A little pro-ALPA Koolaid for ya

[Cobraair75drvr]

It is real simple. Any carrier/group of pilots who want to fly Dal code agree to this or they lose their code and any aircraft that Dal holds the leases on. Shift those aircraft to the ones who want to play and the others to the desert. There are plenty of 50 seaters that need to be removed anyway.

The other DCI carriers will just have mainline go on top of them, but these two will have DAL guys go to the bottom of the list to sign off on this. makes me sick as it is one more way to sell off the delta job. Even you Joe thought about coming here last time. Do Not even say you did not think about it!

IMHO, this is going to be the deal that everyone appears to be working for, right up to the point you elect Lee in to Prater's job and then this deal and any notion of a bilateral flow will disappear. There is no way DAL will give away the keys to their hiring, no matter who says it can happen.
superboy triyng to get it done. I say help get Lee in to Pratter's job.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

While this certainly was not the intended direction of this thread, I would submit that the views of the Delta pilots expressed on this board lead me to believe they can just go F themselves.

Jeeze-and Louise guys!! We are flying under scope you guys wanted or at least were willing to trade for. If you hadn't crapped this big fat turd, there would be more jobs at your freakin-armpit of a three-breasted-idiot-suit-flying club for us. We wouldn't have been stuck here in the first place if you morons hadn't allowed-no let's call it demanded- our existence.
Does not matter if we traded for something. Your flying is an exception to OUR contract, not the other way around.
But nooooooo!!!!! I can't just hear how it went!!!! You wanted to make darn tooti'n sure there were 'real' narrow body jobs for your freakin Navy/Marine buddies.
I former commuter pilot and would have flogged my mule on main street for a staple when I was there.
Wouldn't want those pooh-pooh ex-military types to be forced to fly a wittle prop plane!!! And Oh my not even those wittle jets are good enough for our buddies!!
I would agree with you here if you were comparing apples to apples. But lets be real here. You know and I know a former military pilot is light years ahead of the typical commuter new hire fresh out of the puppy mill.
So let's just let the company scope out that flying so we don't have to get our gold buttons soiled in those tiny wittle cockpits!!!! They'll never fly very many of them anyway!!!!

You guys made the monster and now you're mad because he killed the blind guy and tore off his brides head.

FU
FU2
But I'm not bitter!!!!

You sure are.

 

[Raskal]

What's even more amusing is that either pilot group thinks it is negotiating from a position of power. That's what is ********************ing hysterical. Both the DCI pilots and the DAL pilots have all the leverage of a wet napkin-just like what is left of our "union". We are all reduced to making strong statements followed by a speech as to why we ended up supporting the very position we were against last week because it was "inevitable".

Management has the power, as has been displayed over and over again, and couldn't give a flying ******************** at a rolling doughnut on what the pilot's opinions are with regards to hiring. Pilots don't hire. Pilots don't negotiate contracts for feed. Pilots don't control flying with wholly-owned's or with the other 11 or 22 regionals that fly for DAL (whatever it is this week). Pilots control nothing and can't even agree on that without at least a 72 posts on FI, a resolution and 11 motions.

 

[buscap]

Well nanner nanner boo boo!!!

 

[InTransit]

Management lives for threads like this.

 

[buscap]

Yeah......

It started as a reality check about how.......

never freakin mind

Those guys drug me down with them!!! It's not my fault!!!

I swear I'm going to put me on my ignore list..........................

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not saying you are wrong in your theory or opinion.....but, what you state shows clearly why ALPA is NOT a union of Airline Pilots, in any way, shape or form. That is not how a union works, where some are above others in the union. You may say TFB to that, but my point is just that. ALPA is not a union and certainly doesn't represent the interests of everybody that pays the same percentage in dues.

That is correct sir.

A former ALPA National officer who was forced to leave ALPA addressed the USAPA crowd....

He stated that ALPA has been a federation.... perhaps like the 50 states. The decision for ALPA to function as a loose conglomerate of individual groups has been made and continues to be made...

But keep in mind... when the economy is growing... everyone seems to love the "federation" as we use each others industry leading contracts to get one up... Did anyone complain about UAL2000 and the ability for D-ALPA to get DAL2001?

So what happens during the anti-growth times? Say 9/11/2001 till 2007? [Or maybe it is ongoing....] Suddenly everyone wants ALPA to be a union that battens down the hatches, circles the wagons (with everyone within the circle....of course...) and makes sure that no one gets unfairly harmed...


Logic says we can't have it both ways... can we?


So right now, we want a union. ALPA to be a real union..... and protect all those who pay dues... DCI guys, Aloha, ATA, TWA, RJDC, etc...

But what happens when the economy grows again... do we switch back to the 'federation'? Can we? Have we considered what it would be like to be a union during the growth period? Would those who had economic growth at their companies be allowed to negotiate to the best of their ability and allow themselves a different economic gain (more) than others who could not? Would that be a union? Is a union where we ALL rise and fall together?

