A loyal Platinum Delta business pass speaks up

[JungleJetFO]

Mr. Jakes,
Thank you for your commentary. It has actually given me a little bit of the jolt I need to remember I am in a customer oriented profession. I sometimes forget that after a 12-14 hour work day in which, I too, have been sitting around waiting for weather to clear up or maintenance on the jet. I wish I had a little more influence on all the others in my profession to remember that too. I have flown with good and bad pilots and flight attendants in this area and it's amazing how one person can make a difference. I have flown flights that arrived 10 minutes early and all the passengers are mad because the flight attendant treated them like crap and I've been on flights in which we were an hour late but all the passengers just raved about the flight because the flight attendant treated them great.
You too can be an influence with letters to management and union leaders even if you think you haven't been heard. Hopefully, over time, positive changes will be made. Until then, you'll have to make your point by flying the airlines that are best for you. I've heard a lot of Jet Blue bashing from fellow pilots but to tell you the truth, we need these new airlines to keep from getting fat and ugly and arrogant. Maybe it's too late for some of the legacy airlines, I hope not.

regards

 

[350DRIVER]

I have been reading this board after stumbling across it. For reference sake, I live in Atlanta, have been Platinum for 10 years, and am in the 2 million mile club. I am a VP of sales for a 3.6 billion dollar company.

wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS....

It isn't about the DL pilots....

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[:-)]

Calvin,

You are right about me becoming defensive. Writing is difficult sometimes, because the wrong emotion is sometimes read into a statement.

My apologies. I will wait until all read and or post to get more perspective.

Ben,

PS-I read the board for about 3 weeks.... But I can allways learn

No apology necessary. Now that we've gotten to this point, I agree with you that we all need to be courteous. If I was first Lady, I think I'd make courtesy my "issue". I'm not going to be first, or a lady , anytime soon, but they always have a pet issue so it seems like a good illustration.

If you want to experience discourteous agents, try being an offline jumpseater. To be fair, I can't name a specific airline, but there are some witch's out there. BTW, the pilots here know this, but an offline jumpseater has no rights of travel. We beg for a ride. I, for one, never act as if I expect anything and am always polite to a fault (I want to get home, I don't mind groveling to get there), however I sometimes receive worse treatment than would a stray dog. The fact that such an employee continues to maintain his/her employment astounds me.

Please continue posting. and don't take anything personal.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"wow, would you like a cookie?. I can think of quite a few friends that can easily top that. For everyone of the likes of you that may not be pleased, guess what? There many many more that are very pleased with the service that DL provides on a daily basis. You are not pleased? then do not fly on them anymore, saying you don't have a choice is BS...."



Nice......and proved his point quite well I might add.........

 

[350DRIVER]

Point is that he is not satisfied, the very simple and elementary solution would be to not fly on them anymore, not brain surgery.

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keep in mind that you will normally only hear the complaint and negative stories, God forbid someone would actually post a good experience on them then they would get flamed.

 

[tscarecrow]

why?

350 -

There is an interesting, rational discussion taking place here (not a common thing on this BBS), and you choose to come along with that worthless tidbit of negativity. How disappointing.

Sorry to interject here folks, please carry on with this discussion. I'm finding it very enlightening.

 

[rvsm410]

The Most for the Least..getting what you pay for.

This is a great Heart and Soul thread, where almost all the parties involved have come to this table, the customer, the Pilots, Flight attendants, and a dispatcher, of course no management….they cant think outside the box to save there life anyway.

I agree with most all of what I have read on this thread, especially with "blueblood" about getting what we pay for. The problem is the "Wal-Mart" mentality of the passengers....they want all the services but don’t want to pay for them....But why is this?

When the auto gas prices go up, do we stop driving? No, we complain about it, and then go fill up the old SUV so we can continue with our plans and daily life. Did you know that a Gallon on 87 in Britian costs $5.69! They still drive.


Same goes for much in our lives, food, the cost of housing, rent or buying, insurance etc etc..we still pay the higher prices...it’s just what things cost now. Somehow the airlines have been excluded from this Normal economic reality ever since deregulation...The consumer has developed a "garage sale mentality" and will always demand lower prices if the situation allows it, our industry has allowed it to happen to itself and now it is imploding because the prices have NOT kept up with inflation like everything else has…..


