A loyal Platinum Delta business pass speaks up

[benjakes]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company.

I also make it a point to be polite on flights, and to always thank the flight attendants, and the pilots on every flight.

I decided to comment because I think that Delta/ASA/Comair and it's pilot's have lost perspective.

I can't stand Delta anymore, but have no choice but to continue flying them in most cases. I tried stopping for 6 months last year, but it cut into my family time too much. The way they treat there customers is terrible. More on that later.

Years ago, I had no problem spending 2100 for a full fare ticket at the last minute. We use AMEX travel, who would only book on "main" airlines. Now, when I went for my ticket to LAX at the last minute this week, it was 400.00 RT. I have not spent more than 800 for a ticket in the last two years, and that is without more than a 7 day advance. I reference this because times have changed. I cannot, nor can my managers or sales rep, spend $2100 for a ticket anymore. Profit=revenue per flight-cost(overhead) per flight.

Now, my issues:

ASA/Comair- I can't stand the little planes. I don't mind coach, but in order to get 50 or 70 seats in those plains, they absolutly squish you together. If I wanted to go on a discount airline, I would have flown Jetblue, or Airtran. Also, just the marketing sucks. Delta knows service on these flights is substandard, so they try to say it is not Delta. Sorry folks, my bill says Delta, I call the same # to book, and you credit my medallion account the same miles. Improve your service/planes. Finally, can a man buy a beer if he has to sit someplace for 2 hours?

Delta- I no longer feel special or wanted when I fly with you. If I pay for 100 RT tickets a year, why do I have to pay 25.00 to change a flight, and have NO priority if there is a seat? Also, the medallion program is the worst in the industry. Hardest to achieve, the least rewards. Second, with the cutbacks and pending bankruptcy, the morale is poor, and people just aren't as freindly anymore. What happened to smiling?

I have some very fond memories of the "old morale" Pilots last flights and the water rainbows, gifts, famillies. We were made to feel part of the family.

I made it a point to be on the first planes AFTER 9-11. A pilot on a 777 to Orlando made it a point to get a customer list, with your medallion level, and thanked us by name and recognized our contribution by level. He shook each of our hands personally!

I have also noticed that service, atmoshpere, professionalism, and attitude is by far the best on 777's. I often wonder if it is because of pay (I am assuming here), experience, the plane itself, or just because the leadership of the pilots.

Airtran-I used to fly you some, but stopped after about 4 out of 6 6:20 AM flights were cancelled because of "mechanical" problems. When their are only two other passengers at the gate, I need to question the real reason. I will say, in the last 12 months I have flown them a few times and they are getting their act together. I enjoy the new planes. They still need some work to appeal to the business traveler though.

JetBlue-I have flown three times. The new Airbus has lots of room, people are freindly, seats are leather, direct TV at each seat, I can get a beer, and the people smile. I felt wanted. The best flights I have had in the last year. I do believe they set the benchmark in the industry now.

I reference this because I want to fly Delta, and be loyal to my city. I do not want you to go bankrupt. I do usually pay more to be loyal to you. The whole organization needs to change though. I challenge each of you to be a passenger on JetBlue, right now the standard of excellence (to me at least), and then ask yourself "why should people pay more to fly my airplane"?

If you struggle to answer that question, then the real problem is not pilots pay, or management. It is that the both of you are so worried about yourselves, and your competition is not.

 

[EagleRJ]

Excellent points. Over the past few years, we've seen service and amenities at the legacy carriers go downhill, while startups offer more to the customer at lower cost. As a pilot at the regional feeder of an alleged "full-service" airline, I hear it all the time. Customers buy tickets on airlines like American because it's the only way to get where they are going, or because of the loyalty incentives.

The RJ is the darling of airline management nowdays, due to efficiency and profitability, either real or imagined. There's no question that it has its place in the system, like connecting the "long, thin" routes that wouldn't be justified for mainline service. Overall, though, passengers hate them. No space, no room for carry ons, noisy, no food, no First Class, no music or movies. It's no secret that Management is trying to expand RJs onto mainline narrowbody routes as much as possible, due to lower labor costs.The RJ is therefore here to stay.

It's always been my contention that the "legacy" airlines have to set the standard on amenities, and not just rely on their widespread routes and established loyalty programs to keep customers coming. There used to be complimentary liquor, peanuts, hot food even in Coach, kiddie wings and coloring books, music, etc. It was all killed to cut costs, but the Low Cost Carriers somehow find it in their budgets to offer the goodies anyway.
Darwin's Law of Natural Selection is at work in the airline industry today, and the legacy airlines are no longer setting the standard- they are playing catch-up. The expansion and profitability has always gone to the airlines that give the customers what they want. The customers are now speaking up with their wallets, travel agencies, and company travel planners. We can ignore them at our peril.

