A loyal Platinum Delta business pass speaks up

[pilotyip]

Pilot vs Doctor get serious

"Flight crews are as skilled as a physician and are asked give up the moon. I don't remember anyone asking their Dr. to take a pay cut before they went into surgery".

A high school drop out can make a living flying an airplane and have a skill level equal to anyone out there driving airplanes, in fact I know one at a major. Doctors can not. Doctor's are trained in unique specialties; they have an elimination process with many obstacles to overcome to get to their profession operating level. When you need a heart transplant, or have cancer, you make sure you have best available in that field and you pay whatever he wants. Pilots on the other hand are a commodity, a company or an airline needs a COM/INST/MEL rated pilot, there are 1,000's to chose from, and the job goes to the lowest bidder. Skill above a minimum level means little to the employer. In fact the skill level above the minimum has little to do with the hiring process, personality, work ethic, etc, play more into the pilot hiring process than hours and ratings. Anyone with a certain level of skill and some desire can become a pilot. Doctors become pilots all the time, and any doctor with the desire can become a pilot. (I know, I know they kill themselves in airplanes, but that is more a personality fault, than a skill short fall) The reverse is not true very few professional pilots have the skill to become doctors. I love flying, do it as much as I can, and I enjoy flying anything with wings, and that is reason I came back to aviation. But I think sometimes pilots have a misplaced why they fly, if you are in it because you like flying, you will not be disappointed. If you are in for the money, you may be disappointed. If you want money become a doctor.

 

[:-)]

I decided to comment because I think that Delta/ASA/Comair and it's pilot's have lost perspective.

Ben, couple of notes. First, you fired the first shot and the responses could hardly be characterized as "attacks". Had you claimed to be a Freedom pilot, or Captain Dan Ford, then you might have been attacked.

You didn't state how long you had been reading this bbs. If you've read it very long, you would know that it sometimes takes a few days to get a broad range of opinions. We pilots don't all carry laptops, so when the senior boys who work during the week read your string the tone will change.

Ref: the above quote. How do you know that the pilots have lost perspective? You have two friends, that doesn't really give you complete knowledge of the situation. We sit behind a locked and armoured door. The problems you address are not pilot problems, they are customer service problems, so why log on here and state that pilots have lost perspective? If you get defensive answers, that would be because you are dealing with people who are defensive. Generally speaking, in the last few years airline pilots have suffered: loss of pay, loss of seniority, reduced pay, increased duty, loss of retirement, etc, and we have to get strip searched every time we go to work because the TSA needs to make a show of "security"

We didn't create the problems you identify. We don't make decisions on aircraft utilization. We don't decide how much it costs to change a ticket. We don't keep you from having a beer during a two hour wait. We're with on the anti-rj rant, with rare exceptions, we also would rather be flying a 777.

Do you realize that the attitude problem you think you have identified is possessed mainly by the flight attendents? Do you realize that the longest reply you have received came not from a pilot but from a flight attendent?


Remember, we sit behind the locked door and most importantly remember this. If we the pilots gave up our contractual working conditions and worked for free, the carriers would still be having problems.

So why do you assume that the industry's problems are the result of our "being worried about ourselves"? For that matter, why do we not get to be worried about ourselves? Are you not worried about yourself? What have you seen a JetBlue pilot do that you have not seen the rest of us do?

I don't doubt that the overall B6 experience is better than DCI/DAL, I just don't see how pilots are any large part of the problem or solution.

 

[benjakes]

Calvin,

You are right about me becoming defensive. Writing is difficult sometimes, because the wrong emotion is sometimes read into a statement.

My apologies. I will wait until all read and or post to get more perspective.

Ben,

PS-I read the board for about 3 weeks.... But I can allways learn

 

[bafanguy]

Benjakes,


There 's little I can add to the excellent posts by BlueBlood, ATL2CDG, and . They've very accurately expressed the frustration felt on the "inside". But, by now, I'd hope you've gotten the message that you're expressing your frustrations to the WRONG group. We have very little control over the issues you mention. Your experience of getting back some form letter in reply to your letter to senior DL management tells you all you need to know, doesn't it ? I quit writing to them because I too got tired of Form Letter #6 from their word processor.

The only angle I can add is that the whole airline world has changed; all the forces impacting what airlines do have changed. DL is not immmune to these influences. Employees can only "hang on". You experience your frustration only when riding on DL; employees live it every day in their attempt to deal with it all.

When I signed on as a DL pilot 30+ years ago ( I bailed 4 years early, 9 months ago), the airline actually lived up to its reputation on the street, both as a place to work and a provider of a service...and it showed in the pax eyes. If you think YOU are irritated and frustrated at what DL has become, try watching the slide from the inside !! DL is now just another airline and no one I know who has spent the majority of his adult life there is happy about it. The company no longer has the soul that made it "Delta" because the management isn't "Delta" but just a bunch of carpetbaggers who came in to profit from misfortune and move on ( witness the recent, and on-going exodus from the G.O ).