Does anyone really think todays LLC fares are going to be the same in 10 years when their labor rates match and exceed todays mainline rates??? Cost of aircraft go up, Of course not....this will happen all over agin in 10 years, except it will be aimed at todays LCC's then.


So today, the classic management response thus far is to cut labor costs, cut services, get smaller, reorganize routes, and schedules etc…..the only thing we have not done is tell the American public, its going to cost more in the future to fly, and it is not coming back down….That's it!

If you want to enjoy a pleasant flight, get service, travel 6 mile a minute and and avoid that 4 day drive, it has to be worth paying for.


People are already tired of the 50-70 seat sardine cans…..They have there place to serve.

People are tried of the cattle car routine with no assigned seating, long lines.

People really do like to have nice services, and miss them, this will get worse.

People are tired of the TSA at airports, but they are getting over it and just doing it! I hope this will get better.


The LCC’s can’t fly everyone ( they account for 27% of all passengers) if the Majors were to just stop flying for a week or more in support of each others efforts to raise prices to make a profit maybe the industry would get some attention. Could you imagine the lines at the SWA counters. They could not handle it. The passengers would be really pissed off at everyone! But we would get their attention.

Yeap I’m talking about a monopoly on flying, of course its illegal, the government would stop it, but what is the government going to do if ALL the MAJORS went belly up? The results are the same but the companies are GONE.


Sure people will flock to the LCC’s for at first, they will drive, and some large layoffs would occur at mainline while jets are parked….it’s going to be a shock to the system, but they will get over it….and we will better for it I the LONG run. Something BIG has to happen to get out of this cycle of doom and gloom….


I think it’s time for a form of price regulation by the government; After all isn't the ATSB nothing more than a subsidy anyway. The public will get over it and time heals all.


And Speaking of a Wal-Mart mentality, those aviation professionals out here willing to work for what seems any amount of money just to wear a uniform or cut a flight release, well you are doing the same thing the passengers are doing to the airlines, allowing yourself to be bought CHEAP. Then we have the gall to complain about it later?

I for one have interviewed with many regional carriers, offered jobs and turned them down because I will not work for the peanuts they want to pay. As a former Military aircraft commander the responsibilities of a pilot are enormous, we all know this to be so, however, after loosing my medical retiring and going into dispatch, the responsibilities are equally as challenging but different in that we are not sitting in the pointy end of the can, never the less we may be the only one at that dredded NTSB review answering for our flight with our butts on the line. We should be compensated according to our level of responsibility just as a pilot should.

I think it’s shameful to pay dispatchers and pilots $17K to $25K a year with all they are in control of, I feel some of the unions are a great contributing factor to this syndrome along with the companies attitude towards pay, it needs to be broke! Regional Jobs are the only jobs most will ever have, pay them....

Sure you say its easy for me to say, I’m drawing retirement pay….will all the more reason that I “could” accept minimal pay to dispatch for the “love of it” but I am not going to sell myself down the river for the “love of Aviation” even if I never release another flight. I personally believe more folks should do the same, Bring it to the attention of managers and unions, it will take time. Dry up the new hire supply and see what would happen to starting pay. But this is just my opinion for which I stand true.



Col. Bill Williamson USAF (ret)

 

[350DRIVER]

scarecrow,

interesting discussion? OK.......the original poster was displeased with DL, product, service, etc, and I simply was pointing out that there was a very very simple solution to this problem, do not fly DL. This is not brain surgery, what positive will come from this? As a former DL employee myself I can tell you that no matter what kind of product that you have you still will never please everyone. The bottom line is that DL has very loyal pax who have been around for years, enjoy the service, etc, and that ain't going to change due to a few that are not pleased.

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc. I merely pointed out that if he was so pleased with JB then that would be the route that he should take...


DL pilots set the bar back in 2000 with regards to pilot pay and even with the cuts they will end up taking they will still be the highest paid in the industry, sorry if that p!sses some off....



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[Whirlwind]

There is a simple truth that has been overlooked by all but a few...

American Airlines charges $129 to fly from New York to Los Angeles. How the heck can you make any money selling tickets on a Boeing 757 for that price?