As for the lack of cheer out there, most of it is understandable. Employees in general are doing more work with less staffing, and the layoffs are still going out. Having a competent, understanding, communicative management team would go a long way towards making difficult working conditions tolerable. Unfortunately, most of us are lacking in that department.

 

[BlueBlood]

Concerned Plat Med Flyer.....

Mr. Platinum,

I appreciate your candor and reference to a number of airlines and not just Delta. You couldn't be more correct stating morale is in the tank, service sucks, options are less than desirable, and comfort on the RJ (50-70 Seater) is lacking. Unfortunately Sir, this is a Wal-Mart industry that used to cater to those who were willing to pay for service. Now it's all about how little you can get for your buck. The airlines make you feel like you should thank them for just getting you there, regardless if you are on time. The small jets are less comfortable than a 767 or a 737, but they offer a solution to two problems. Problem one is frequency and problem two is empty seats. The customer gets more flights to choose from and the airline gets to operate an aircraft with fewer empty seats.

Service is the center of what we do, and sadly, not everyone understands that. The customer is the reason I have a job. Thank you for your business.

Morale is horrible. You buy a Delta ticket through Delta reservations and get on an airplane that says Delta, but it's not Delta; it's ASA, Comair, Chatauqua, or SKywest. Vastly different worlds between Mother Delta and their "unqualified", and underpaid counterparts at the small jet operators. Our window of opportunity has closed. I will never see the cockpit of a major airline or make the coveted $300K/annum I thought one day possible. I will have to enjoy my $35K/annum and just be thankful that I get to do what I enjoy, or at least used to. The crews of the small jets are as qualified and dedicated to their customers just as much as our "Major Airline" friends down the concourse.

Many ask, "If it's that bad, why not do something else?". The question I would ask them is, "What else is there?". Many have spent better than ten years to get somewhere and find out that the rules have changed and so has the destination. Forgive us for not having the intiative for doing something else or searching for greener pastures. The dying, yellow pasture we find ourselves in is all we know, by now, and qualified to graze in.

Flight crews are as skilled as a physician and are asked give up the moon. I don't remember anyone asking their Dr. to take a pay cut before they went into surgery. It's tough see any optimism from folks that have worked a lifetime to get where they are, only to have multi-million dollar CEOs tell them that they aren't doing enough.

Pardon me, but screw giving up the farm. Instead, raise the hell out of ticket prices and make the passenger pay for the service they get. Until then, passengers do need to be thankful that they got there, late or not, for $400.00 what did you expect, Mr. Jet-setter. You get what you pay for.

I started to apologize for your experience, but I'm tired of apologizing for being a professional and treated as if I were not. If you want it, pay for it. I've already paid for mine.

 

[ATL2CDG]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company. Whoopty-freakin'-do. Airlines carry thousands of passenger everyday, thousands of CEOs and VPs. Thousands of Hollywood starlets, government higher-ups and old money debutantes. I don't care what you do or how much money your company handles. Everyone on my plane is worthy of the same respect, courtesy and professionalism.

I decided to comment because I think that Delta/ASA/Comair and it's pilot's have lost perspective. A VP who doesn't know the difference between "its pilots" and the non-sensical "it's pilot's"? Yikes.

I can't stand Delta anymore, but have no choice but to continue flying them in most cases. I tried stopping for 6 months last year, but it cut into my family time too much. The way they treat there customers is terrible. More on that later. While your displeasure is duly noted and certainly understood, you also need to understand the circumstances that have created the situation in question. Furloughs, minimum staffing, pay cuts, pension under funding, overly critical management and customers and government harassment are not conductive to a productive and friendly work environment.

Years ago, I had no problem spending 2100 for a full fare ticket at the last minute. We use AMEX travel, who would only book on "main" airlines. Now, when I went for my ticket to LAX at the last minute this week, it was 400.00 RT. I have not spent more than 800 for a ticket in the last two years, and that is without more than a 7 day advance. I reference this because times have changed. I cannot, nor can my managers or sales rep, spend $2100 for a ticket anymore. Well, you said it yourself... Times have changed... If you're unwilling to pay more, then you’re going to have to expect a correlating decrease in services rendered. Simple economics.

