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A little pro-ALPA Koolaid for ya

buscap

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Please people!!

Let's stop blowing smoke up our respective poop shoots. Each of us are employees of seperate companies; companies which compete against against one another, quite often under the same quasi brand, with Delta Connection being an extreme and obvious example.

We are all fighting for our piece of whatever pie is out there, with the presently lame hope of getting on with an airline which pays more and perhaps has a better quality of life. It's that simple. There really is no such thing as koom-by-ya and whatever.

The only thing that matters in the end is that sometimes the undercutting and concessionary contracts are just plain stupid. It's not that any of us are being bad people and stabbing our fellow pilots in the back, but jeexe-almighty, we sure are being stupid.

Helping the company gobble up flying by working for less, may seem smart at the time, but the next thing ya know, you're wondering how it's all gonna shake out with some other pilot group's seniority list.

And we all know how ALPA and the Major MECs have contributed to this stupid mess. Our very existence should not have been allowed in the first place. But uneducated brick-heads like me do need a half-butted decent place to work, so thank you baby jesus for those shortsighted guys at Delta mainline twenty years ago!!!!

Now, with all that being said and ALPA's general depravity being established, I would like to submit that one big union, ALPA in this case, is still the last hope we have to effect positive change within our profession. From safety to general professional pilot advocacy, there is simply no alternative.

But, please let's stop the talk about brotherhood and how we shouldn't be stabbing each other in the back. This is a business!!!!

Rant complete.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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If the DAL guys were not short sighted you might be a DAL pilot instead of a Delta Connection pilot...... now the question is..... which would be prefered?














(it is much more complicated though....... :) )
 

JoeMerchant

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If the DAL guys were not short sighted you might be a DAL pilot instead of a Delta Connection pilot...... now the question is..... which would be prefered?

...and if wishes were horses...beggars would ride....

What should have happened is water under the bridge...what is done is done. The question now is how do you deal with the various interests...Not everyone wants to be a Delta pilot...Not everyone wants to start over again at the bottom...You can either come up with a mutual solution that benefits ALL interests...or we can continue to operate as separate interests....

What would have been preferred and what is now preferred are two separate things....
 

Cobraair75drvr

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Joey,

What exactly do you think would be fair? Doh, relative sen, staple with fences? Do tell.




...and if wishes were horses...beggars would ride....

What should have happened is water under the bridge...what is done is done. The question now is how do you deal with the various interests...Not everyone wants to be a Delta pilot...Not everyone wants to start over again at the bottom...You can either come up with a mutual solution that benefits ALL interests...or we can continue to operate as separate interests....

What would have been preferred and what is now preferred are two separate things....
 

WayBack

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ALPA is the biggest problem in the industry.
They shouldn't be representing the regionals and majors.
They also should operate like a real union.....pay across the board for each airframe. Instead, ALPA helps the airlines whipsaw it's own pilots.
Also, at any other job in this country, when someone changes companies your pay can be negotiated. Instead, we go back to first year pay.
ALPA is like UAL and AA management. No matter how hard you try, you can't fix it. You just have to throw the whole thing out and start over from scratch.
The USAir pilots did, when will the rest of the airline pilots nut up and do the same?
 

JoeMerchant

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Joey,

What exactly do you think would be fair? Doh, relative sen, staple with fences? Do tell.

Fair would be a "double staple"...If I go to the bottom of a mainline piece of equipment, then a mainline pilot needs to go to the bottom of the SJ list. What isn't fair is a 2 year mainline pilot coming in at the top here, while a 25 year DCI pilot would go to the bottom there...How is that even remotely fair? You are more than welcome to advance that position, but I would then counter it with DOH....It all depends on what your side is looking for as to what I would want our side to ask for...If your side is reasonable, I can be reasonable...If you are going to go for the gold, then so will I...Clear as mud?
 

ACL65PILOT

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Joe,
as it pertains to EV and OH, the double staple sounds like what you are going to get.

The way I see it, that is a win win for DCI. Staple to this list and your career expectations become far greater than they are today. If I staple to the bottom of your list, I get a job with no expectations.
 