Maybe that price made sense 15 years ago, but in 2004???

Lets look at a few numbers... The plane has about 200 seats, lets say they fill 70% of them. It also has 8 first class seats, 4 of which have paying pax at $464 each way.

That is a total of $19916 in income. Anyone have any idea what it costs to fly a 757 across the United States? I'm willing to bet that once you count in all the expenses, it is higher than $20K.

There, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with this business. The prices are not high enough to support the product being offered.

Thoughts?

 

[Whirlwind]

Comparing DL to Jetblue is like comparing a Mercedes 500SL to a Cavalier, big difference in service, product, pay, etc.

Eh? I hate to say it, but I disagree. I've flown both, and there really isn't any real difference, other than the fact that JetBlue has much newer airplanes.

Both get you from here to there, at about the same speed, on the same basic type of airplane (a metal tube with wings that goes ~mach 0.85)

 

[350DRIVER]

I didn't know JetBlue had a worldwide travel route structure in place, large modern equipment for Intl. travel, worldwide travel partners, a popular "shuttle" service set up, superior first class cabin & treatment, BusinessElite, Crown Rooms that business men and women use daily,etc, etc. I guess you are right, there really isn't a "difference".......

I guess you learn something new daily... (a tad of sarcasm injected)

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[Whirlwind]

I didn't know JetBlue had a worldwide travel route structure in place

Wha... You mean they don't?!?



In any case, that has nothing to do with it. If I'm flying a domestic route served by both JetBlue and Delta, there really isn't a lick of difference between the two. The fact that Delta also flies overseas doesn't have anything to do with it.

superior first class cabin & treatment, BusinessElite, Crown Rooms that business men and women use daily,etc, etc.

What does any of that have to do with buying a coach ticket on either airline?

I guess you learn something new daily... (a tad of sarcasm injected)

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Sarcasm noted.

In any case, maybe Delta should stick to the profitable international routes and leave the unprofitable domestic stuff to the LCCs?

Just a thought...

 

[JetProp]

.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for your comments. Most of the issues raised have already been dealt with, but as an AirTran pilot, I do want to address your comments regarding AirTran.

First- I flew on AirTran as a passenger in 1999 and swore I would never fly on them again. Having said that, I noticed a complete turnaround in effect in 2001 when I bummed a free ride to ATL. New airplanes, happy flght crews- huge change. I went from "Never flying on these guys again" to sending in a resume after that experience.

I have been here now almost three years. I have never seen a flight canceled for lack of passengers. In fact, the EMO (Early Morning Originators) are THE most important flights to get in the air . . . . period. They DO NOT cancel for ridership. Maybe the unfortunate experiences you had were due to either DC9 or RJ aircraft, but the B717 is turning in a 99.6% completion factor. In any event, the DC9's are all gone, and the last RJ flights will end in July.

Having said that, I do have to say that I bum rides on Delta pretty frequently, and most Delta crews are very professional, both the F/A's and the pilots. The gate agents can run hot and cold. Some of them still have a sense of entitlement, but they, too, will get the message eventually. I am sure that the better ones would really wince at your comments, and I would anticipate that the customer service will improve once management decides to focus on that aspect of the operation. As someone else pointed out, it's hard for many poeple to smile when you are worried about your livelihood.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Hang in there . . . it's only transportation, try not to let it bother you while the kinks get sorted out. It still beats driving, most of the time!

Regards,

TW

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, Ive read every word of this thread and Id just like to tell you how I feel.

I will go out of my way to fly Delta because they have been good to me ever since I started flying them regularly in college. That was really the only way out of Daytona. I was actually 50/50 Delta DAB and TWA MCO but Delta has always been good.

They have good HUBS, good planes with the exception of the 737-200.
They have the best snack mix (KingNut) I love those things!!!
Friendly FA's, Friendly pilots, excellent schedules.

The RJ's....Ive flown Comair, Skywest, and ASA on many occasions.
Planes are quiet, usually push on time, don't have to wait 30 minutes to get off, and the bags come out quick cause they are only 50-70 pax on the plane.
They are small but they are pretty comfortable.
Im 6ft1 and an aisle seat is just fine.