Now, my issues:

ASA/Comair- I can't stand the little planes. Well, get used to them. Sure, Delta can fly a 737-200 with 12 passengers from Atlanta to Columbus, MS, but you're going to be a lot more than you are now. Or, just get rid of all the RJs and when you've got a total choice of 2 flights between Atlanta and Raleigh-Durham because of fleet reassignment, don't complain about not having enough choice. I don't mind coach, but in order to get 50 or 70 seats in those plains, they absolutly squish you together. Whine about the RJs all you want, but there are several facts to be noted. The seat pitch and seat size is the same as it is on mainline aircraft. On RJs, you have the benefit of not being crammed into a middle seat. If I wanted to go on a discount airline, I would have flown Jetblue, or Airtran. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the reference about 'discount airlines': jetBlue offers more seat pitch and AirTran offers comparable sit pitch, so you can't draw a comparison with the RJs. Also, just the marketing sucks. Delta knows service on these flights is substandard, so they try to say it is not Delta. Service is substandard? You get a beverage service, are offered the sale of alcoholic beverages, have available pillows, blankets and a lavatory, travel at the same speed and altitude (general) as our mainline counterparts. What's substandard about the service? Sorry folks, my bill says Delta, I call the same # to book, and you credit my medallion account the same miles. And you can complain about the marketing, but what about when you book with Delta and end up on an Air France, AeroMexico or Northwest flight? Do you still complain? You're made well aware of the carrier involved when you book your travel; if you don't like it, then find another means. It's not being hidden from you. Improve your service/planes. Again, what's wrong with the service? What's wrong with the planes (I've addressed the seat pitch/size and middle seat issue)? Finally, can a man buy a beer if he has to sit someplace for 2 hours? And unless you've got a 30 minute flight to Charleston, you can easily purchase a beer if intoxication is really so important to you.

Delta- I no longer feel special or wanted when I fly with you. If I pay for 100 RT tickets a year, why do I have to pay 25.00 to change a flight, and have NO priority if there is a seat? Because the rules have to apply to everyone. You already admitted that you're paying less for your tickets, yet you want to be able to make changes to your reservation, thereby disrupting revenue and seat management control, but don't want to be liable for the costs? For years, legacy carriers have let elite fliers throw their status around to avoid fees, but when push came to shove, they were paying cheapo fares for the ticket and then playing havoc by making a million changes without penalty, while the once-a-year vacationer was by a ticket at the same price, making a change, and paying the fare. Not very equitable. If you want flexibility, buy the non-restricted fare. Also, the medallion program is the worst in the industry. Hardest to achieve, the least rewards. I don't know or care anything about the FF program, so I'll have to keep my mouth shut on this. Second, with the cutbacks and pending bankruptcy, the morale is poor, and people just aren't as freindly anymore. What happened to smiling? You just answered your own question. Your pension is being under funded, you might not have a job in a year's time, the company is working you to the bare minimums without proper staffing, government oversight poses the risk of taking your job and then 98% of your passengers walk up and starting treating you like a circus animal. How are we supposed to react when you get on the airplane with your cellphone to your ear pulling one of the "I'm only doing it to look important" "I just called to touch base with you" phone calls without even making eye contact with the crew? I'm NEVER rude, but if you want me to smile in your face and be all giddy, then you're going to have to acknowledge my presence, actually make eye contact with me when I take your drink order and follow the snack and drink presentation with a sincere "thank you". Respect and courtesy is a two-way street.

I have also noticed that service, atmoshpere, professionalism, and attitude is by far the best on 777's. I often wonder if it is because of pay (I am assuming here), experience, the plane itself, or just because the leadership of the pilots. Well, it's because the pilots just got paid $1,000+ bring you to Paris and they are now to start a 24+ layover. Domestic 777 pilots do one roundtrip (usually no more than 8-10 hours on duty) and get to go home the same day. Whereas on your beloved RJs, the pilots and flight attendants are in the middle of a 12 hour, 5 leg day between 12 hour rest periods and have to turn the airplane around in 35 minutes in order to be on time.

I reference this because I want to fly Delta, and be loyal to my city. I do not want you to go bankrupt. I do usually pay more to be loyal to you. The whole organization needs to change though. I challenge each of you to be a passenger on JetBlue, right now the standard of excellence (to me at least), and then ask yourself "why should people pay more to fly my airplane"? Because you're not going to get to Fort Wayne, IN, Albany, GA or Alexandria, LA on jetBlue. If you want to travel to medium or small city, then you're going to have to pay more. It's not feasible to expect United, Delta or any other legacy carrier to have a worldwide network employing thousands of senior veterans in the various departments and not have to charge more. As jetBlue and AirTran age and grow, their costs will increase. Enjoy the honeymoon with 'em now, because it won't last.