JumpersAway

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Honestly, it doesn't matter to me- take all the DCI carriers, integrate them on a DOH list, and staple that list to the bottom of DAL. If something happens, I don't care, I'll go and drive a fork lift around a liquor warehouse for a bit til I get my "Report for MD-88 Training" letter. However, if a staple is what is in order, there should be no barriers to entry between the Regional carriers and Mainline. Simply weed out the non hackers in training/checkrides.
 

GogglesPisano

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What isn't fair is a 2 year mainline pilot coming in at the top here, while a 25 year DCI pilot would go to the bottom there...How is that even remotely fair?


Because, Joe, there is virtually no comparison between the two jobs. The pay and QOL are simply on a different level. I spent 6 years at ACA, 2 at World and 2 (so far at DL) and I can tell you this is a whole other ballgame. Every section of the contract (with the possible exception of sick time reserve utilization) is far superior at mainline.

If you think there is a comparison survey your fellow pilots and ask how many built time at Delta with the objective of applying to ASA.
 

N2264J

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Because, Joe, there is virtually no comparison between the two jobs...If you think there is a comparison survey your fellow pilots and ask how many built time at Delta with the objective of applying to ASA.

Totally irrelevant. We're either all equal in the eyes of the union or we're not. Perceiving one's self at a different station of union privilege because of where you work is what's killing ALPA.

The double staple is absolutely fair. For purposes of bidding Delta equipment, ASA goes to the bottom of the list. For purposes of bidding ASA equipment, Delta goes to the bottom of the list. Two seniority numbers for equipment bidding purposes. You don't even have to combine the contracts or the companies. No bumping. Relative seniority is honored in good times and bad.
 
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CFI2766

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Joe,
as it pertains to EV and OH, the double staple sounds like what you are going to get.

The way I see it, that is a win win for DCI. Staple to this list and your career expectations become far greater than they are today. If I staple to the bottom of your list, I get a job with no expectations.


Know something on this we don't, ACL?

+1 for Joe's idea. Fair all the way around.

If a Delta guy believes this to be not fair, then why shouldn't a DCI guy argue the converse: DCI guy goes to the top of the Delta list and the Delta guy goes to the bottom of the DCI list, in the event of movement.

FWIW it's worth, it would be far better to get this figured out before the next boom time, which is probably just around the corner (12-18 months out....)
 

buscap

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Well, none of this was my even close to my freaki'n point.

Thanks for the thread-jack guys!!!!

But since we're on the point, put me in for making the best I can here at the B-teams!!

Like Judge Smells said, "The world needs ditch diggers too."
 

GogglesPisano

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Totally irrelevant. We're either all equal in the eyes of the union or we're not. Perceiving one's self at a different station of union privilege because of where you work is what's killing ALPA.

Another reason for Delta pilots to pull out and go inhouse. We owe it to ourselves to represent Delta pilots, not regional pilots. The conflict of interest will get more apparent as regional pilots comprise an increasingly powerful and vocal part of ALPA national.
 

Cobraair75drvr

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As a DAL N guy I never quite understood the animosity btw DAL and its subs. But now I am getting up to speed quickly. These ********************ing yahoos act like they are negotiating from a posistion of power. It is our scope that ALLOWS them to have a job. We should not be negotiating anything other than a staple with flow down IN SENIORITY or nothing. Any sub that wants to deal gets on board and those that don't, TFB. Actually the corporation would be better off shifting the flying to one of the more junior feeders(such as compass) which would, at least short term save a ton of money. I am sure other than one or two the compass pilots would be greatful for the lottory ticket we just offered up. Guys like Joe and the N# dip******************** are part of the group that overplayed their perceived strength with their cute little rjdc band of homos. Guess they did not learn their lesson. I feel the vocal minority at cmr/asa are going to screw things up again for the majority that would love to be stapled to the bottom of a company with 600+ retirements per year for the next 25 yrs vs. trying to interview against former military, other commuters, corporates etc..The mid to junior asa/cmr pilots need to rein the guys in quick. Possibly a blanket party.


Another reason for Delta pilots to pull out and go inhouse. We owe it to ourselves to represent Delta pilots, not regional pilots. The conflict of interest will get more apparent as regional pilots comprise an increasingly powerful and vocal part of ALPA national.
 

N2264J

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Another reason for Delta pilots to pull out and go inhouse.

Thank you for making my point.