Jetblue....never flown em, they don't cater to pax flying to smaller cities. Ive heard great things but the route structure is limited.
SWA.......I refuse to fly swa. for an 100 people standing an hour at the gate to fight there way to the seat they want. And any airline that has a reality show can't be taken serious. I do appreciate the humor of the airline but the airline industry has to be serious these days.
IndependenceAir.....You wont exist in 3 years. Good luck in Dullus when SWA owns BWI just up the road.
United....You know, I don't have a credible reason for saying this, but I just don't like the airline. Im flying UAL in 3 weeks but that is because Its the most direct routing. I do like the DEN-SFO night flights when they use the 744 or the 777 though, nice and comfy. I think my distaste stems from a fellow controller who would take a bullet for UNITED, we always bring eachother articles in the paper bashing one anothers airlines. Mine of course is Delta.
----Who else can I rip on??
Mesa.....Need I even say anything?
America West....Im impressed, lately youve been a pleasure to fly. Didn't used to be that way.

Im done, no one cares!

 

[350DRIVER]

Lrjtcaptain,

You took the words right out of my mouth.... You will never see the DL faithful jump ship to SWA. Southwest has always catered to that "specific" class of passengers, just take a walk through the the SWA terminal at Hobby on any given friday. It was pretty comical way back in the day when I was employed as a DL agent and we got to witness first hand those goin the SWA way, I felt as if I was in Mexico and in a minority.

"Class" can not be bought at a discount fare nor will it be seen by those strapped for money.

Two completely different business platforms and animals here.

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[Whirlwind]

Lrjtcaptain,

You took the words right out of my mouth.... You will never see the DL faithful jump ship to SWA.

350, I agree, there will always be a few people who are totally loyal to any airline. The $64 question is, are there enough of them?

Delta is an airline with a proud history. It will, however, become history if they don't start putting black ink on the bottom line. For what it is worth, that is true of all the other majors as well.

Southwest has always catered to that "specific" class of passengers, just take a walk through the the SWA terminal at Hobby on any given friday.

In that respect, we agree. SouthWest is the Wal-Mart of the skies...

For what it is worth, Wal-Mart is one of the largest corportations on Earth. It's hard to argue with success.

"Class" can not be bought at a discount fare nor will it be seen by those strapped for money.

Two completely different business platforms and animals here.

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Again, agreed... So if Delta wants to compete on price with SWA, then they need to behave like SWA. Otherwise, ditch the cheap tickets, bring back the superior service they had in the past, and become a high-class airline again.

I suspect the real problem the big legacy airlines have is they try to be all things to all people.

Fly Safe!

 

[Axel]

Southwest has always catered to that "specific" class of passengers...

True, but now with all the carriers attempting to staunch the hemmorage by cutting their fares to the bone to fill the seats and cutting service to the bone to reduce costs, a certain level of overlap has occurred. A blurring of the line, if you will.

All the carriers are charging Greyhound Bus fares and all are getting Greyhound Bus passengers. The so-called legacy carriers are having trouble with this at least partially due to the fact that SW Airlines is GOOD at it because it is what they have always done and there is a cost structure and level of service IN PLACE, and to which their regular customers are accustomed, that has allowed them to be profitable while all the big players are bleeding out.

Furthermore, people like our thread starter became used to a certain level of service which no longer exists on their airline of choice. The service level is down to a Coke and some pretzels on a packed plane in a seat between the crying baby and the guy who needs to bathe and brush his teeth; the way SW has always been. The change is what is doing the damage. The Legacy carriers are attempting to emulate the cost structure of SW and the reduction in service ticks off the pax who remember when flying was nice.

It is unfortunate, but not surprising that the pax do not make the connection between the cheap ticket and the low standard when they long for the way things used to be.

Welcome to the cattle car; courtesy of consumer pricing pressure.

 

[350DRIVER]

Whirlwind,

I do not think that DL is in as much financial trouble as the media and other outlets are leading people to believe. Will the pilots end up taking pay cuts? Most definitely but they will not do so and they are in no rush to do so until all the books have been reviewed which they are in the process of doing now. DL pilots did not work their @sses off to set the bar this high only to give it all away without some sort of a fight. Even with the 30% pay cuts they will still remain the highest paid pilots in the industry but they are in no rush to give it all back which so many would like to see happen out of greed, envy, etc, they have fought too hard for where they are present day. Don't get me wrong, Delta is in trouble but I don't think they are nearly as close to BK as most would tend to believe. The problem goes much deeper than the pilots, even with the cuts Delta will still be loosing money so this obviously is not the solution.