If you struggle to answer that question, then the real problem is not pilots pay, or management. It is that the both of you are so worried about yourselves, and your competition is not. Well, considering that you haven't mentioned pilot pay in your entire rant until this point, I think it's a last minute argument to provoke a response. Delta pilots are doing well; they're the best paid in the industry. But I can assure you that there 'brethren' at ASA and CMR are not as 'affluent'; first year pilots at ASA qualify for food stamps. So, please, don't think that the issue it pilot pay or pilot ego. It's the nature of the beast. These large legacy carriers have 50,000+ employees, operate hundreds of stations (and subsequently leases, service contracts, etc.), employ the best mechanics, and serve cities where, without government aid or price inflation, they wouldn't turn a profit. I know it's easy for you to point at the pilots from your cushy first class seat and say, "J'accuse!", but until you educate yourself on all the facts at hand, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[benjakes]

Blueblood,

First, I am sorry. I think you missed my points.

1-We cannot go back.
2-Some very profitable airlines give much more service/comfort/appreciation than legacy airlines do, for less money. Remember, I am paying the higher fares in a lot of cases.
3-No matter what industry you are in, if you are not customer focused, you will lose sooner than later.
4-No profit, no money to worry about.


I think it is sad that the rate for pilots is diminishing. For refrence sake though, an average family practice doctor makes about 60% of what they did 10 years ago, and it is barely above 100k.

Last point I ponder. If a mainline pilot was starting out today instead of 20 years ago, would they still look down on RJ pilots? You do what you can when you are young to open doors. Once you are in the door, you try to improve the situation. If an RJ could go to a mainline and make more, most would. Sometimes, you have to make decisions based on feeding your family.

 

[benjakes]

ATL2CDG-

You are right, my grammer can always use improvement. The nun's/jesuit's did all they could....

In the beggining, I wasn't bragging. I was trying to give perspective. I am a regular person, who flies everyweek.

I was implying that I respect the profesionals who fly my plane. I do say high, make eye contact, and most times ask something along the lines of "going home, hopefully?" or "last leg of the day?".

I never walk on the plane using my cell phone, or at a check-in counter. I have manners, that I am trying my best to pass on to my children. I am also as annoyed by impolite people as you are.

Two of my best friends are pilots. One for Delta mainline, one for ASA. They hate each other.

RE:25.00 change fee. All I am suggesting is that a customer that generates 30,000 in revenue a year be allowed to switch flight before you give the seat to someone who give you 400 a year. I will pay the 25.00 gladly (it's expensed). The work is the same either way.

Finally, I am sorry about all you have suffered through. I am sure their is more suffering to come. It is not, industry wide.

 

[Publishers]

Once

Once again, we tell the customer how screwed up their thinking is and wonder why we lose them.

 

[EagleRJ]

RE:25.00 change fee. All I am suggesting is that a customer that generates 30,000 in revenue a year be allowed to switch flight before you give the seat to someone who give you 400 a year. I will pay the 25.00 gladly (it's expensed). The work is the same either way.

I agree that charging you $25 to switch is a foolish business decision, but like many things, it's completely out of the employees' control.

Every day, I see idiotic actions by the airline that inconvenience the passengers. One example is tankering fuel to save $200 by not buying fuel at the outstation, and then deciding which five passengers to bump off for a $200 voucher each, since now we're too heavy to carry them.

In most cases, we can't take the initiative to fix problems like that. It's not our decision to make- we "just fly the plane". Your concerns would carry more weight if you wrote letters to the airlines' customer service departments directly.

 

[:-)]

Ben, I agree with the tone of your post. But I have to ask, have you written to DAL HQ and expressed the same feelings? Management is responsible for EVERYTHING, every area that you address. What you see is the result of managements failure to provide leadership, vision, encouragement and the proper perspective for its human assets.

Yes, we peons should try and be happy, (see my signature line) if only for our own mental health; but I could be as happy as the proverbial clown and your experience at DAL would still suck. It is not I that determines the aircraft you fly, nor the $25 change fee you dislike.

Post a copy of the letter you sent/send to HQ, along with the official response and then let's talk.

cheers,

 

[benjakes]

For what's it's worth, a year or so ago, when I thought Delta cared, I wrote a long letter to Leo and copied Duane (thinking that he would thank me as it was a clear example on how Delta doesn't care and is mismanaged). My neighbor suggested copying Duane, saying the union was looking for examples such as this.