Just talking about a level playing field makes them want to leave the "union." Delta pilots did that at the Executive Council level too. I suspect they're still doing it. If the largest pilot group in ALPA should decertify, it would be a huge financial blow to what's left of this union and ALPA won't let that happen.

So the erosion of the union and the profession continues.
 
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buscap

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While this certainly was not the intended direction of this thread, I would submit that the views of the Delta pilots expressed on this board lead me to believe they can just go F themselves.

Jeeze-and Louise guys!! We are flying under scope you guys wanted or at least were willing to trade for. If you hadn't crapped this big fat turd, there would be more jobs at your freakin-armpit of a three-breasted-idiot-suit-flying club for us. We wouldn't have been stuck here in the first place if you morons hadn't allowed-no let's call it demanded- our existence.

But nooooooo!!!!! I can't just hear how it went!!!! You wanted to make darn tooti'n sure there were 'real' narrow body jobs for your freakin Navy/Marine buddies.

Wouldn't want those pooh-pooh ex-military types to be forced to fly a wittle prop plane!!! And Oh my not even those wittle jets are good enough for our buddies!!

So let's just let the company scope out that flying so we don't have to get our gold buttons soiled in those tiny wittle cockpits!!!! They'll never fly very many of them anyway!!!!


You guys made the monster and now you're mad because he killed the blind guy and tore off his brides head.

FU

But I'm not bitter!!!!
 

79%N1

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. We should not be negotiating anything other than a staple with flow down IN SENIORITY or nothing. Any sub that wants to deal gets on board and those that don't, TFB. Actually the corporation would be better off shifting the flying to one of the more junior feeders(such as compass) which would, at least short term save a ton of money. I am sure other than one or two the compass pilots would be greatful for the lottory ticket we just offered up. Guys like Joe and the N# dip******************** are part of the group that overplayed their perceived strength with their cute little rjdc band of homos.

Not saying you are wrong in your theory or opinion.....but, what you state shows clearly why ALPA is NOT a union of Airline Pilots, in any way, shape or form. That is not how a union works, where some are above others in the union. You may say TFB to that, but my point is just that. ALPA is not a union and certainly doesn't represent the interests of everybody that pays the same percentage in dues.

[/QUOTE].The mid to junior asa/cmr pilots need to rein the guys in quick. Possibly a blanket party.[/QUOTE]

This would be illegal, and the offenders would be charged with assault and battery. :laugh:
 

buscap

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As a DAL N guy I never quite understood the animosity btw DAL and its subs. But now I am getting up to speed quickly. These ********************ing yahoos act like they are negotiating from a posistion of power. It is our scope that ALLOWS them to have a job. We should not be negotiating anything other than a staple with flow down IN SENIORITY or nothing. Any sub that wants to deal gets on board and those that don't, TFB. Actually the corporation would be better off shifting the flying to one of the more junior feeders(such as compass) which would, at least short term save a ton of money. I am sure other than one or two the compass pilots would be greatful for the lottory ticket we just offered up. Guys like Joe and the N# dip******************** are part of the group that overplayed their perceived strength with their cute little rjdc band of homos. Guess they did not learn their lesson. I feel the vocal minority at cmr/asa are going to screw things up again for the majority that would love to be stapled to the bottom of a company with 600+ retirements per year for the next 25 yrs vs. trying to interview against former military, other commuters, corporates etc..The mid to junior asa/cmr pilots need to rein the guys in quick. Possibly a blanket party.

And you can be the first one to pucker up and start making sink-drain noises!!!

Lumping ASA in with Comair!!?? After we made darn sure you guys got the best brake we could give during your furlough?? You compare us to Comair??

Pack it buddy!! Pack it, you worthless ungrateful moron!!
 

ACL65PILOT

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The other DCI carriers will just have mainline go on top of them, but these two will have DAL guys go to the bottom of the list to sign off on this. makes me sick as it is one more way to sell off the delta job. Even you Joe thought about coming here last time. Do Not even say you did not think about it!

IMHO, this is going to be the deal that everyone appears to be working for, right up to the point you elect Lee in to Prater's job and then this deal and any notion of a bilateral flow will disappear. There is no way DAL will give away the keys to their hiring, no matter who says it can happen.
superboy triyng to get it done. I say help get Lee in to Pratter's job.
 
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