGB service. When Air Tran added the contracted A-320s to the route we knew they would be there to keep Delta honest with their ticket prices.



For those who think higher ticket prices are the way to make money in this industry, you are living in the past. That old paradigm is dead. As long as you and your management continue to believe that, you will never be successful. The key to success is providing tickets at a price that will STIMULATE the market and fill your aircraft.



Thanks again for your comments. Rest assured that we are not resting on our laurels. We are continuously looking for ways to improve the experience. We also know that we are only as good as our last flight and we have to continue to maintain the same high standards to keep you as a customer.



I look forward to having you fly JetBlue again. Next time, please stick your head in the cockpit and say “hi” on your way in. We’ll be there to say “Thank you for flying JetBlue” as you leave.

 

[Whirlwind]

For those who think higher ticket prices are the way to make money in this industry, you are living in the past. That old paradigm is dead. As long as you and your management continue to believe that, you will never be successful. The key to success is providing tickets at a price that will STIMULATE the market and fill your aircraft.

The problem with that logic is that it is just a tad too close to the old adage, "we lose money on every sale, but we'll make it up in volume".

You can fill airplanes all day long, but if you do it at a price below cost, it just doesn't matter.

JetBlue has very favorable terms on its aircraft leases right now and they do not have 20 year employees to look after. It will be interesting to see how well they do after the 5 year point and some of those costs start kicking in.

Delta, American, United, etc. need to start making some money, or the whole issue will be moot.

 

[350DRIVER]

JetBlue has very favorable terms on its aircraft leases right now and they do not have 20 year employees to look after. It will be interesting to see how well they do after the 5 year point and some of those costs start kicking in.

I was waiting for someone to make light of this.... JB has done wonderful so far but wait till they start having to pay.

nor are they paying their employees anywhere near DL wages. Just for kicks compare DL pilot pay to that of JB, big big difference..

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[standaman]

I still can't figure out why so many people are disliking RJs. What is wrong with them. They help to increase frequency for business travels, no middle seats, and faster deplane times. If you want to get a movie and a meal those typically are only found on long distance flights anyway. What kind of service are you looking for on flights 2 hours or less. I frankly can't tell the difference between flying on an RJ or any mainline plane on these short flights.

 

[Whirlwind]

I was waiting for someone to make light of this.... JB has done wonderful so far but wait till they start having to pay.

JB will also start to experience higher labor costs in the future as people build up time with the company.

nor are they paying their employees anywhere near DL wages. Just for kicks compare DL pilot pay to that of JB, big big difference..

The thing is, it is Delta's problem to solve.

 

[Publishers]

Yield Management

Over the years, the yield management systems developed by the airlines overcame a deteriorating margin as more and more customers were looking for and finding discounted tickets.

It became a science to get both the business customer and the vacationing family all on the same plane paying extremely different prices for the same product.

While the airlines thought it cool, the business people did not as they were paying through the nose for tickets while Joe and his family were annoying them at a deeply discounted ticket/

I have probably over 700,000 miles on Delta and for years and years they and Piedmont were two of my favorite airlines to fly. Southern hospitatlity if you will. Of course, US managed to screw up the Piedmont airline and Delta tried vanely to get everyone to Atlanta.

Anyone who does not think that the product has not gone south is not looking. Since 9/11, I have flown Air Tran, America West, Southwest, Delta, and American. They all left on time, arrived on time, were reasonably full. Other than being able to see the seating chart and getting what I want on Delta's web site, the service was pretty much the same.

We have not discussed it much, but the death of travel agents is indicative of the travel trends as much as anything. They made their money off expensive tickets, and the web made their knowledge obsolete.

The American traveling public made it known before now that they were not happy with the fare, it has just taken the industry longer to accept it because yield management and other efficiencies masked what was happening.

 

[moscowcfi]

Whoopty-freakin'-do. Airlines carry thousands of passenger everyday, thousands of CEOs and VPs. Thousands of Hollywood starlets, government higher-ups and old money debutantes. I don't care what you do or how much money your company handles. Everyone on my plane is worthy of the same respect, courtesy and professionalism.

This is indeed a prime example of respect, courtesy and professionalism.

 

[benjakes]

Thanks for your comments. Most of the issues raised have already been dealt with, but as an AirTran pilot, I do want to address your comments regarding AirTran.

First- I flew on AirTran as a passenger in 1999 and swore I would never fly on them again. Having said that, I noticed a complete turnaround in effect in 2001 when I bummed a free ride to ATL. New airplanes, happy flght crews- huge change. I went from "Never flying on these guys again" to sending in a resume after that experience.

Ty, I think I was a little misunderstood. The intent of my message is/was that Airtran HAS come a long way, and they do not resemble the company they were three years ago. Most of my experiences were before the new planes, but I have flown them three times in the last few months. My only suggestions would be to establish a frequent flier program that rewards loyal passengers with:

1)prefered seating, boarding, and upgrading.
2)Increased destinations/flights (will come with growth)
3)Flight change flexibility. This is the big one. If I am in Chicago, and instead of going back to ATL, I need to go to LGA, I lose the ATL ticket, No matter what. Let me hold it for a year, or charge me a resonable change fee, or both. Don't just say too bad.

I have been here now almost three years. I have never seen a flight canceled for lack of passengers. In fact, the EMO (Early Morning Originators) are THE most important flights to get in the air . . . . period. They DO NOT cancel for ridership. Maybe the unfortunate experiences you had were due to either DC9 or RJ aircraft, but the B717 is turning in a 99.6% completion factor. In any event, the DC9's are all gone, and the last RJ flights will end in July.

good to hear!


Having said that, I do have to say that I bum rides on Delta pretty frequently, and most Delta crews are very professional, both the F/A's and the pilots. The gate agents can run hot and cold. Some of them still have a sense of entitlement, but they, too, will get the message eventually. I am sure that the better ones would really wince at your comments, and I would anticipate that the customer service will improve once management decides to focus on that aspect of the operation. As someone else pointed out, it's hard for many poeple to smile when you are worried about your livelihood.

This is a lesson I have learned since this e-mail was started. I looked at the situation from my perspective, both in comparison to other airlines, and to "old Delta", which, while accurate, did not have compassion for the "employees" and their hardships.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Hang in there . . . it's only transportation, try not to let it bother you while the kinks get sorted out. It still beats driving, most of the time!

I have a in/out flight to Orlando next week. I will let you know how it goes.

Regards,

TW[/QUOTE]

 

[benjakes]

wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS....

It isn't about the DL pilots....

#1-Sorry I upset you. My intent was not to brag. It was to say "I fly a lot".

Sorry, I tried to switch, trust me. Too many layovers out of ATL. Family comes first.