Recieved xeroxed form letter from Delta, stating they are sorry, nothing ever from Union.

To me, it is sad. Everyone is going to lose if things don't change, but no one has the balls to stand up and fix things.

Maybe all I am trying to do is to make everyone realize that the emperors (labor and management) have no clothes.....

 

[RJPilott]

Ben, try Independence Air. We have several flights a day out of ATL and our RJ's have been fitted with a new comfortable interior. Give us a shot, you may like the experience (especially the price). All reservations are made via our website at www.flyi.com. We are also getting the Airbus with TV's in the seat backs and you will get a smile. One of our core values is, "I am about the customer first". We do everything we can to get to a yes.

 

[vclean]

Commercial aviation has changed. The flying public demands Greyhound/AmTrak prices to fly coast to coast. As in most things in life, you get what you pay for.
There are no more Cadillacs in the sky, we're all Chevys and Fords.

If you feel the need for cheerful personal service, catered meals, and point to point schedules that agree with yours, call NetJets. I'm sure your 3.6B company can justify the addional expense.

http://www.netjets.com
http://www.flightoptions.com
http://www.citationshares.com

 

[benjakes]

Stuck at LGA because of weather in ATL. Not sure if that is pissing me off the most, or the attacks I am weathering.

I stick by my challenge. Go fly JetBlue and tell me why Delta is better/will survive?

Maybe WSJ was right, Darwin is alive and well......

Finally, no, my company cannot afford private flights. Secondly, it is/would only be at the CEO/Board level. I am no where close to that...

 

[SpiffAV8]

benjakes


I honestly have empathy for you.


Years ago I started in the aviation biz working line service at a local FBO in Salt Lake City. A short time later I moved over to the airline world and went to work for Delta. I was with them for several years and held various positions ranging from baggage handler to lavatory service, ticket agent to baggage claim. Now days, I am a Capitan for a large 135 cargo company and waiting for the call from the airlines. I can honestly say I have seen a great deal of what you are talking about.



It is sad that more individuals don’t know what it takes to be a true professional. Honestly, the customer doesn’t care about labor problems or your personal gripes. The customer is only interested in a good experience and is usually willing to pay for it.



I have found some of the best service at the smaller stations. Delta in Colorado Spring, Co is one of my favorite. From the time you check in at the counter till the time you board at the gate you are greeted with a smile and thanked by name.



The type of equipment you fly on is a tuff one but I understand that it comes down to personal preferences. The crews are (or should be) doing there best regardless.



As for booking with one airline and ending up on another…your right. The level of service and accommodations should be up to or better than that of the airline you bought your ticket from.



Fees for ticket changes should be paid for by the customer regardless of there status. It’s a real pain and a lot of work. Seats should be given to FFs based on there status. Every company counts on the return customer and they should be given perks. Anyone who was ever a bartender or waitress understands that!



I will never work for DL, UA or AA or any of there commuters. But I will always remember the pilots and FAs who have left a good impression. Like the 767 Capitan who helped load baggage in a down pour so we could block out on time. Or the crew of a sold out 727, that spoke with each and every passenger after a mechanical on the last flight out. Walking the lines and answering questions, freeing three ticket agents to rebook everyone and find hotels for them.



It’s sad to see crew members of any type bag on a passenger who has just given us all there honest opinion. Most people just go some place else after a bad experience, never saying a word, never to return, no one knowing why they lost the income. Every airline out there needs more people like this you.



Sir you are correct and justified! I can only hope that some one will start to listen and make the changes needed to serve the customer with the respect they deserve. I sincerely hope you find not only what you pay for but for what you deserve.



Spiff

 

[benjakes]

Thanks Spiff

 

[pilotyip]

Pilot vs Doctor get serious

"Flight crews are as skilled as a physician and are asked give up the moon. I don't remember anyone asking their Dr. to take a pay cut before they went into surgery".

A high school drop out can make a living flying an airplane and have a skill level equal to anyone out there driving airplanes, in fact I know one at a major. Doctors can not. Doctor's are trained in unique specialties; they have an elimination process with many obstacles to overcome to get to their profession operating level. When you need a heart transplant, or have cancer, you make sure you have best available in that field and you pay whatever he wants. Pilots on the other hand are a commodity, a company or an airline needs a COM/INST/MEL rated pilot, there are 1,000's to chose from, and the job goes to the lowest bidder. Skill above a minimum level means little to the employer. In fact the skill level above the minimum has little to do with the hiring process, personality, work ethic, etc, play more into the pilot hiring process than hours and ratings. Anyone with a certain level of skill and some desire can become a pilot. Doctors become pilots all the time, and any doctor with the desire can become a pilot. (I know, I know they kill themselves in airplanes, but that is more a personality fault, than a skill short fall) The reverse is not true very few professional pilots have the skill to become doctors. I love flying, do it as much as I can, and I enjoy flying anything with wings, and that is reason I came back to aviation. But I think sometimes pilots have a misplaced why they fly, if you are in it because you like flying, you will not be disappointed. If you are in for the money, you may be disappointed. If you want money become a doctor.