If you are not pleased with your face-to-face experiences with DL, I don't know what to tell you other than, "...get in line...". People are just people ( and extremely complicated ) and will eventually display the unpleasant effects of years of frustration, negative influences, and in a lot of cases, fear for their careers. We can talk all day about what "should" be; it would be a waste of breath. Human nature rules.

Personally, I've avoided getting mad as it would only punish ME. But, my circumstances are considerably more fortunate ( through no doing of mine ) than a lot of DL employees. I can, however, imagine myself in their postion and get the idea. Maybe you can too.

I wish I could tell you something more encouraging. Maybe someone will offer a different view. Ask them if they spent 30 years, 6 months there...

 

[benjakes]

Great Post Bafanguy. Thank you. It is your attitude and professional demeanor I remember from past days.

I was thinking that their was still hope yet.... I don't want to see Delta go away.

I am starting to believe the parties are too injured to recover.

 

[JungleJetFO]

Mr. Jakes,
Thank you for your commentary. It has actually given me a little bit of the jolt I need to remember I am in a customer oriented profession. I sometimes forget that after a 12-14 hour work day in which, I too, have been sitting around waiting for weather to clear up or maintenance on the jet. I wish I had a little more influence on all the others in my profession to remember that too. I have flown with good and bad pilots and flight attendants in this area and it's amazing how one person can make a difference. I have flown flights that arrived 10 minutes early and all the passengers are mad because the flight attendant treated them like crap and I've been on flights in which we were an hour late but all the passengers just raved about the flight because the flight attendant treated them great.
You too can be an influence with letters to management and union leaders even if you think you haven't been heard. Hopefully, over time, positive changes will be made. Until then, you'll have to make your point by flying the airlines that are best for you. I've heard a lot of Jet Blue bashing from fellow pilots but to tell you the truth, we need these new airlines to keep from getting fat and ugly and arrogant. Maybe it's too late for some of the legacy airlines, I hope not.

regards

 

[350DRIVER]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company.

wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS....

It isn't about the DL pilots....

3 5 0

 

[:-)]

Calvin,

You are right about me becoming defensive. Writing is difficult sometimes, because the wrong emotion is sometimes read into a statement.

My apologies. I will wait until all read and or post to get more perspective.

Ben,

PS-I read the board for about 3 weeks.... But I can allways learn

No apology necessary. Now that we've gotten to this point, I agree with you that we all need to be courteous. If I was first Lady, I think I'd make courtesy my "issue". I'm not going to be first, or a lady , anytime soon, but they always have a pet issue so it seems like a good illustration.

If you want to experience discourteous agents, try being an offline jumpseater. To be fair, I can't name a specific airline, but there are some witch's out there. BTW, the pilots here know this, but an offline jumpseater has no rights of travel. We beg for a ride. I, for one, never act as if I expect anything and am always polite to a fault (I want to get home, I don't mind groveling to get there), however I sometimes receive worse treatment than would a stray dog. The fact that such an employee continues to maintain his/her employment astounds me.

Please continue posting. and don't take anything personal.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS...."



Nice......and proved his point quite well I might add.........

 

[350DRIVER]

Point is that he is not satisfied, the very simple and elementary solution would be to not fly on them anymore, not brain surgery.

3 5 0

keep in mind that you will normally only hear the complaint and negative stories, God forbid someone would actually post a good experience on them then they would get flamed.

 

[tscarecrow]

why?

350 -

There is an interesting, rational discussion taking place here (not a common thing on this BBS), and you choose to come along with that worthless tidbit of negativity. How disappointing.

Sorry to interject here folks, please carry on with this discussion. I'm finding it very enlightening.

 

[rvsm410]

The Most for the Least..getting what you pay for.

This is a great Heart and Soul thread, where almost all the parties involved have come to this table, the customer, the Pilots, Flight attendants, and a dispatcher, of course no management….they cant think outside the box to save there life anyway.

I agree with most all of what I have read on this thread, especially with "blueblood" about getting what we pay for. The problem is the "Wal-Mart" mentality of the passengers....they want all the services but don’t want to pay for them....But why is this?

When the auto gas prices go up, do we stop driving? No, we complain about it, and then go fill up the old SUV so we can continue with our plans and daily life. Did you know that a Gallon on 87 in Britian costs $5.69! They still drive.


Same goes for much in our lives, food, the cost of housing, rent or buying, insurance etc etc..we still pay the higher prices...it’s just what things cost now. Somehow the airlines have been excluded from this Normal economic reality ever since deregulation...The consumer has developed a "garage sale mentality" and will always demand lower prices if the situation allows it, our industry has allowed it to happen to itself and now it is imploding because the prices have NOT kept up with inflation like everything else has…..