In any case, maybe Delta should stick to the profitable international routes and leave the unprofitable domestic stuff to the LCCs?

One of the main problems with the DL domestic route structure present day is the outsourcing of mainline routes/equipment. If you take a look back in the not so distant past, some of Delta's most profitable routes and cities served, werre by way of the 37's, 57's, and 88's that are now unfortunately being flown by RJ's which must stop and come to an abrupt end if Delta is to get back to where they were when all was well in "Delta Land". The profitable routes must be flown by Delta equipment and Delta pilots, bottom line... I am sure you will see a shift of the sort happening in the very near future since Grinney was never a fan of the RJ's to begin with. Bus. 101. would illustrate that giving away routes/flying to others really isn't going to do anything for you, especially when you were selling out the planes on the same routes that were flown by the larger mainline equipment. ASA/Comair/CHQ are doing great, wonderful, but it surely is not helping DL out at all so expect a change here relatively soon.... This "shift" must occur sooner than later or it is only going to get worse.. Good news is the 1060 are on there way back from off the streets and hopefully this is the first step of many to getting their flying back to where it needs to be, mainline....

350, I agree, there will always be a few people who are totally loyal to any airline. The $64 question is, are there enough of them?

I think Delta has many many loyal and faithful passengers that would never jump ship regardless of how much they can save by heading over to the "greyhound" of the sky. If you want "class" and top notch service then you fly Delta, if you want to join a cattle heard, save money, eat peanuts, and make five stops to get to where you want to go to then SWA would be more than happy to take your money. This is like comparing the Mercedes to a Cavalier, which one would you rather have if money is no object? I know I would much prefer the better product and not the cheaper no frills car. I don't think that you are going to see DL going anywhere anytime soon, too many people enjoy them, the product, and the good service that they provide.

In that respect, we agree. SouthWest is the Wal-Mart of the skies...

Exactly... Enough of those people to always make SWA profitable, I fortunately am not one of them.. I flew on them one time and that was enough to last a lifetime. Millions have the same mindset so take your pick....

Again, agreed... So if Delta wants to compete on price with SWA, then they need to behave like SWA. Otherwise, ditch the cheap tickets, bring back the superior service they had in the past, and become a high-class airline again.

I disagree in the sense that these are two completely different animals and in no way will DL swoop to the level of SWA, they have too much pride and class as a company to do so. I think Delta will refine it's product, get their flying back, improve on different areas, cut costs, etc, and once again be back to doing what made them so successful in the first place. They have a superior product but I truly believe that when they started to match fares and routes, etc, that is what got them into trouble, agreed. They need to stick to doing what they did so well... The boss is no moron and I am sure he has a plan that is going to work... I would in no way count DL out just quite yet. I do think they can make it happen but I also do agree with you that they must ditch this direct competition with the SWA's of the industry.

I suspect the real problem the big legacy airlines have is they try to be all things to all people.

You have many more people in the "lower classes" that have no options, they go with the cheapest fares since that is all they can afford and for that reason SWA will always remain profitable no matter how south this industry goes...


I can only wish the entire DL group the best and I am pretty confident that all is going to work out in the best interest of this great company.

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[English]

I think Delta has many many loyal and faithful passengers that would never jump ship regardless of how much they can save by heading over to the "greyhound" of the sky. If you want "class" and top notch service then you fly Delta, if you want to join a cattle heard, save money, eat peanuts, and make five stops to get to where you want to go to then SWA would be more than happy to take your money. This is like comparing the Mercedes to a Cavalier, which one would you rather have if money is no object? I know I would much prefer the better product and not the cheaper no frills car. I don't think that you are going to see DL going anywhere anytime soon, too many people enjoy them, the product, and the good service that they provide.



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I think the point you are missing is that the loyal and faithful passengers ARE jumping ship because the quality of the product has deteriorated. Delta is no longer comparable to the Mercedes you reference in your post.