 

[:-)]

I decided to comment because I think that Delta/ASA/Comair and it's pilot's have lost perspective.

Ben, couple of notes. First, you fired the first shot and the responses could hardly be characterized as "attacks". Had you claimed to be a Freedom pilot, or Captain Dan Ford, then you might have been attacked.

You didn't state how long you had been reading this bbs. If you've read it very long, you would know that it sometimes takes a few days to get a broad range of opinions. We pilots don't all carry laptops, so when the senior boys who work during the week read your string the tone will change.

Ref: the above quote. How do you know that the pilots have lost perspective? You have two friends, that doesn't really give you complete knowledge of the situation. We sit behind a locked and armoured door. The problems you address are not pilot problems, they are customer service problems, so why log on here and state that pilots have lost perspective? If you get defensive answers, that would be because you are dealing with people who are defensive. Generally speaking, in the last few years airline pilots have suffered: loss of pay, loss of seniority, reduced pay, increased duty, loss of retirement, etc, and we have to get strip searched every time we go to work because the TSA needs to make a show of "security"

We didn't create the problems you identify. We don't make decisions on aircraft utilization. We don't decide how much it costs to change a ticket. We don't keep you from having a beer during a two hour wait. We're with on the anti-rj rant, with rare exceptions, we also would rather be flying a 777.

Do you realize that the attitude problem you think you have identified is possessed mainly by the flight attendents? Do you realize that the longest reply you have received came not from a pilot but from a flight attendent?


Remember, we sit behind the locked door and most importantly remember this. If we the pilots gave up our contractual working conditions and worked for free, the carriers would still be having problems.

So why do you assume that the industry's problems are the result of our "being worried about ourselves"? For that matter, why do we not get to be worried about ourselves? Are you not worried about yourself? What have you seen a JetBlue pilot do that you have not seen the rest of us do?

I don't doubt that the overall B6 experience is better than DCI/DAL, I just don't see how pilots are any large part of the problem or solution.

 

[benjakes]

Calvin,

You are right about me becoming defensive. Writing is difficult sometimes, because the wrong emotion is sometimes read into a statement.

My apologies. I will wait until all read and or post to get more perspective.

Ben,

PS-I read the board for about 3 weeks.... But I can allways learn

 

[bafanguy]

Benjakes,


There 's little I can add to the excellent posts by BlueBlood, ATL2CDG, and . They've very accurately expressed the frustration felt on the "inside". But, by now, I'd hope you've gotten the message that you're expressing your frustrations to the WRONG group. We have very little control over the issues you mention. Your experience of getting back some form letter in reply to your letter to senior DL management tells you all you need to know, doesn't it ? I quit writing to them because I too got tired of Form Letter #6 from their word processor.

The only angle I can add is that the whole airline world has changed; all the forces impacting what airlines do have changed. DL is not immmune to these influences. Employees can only "hang on". You experience your frustration only when riding on DL; employees live it every day in their attempt to deal with it all.

When I signed on as a DL pilot 30+ years ago ( I bailed 4 years early, 9 months ago), the airline actually lived up to its reputation on the street, both as a place to work and a provider of a service...and it showed in the pax eyes. If you think YOU are irritated and frustrated at what DL has become, try watching the slide from the inside !! DL is now just another airline and no one I know who has spent the majority of his adult life there is happy about it. The company no longer has the soul that made it "Delta" because the management isn't "Delta" but just a bunch of carpetbaggers who came in to profit from misfortune and move on ( witness the recent, and on-going exodus from the G.O ).

If you are not pleased with your face-to-face experiences with DL, I don't know what to tell you other than, "...get in line...". People are just people ( and extremely complicated ) and will eventually display the unpleasant effects of years of frustration, negative influences, and in a lot of cases, fear for their careers. We can talk all day about what "should" be; it would be a waste of breath. Human nature rules.

Personally, I've avoided getting mad as it would only punish ME. But, my circumstances are considerably more fortunate ( through no doing of mine ) than a lot of DL employees. I can, however, imagine myself in their postion and get the idea. Maybe you can too.