Does anyone really think todays LLC fares are going to be the same in 10 years when their labor rates match and exceed todays mainline rates??? Cost of aircraft go up, Of course not....this will happen all over agin in 10 years, except it will be aimed at todays LCC's then.


So today, the classic management response thus far is to cut labor costs, cut services, get smaller, reorganize routes, and schedules etc…..the only thing we have not done is tell the American public, its going to cost more in the future to fly, and it is not coming back down….That's it!

If you want to enjoy a pleasant flight, get service, travel 6 mile a minute and and avoid that 4 day drive, it has to be worth paying for.


People are already tired of the 50-70 seat sardine cans…..They have there place to serve.

People are tried of the cattle car routine with no assigned seating, long lines.

People really do like to have nice services, and miss them, this will get worse.

People are tired of the TSA at airports, but they are getting over it and just doing it! I hope this will get better.


The LCC’s can’t fly everyone ( they account for 27% of all passengers) if the Majors were to just stop flying for a week or more in support of each others efforts to raise prices to make a profit maybe the industry would get some attention. Could you imagine the lines at the SWA counters. They could not handle it. The passengers would be really pissed off at everyone! But we would get their attention.

Yeap I’m talking about a monopoly on flying, of course its illegal, the government would stop it, but what is the government going to do if ALL the MAJORS went belly up? The results are the same but the companies are GONE.


Sure people will flock to the LCC’s for at first, they will drive, and some large layoffs would occur at mainline while jets are parked….it’s going to be a shock to the system, but they will get over it….and we will better for it I the LONG run. Something BIG has to happen to get out of this cycle of doom and gloom….


I think it’s time for a form of price regulation by the government; After all isn't the ATSB nothing more than a subsidy anyway. The public will get over it and time heals all.


And Speaking of a Wal-Mart mentality, those aviation professionals out here willing to work for what seems any amount of money just to wear a uniform or cut a flight release, well you are doing the same thing the passengers are doing to the airlines, allowing yourself to be bought CHEAP. Then we have the gall to complain about it later?

I for one have interviewed with many regional carriers, offered jobs and turned them down because I will not work for the peanuts they want to pay. As a former Military aircraft commander the responsibilities of a pilot are enormous, we all know this to be so, however, after loosing my medical retiring and going into dispatch, the responsibilities are equally as challenging but different in that we are not sitting in the pointy end of the can, never the less we may be the only one at that dredded NTSB review answering for our flight with our butts on the line. We should be compensated according to our level of responsibility just as a pilot should.

I think it’s shameful to pay dispatchers and pilots $17K to $25K a year with all they are in control of, I feel some of the unions are a great contributing factor to this syndrome along with the companies attitude towards pay, it needs to be broke! Regional Jobs are the only jobs most will ever have, pay them....

Sure you say its easy for me to say, I’m drawing retirement pay….will all the more reason that I “could” accept minimal pay to dispatch for the “love of it” but I am not going to sell myself down the river for the “love of Aviation” even if I never release another flight. I personally believe more folks should do the same, Bring it to the attention of managers and unions, it will take time. Dry up the new hire supply and see what would happen to starting pay. But this is just my opinion for which I stand true.



Col. Bill Williamson USAF (ret)

 

[350DRIVER]

scarecrow,

interesting discussion? OK.......the original poster was displeased with DL, product, service, etc, and I simply was pointing out that there was a very very simple solution to this problem, do not fly DL. This is not brain surgery, what positive will come from this? As a former DL employee myself I can tell you that no matter what kind of product that you have you still will never please everyone. The bottom line is that DL has very loyal pax who have been around for years, enjoy the service, etc, and that ain't going to change due to a few that are not pleased.

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc. I merely pointed out that if he was so pleased with JB then that would be the route that he should take...


DL pilots set the bar back in 2000 with regards to pilot pay and even with the cuts they will end up taking they will still be the highest paid in the industry, sorry if that p!sses some off....



3 5 0

 

[Whirlwind]

There is a simple truth that has been overlooked by all but a few...

American Airlines charges $129 to fly from New York to Los Angeles. How the heck can you make any money selling tickets on a Boeing 757 for that price?

Maybe that price made sense 15 years ago, but in 2004???

Lets look at a few numbers... The plane has about 200 seats, lets say they fill 70% of them. It also has 8 first class seats, 4 of which have paying pax at $464 each way.

That is a total of $19916 in income. Anyone have any idea what it costs to fly a 757 across the United States? I'm willing to bet that once you count in all the expenses, it is higher than $20K.

There, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with this business. The prices are not high enough to support the product being offered.

Thoughts?

 

[Whirlwind]

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc.

Eh? I hate to say it, but I disagree. I've flown both, and there really isn't any real difference, other than the fact that JetBlue has much newer airplanes.

Both get you from here to there, at about the same speed, on the same basic type of airplane (a metal tube with wings that goes ~mach 0.85)