I wish I could tell you something more encouraging. Maybe someone will offer a different view. Ask them if they spent 30 years, 6 months there...

 

[benjakes]

Great Post Bafanguy. Thank you. It is your attitude and professional demeanor I remember from past days.

I was thinking that their was still hope yet.... I don't want to see Delta go away.

I am starting to believe the parties are too injured to recover.

 

[JungleJetFO]

Mr. Jakes,
Thank you for your commentary. It has actually given me a little bit of the jolt I need to remember I am in a customer oriented profession. I sometimes forget that after a 12-14 hour work day in which, I too, have been sitting around waiting for weather to clear up or maintenance on the jet. I wish I had a little more influence on all the others in my profession to remember that too. I have flown with good and bad pilots and flight attendants in this area and it's amazing how one person can make a difference. I have flown flights that arrived 10 minutes early and all the passengers are mad because the flight attendant treated them like crap and I've been on flights in which we were an hour late but all the passengers just raved about the flight because the flight attendant treated them great.
You too can be an influence with letters to management and union leaders even if you think you haven't been heard. Hopefully, over time, positive changes will be made. Until then, you'll have to make your point by flying the airlines that are best for you. I've heard a lot of Jet Blue bashing from fellow pilots but to tell you the truth, we need these new airlines to keep from getting fat and ugly and arrogant. Maybe it's too late for some of the legacy airlines, I hope not.

regards

 

[350DRIVER]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company.

wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS....

It isn't about the DL pilots....

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[:-)]

Calvin,

You are right about me becoming defensive. Writing is difficult sometimes, because the wrong emotion is sometimes read into a statement.

My apologies. I will wait until all read and or post to get more perspective.

Ben,

PS-I read the board for about 3 weeks.... But I can allways learn

No apology necessary. Now that we've gotten to this point, I agree with you that we all need to be courteous. If I was first Lady, I think I'd make courtesy my "issue". I'm not going to be first, or a lady , anytime soon, but they always have a pet issue so it seems like a good illustration.

If you want to experience discourteous agents, try being an offline jumpseater. To be fair, I can't name a specific airline, but there are some witch's out there. BTW, the pilots here know this, but an offline jumpseater has no rights of travel. We beg for a ride. I, for one, never act as if I expect anything and am always polite to a fault (I want to get home, I don't mind groveling to get there), however I sometimes receive worse treatment than would a stray dog. The fact that such an employee continues to maintain his/her employment astounds me.

Please continue posting. and don't take anything personal.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS...."



Nice......and proved his point quite well I might add.........

 

[350DRIVER]

Point is that he is not satisfied, the very simple and elementary solution would be to not fly on them anymore, not brain surgery.

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keep in mind that you will normally only hear the complaint and negative stories, God forbid someone would actually post a good experience on them then they would get flamed.

 

[tscarecrow]

why?

350 -

There is an interesting, rational discussion taking place here (not a common thing on this BBS), and you choose to come along with that worthless tidbit of negativity. How disappointing.

Sorry to interject here folks, please carry on with this discussion. I'm finding it very enlightening.

 

[rvsm410]

The Most for the Least..getting what you pay for.

This is a great Heart and Soul thread, where almost all the parties involved have come to this table, the customer, the Pilots, Flight attendants, and a dispatcher, of course no management….they cant think outside the box to save there life anyway.

I agree with most all of what I have read on this thread, especially with "blueblood" about getting what we pay for. The problem is the "Wal-Mart" mentality of the passengers....they want all the services but don’t want to pay for them....But why is this?

When the auto gas prices go up, do we stop driving? No, we complain about it, and then go fill up the old SUV so we can continue with our plans and daily life. Did you know that a Gallon on 87 in Britian costs $5.69! They still drive.


Same goes for much in our lives, food, the cost of housing, rent or buying, insurance etc etc..we still pay the higher prices...it’s just what things cost now. Somehow the airlines have been excluded from this Normal economic reality ever since deregulation...The consumer has developed a "garage sale mentality" and will always demand lower prices if the situation allows it, our industry has allowed it to happen to itself and now it is imploding because the prices have NOT kept up with inflation like everything else has…..


Does anyone really think todays LLC fares are going to be the same in 10 years when their labor rates match and exceed todays mainline rates??? Cost of aircraft go up, Of course not....this will happen all over agin in 10 years, except it will be aimed at todays LCC's then.


So today, the classic management response thus far is to cut labor costs, cut services, get smaller, reorganize routes, and schedules etc…..the only thing we have not done is tell the American public, its going to cost more in the future to fly, and it is not coming back down….That's it!

If you want to enjoy a pleasant flight, get service, travel 6 mile a minute and and avoid that 4 day drive, it has to be worth paying for.


People are already tired of the 50-70 seat sardine cans…..They have there place to serve.

People are tried of the cattle car routine with no assigned seating, long lines.

People really do like to have nice services, and miss them, this will get worse.

People are tired of the TSA at airports, but they are getting over it and just doing it! I hope this will get better.


The LCC’s can’t fly everyone ( they account for 27% of all passengers) if the Majors were to just stop flying for a week or more in support of each others efforts to raise prices to make a profit maybe the industry would get some attention. Could you imagine the lines at the SWA counters. They could not handle it. The passengers would be really pissed off at everyone! But we would get their attention.

Yeap I’m talking about a monopoly on flying, of course its illegal, the government would stop it, but what is the government going to do if ALL the MAJORS went belly up? The results are the same but the companies are GONE.


Sure people will flock to the LCC’s for at first, they will drive, and some large layoffs would occur at mainline while jets are parked….it’s going to be a shock to the system, but they will get over it….and we will better for it I the LONG run. Something BIG has to happen to get out of this cycle of doom and gloom….


I think it’s time for a form of price regulation by the government; After all isn't the ATSB nothing more than a subsidy anyway. The public will get over it and time heals all.


And Speaking of a Wal-Mart mentality, those aviation professionals out here willing to work for what seems any amount of money just to wear a uniform or cut a flight release, well you are doing the same thing the passengers are doing to the airlines, allowing yourself to be bought CHEAP. Then we have the gall to complain about it later?

I for one have interviewed with many regional carriers, offered jobs and turned them down because I will not work for the peanuts they want to pay. As a former Military aircraft commander the responsibilities of a pilot are enormous, we all know this to be so, however, after loosing my medical retiring and going into dispatch, the responsibilities are equally as challenging but different in that we are not sitting in the pointy end of the can, never the less we may be the only one at that dredded NTSB review answering for our flight with our butts on the line. We should be compensated according to our level of responsibility just as a pilot should.

I think it’s shameful to pay dispatchers and pilots $17K to $25K a year with all they are in control of, I feel some of the unions are a great contributing factor to this syndrome along with the companies attitude towards pay, it needs to be broke! Regional Jobs are the only jobs most will ever have, pay them....

Sure you say its easy for me to say, I’m drawing retirement pay….will all the more reason that I “could” accept minimal pay to dispatch for the “love of it” but I am not going to sell myself down the river for the “love of Aviation” even if I never release another flight. I personally believe more folks should do the same, Bring it to the attention of managers and unions, it will take time. Dry up the new hire supply and see what would happen to starting pay. But this is just my opinion for which I stand true.



Col. Bill Williamson USAF (ret)

 

[350DRIVER]

scarecrow,

interesting discussion? OK.......the original poster was displeased with DL, product, service, etc, and I simply was pointing out that there was a very very simple solution to this problem, do not fly DL. This is not brain surgery, what positive will come from this? As a former DL employee myself I can tell you that no matter what kind of product that you have you still will never please everyone. The bottom line is that DL has very loyal pax who have been around for years, enjoy the service, etc, and that ain't going to change due to a few that are not pleased.

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc. I merely pointed out that if he was so pleased with JB then that would be the route that he should take...


DL pilots set the bar back in 2000 with regards to pilot pay and even with the cuts they will end up taking they will still be the highest paid in the industry, sorry if that p!sses some off....



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[Whirlwind]

There is a simple truth that has been overlooked by all but a few...

American Airlines charges $129 to fly from New York to Los Angeles. How the heck can you make any money selling tickets on a Boeing 757 for that price?

Maybe that price made sense 15 years ago, but in 2004???

Lets look at a few numbers... The plane has about 200 seats, lets say they fill 70% of them. It also has 8 first class seats, 4 of which have paying pax at $464 each way.

That is a total of $19916 in income. Anyone have any idea what it costs to fly a 757 across the United States? I'm willing to bet that once you count in all the expenses, it is higher than $20K.

There, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with this business. The prices are not high enough to support the product being offered.

Thoughts?

 

[Whirlwind]

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc.

Eh? I hate to say it, but I disagree. I've flown both, and there really isn't any real difference, other than the fact that JetBlue has much newer airplanes.

Both get you from here to there, at about the same speed, on the same basic type of airplane (a metal tube with wings that goes ~mach 0.85)