Would XYZ airline be content with being held back because they couldn't achieve more because fellow union brothers and sisters at ABC airline would be not included?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,
as it pertains to EV and OH, the double staple sounds like what you are going to get.

The way I see it, that is a win win for DCI. Staple to this list and your career expectations become far greater than they are today. If I staple to the bottom of your list, I get a job with no expectations.

Why would you be concerned where a Delta pilot comes onto the ASA or CMR list? According to YOU....Delta is going to hire thousands of pilots in the future and isn't going to furlough...What difference does it make then as to where they would go on our list?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because, Joe, there is virtually no comparison between the two jobs. The pay and QOL are simply on a different level. I spent 6 years at ACA, 2 at World and 2 (so far at DL) and I can tell you this is a whole other ballgame. Every section of the contract (with the possible exception of sick time reserve utilization) is far superior at mainline.

If you think there is a comparison survey your fellow pilots and ask how many built time at Delta with the objective of applying to ASA.

There is "no comparison between the two jobs" eh? In that case, you got it really good then compared to me.....I'm starting vacation now...Second time I've turned 1 week into 5 weeks...In Sept., I'm going to work 6 days and still get a 75 hour guarantee.

You've been "chasing the dream"....I gave up and set roots here...We each made choices...I'm happy with mine and you're happy with yours...I don't want to work for Delta as hard as that is for you to understand....Why do you want to come here and bump me down if things don't work out for you?

The problem is, some of you think everyone had a deep desire to wear the double breasted coat...That simply isn't true.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Another reason for Delta pilots to pull out and go inhouse. We owe it to ourselves to represent Delta pilots, not regional pilots. The conflict of interest will get more apparent as regional pilots comprise an increasingly powerful and vocal part of ALPA national.

Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out....

 

[JoeMerchant]

As a DAL N guy I never quite understood the animosity btw DAL and its subs. But now I am getting up to speed quickly. These ********************ing yahoos act like they are negotiating from a posistion of power. It is our scope that ALLOWS them to have a job.

Then quit whining and take it back...You sold it, and it will cost more than you have to try and get it back...The simple fact is, none of have much power anymore because ALPA and the mainline pilots screwed scope up so bad....The Republic model is the next step and these "regionals" will end up becoming your competition.

By the way, you said you "allowed" it...Why did you "allow" your job to be put out to bid to the lowest bidder? Not too smart if you ask me.....

We should not be negotiating anything other than a staple with flow down IN SENIORITY or nothing.

I'll take nothing then...peddle your snake oil somewhere else...

Actually the corporation would be better off shifting the flying to one of the more junior feeders(such as compass) which would, at least short term save a ton of money.

That's smart....lower the cost of operating these DC9 size aircraft and let me know how that helps you in your negotiations....Ya think it might just put some more downward pressure on your rates....just maybe? It's that kind of stupid thinking that is partially to blame for your current situation.

The mid to junior asa/cmr pilots need to rein the guys in quick. Possibly a blanket party.

Now that's funny....:laugh:

:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Even you Joe thought about coming here last time. Do Not even say you did not think about it!

I did not think about coming to Delta...I've never even filled out an application. Delta was never one of my "dreams"....I'll admit that ASA wasn't either....When I first got into the business, United and American were the two on my dream list...Thank God that never happened....

 

[buscap]

Okay, here goes again. This was the main point of my original post:

Now, with all that being said and ALPA's general depravity being established, I would like to submit that one big union, ALPA in this case, is still the last hope we have to effect positive change within our profession. From safety to general professional pilot advocacy, there is simply no alternative.

My point is we should all stop whining about back-stabbing and undercutting and bla blah blah. We're not going to get any level of seperate airline cooperation out of ALPA. That's it.

What we can get and should embrace is what ALPA can give us: A national advocacy organization for safety and the profession. Outside of that it's gonna be every group for themselves.

 

[PCL_128]

I swear, these DCI/DAL threads are always depressing. Can't you guys just get the f&^% along?!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I swear, these DCI/DAL threads are always depressing. Can't you guys just get the f&^% along?!

....you mean like SWA and Frontier?:laugh:

 

[buscap]

You sure are.

But nooooooo!!!!! I can't just hear how it went!!!! You wanted to make darn tooti'n sure there were 'real' narrow body jobs for your freakin Navy/Marine buddies.
I former commuter pilot and would have flogged my mule on main street for a staple when I was there.
Wouldn't want those pooh-pooh ex-military types to be forced to fly a wittle prop plane!!! And Oh my not even those wittle jets are good enough for our buddies!!
I would agree with you here if you were comparing apples to apples. But lets be real here. You know and I know a former military pilot is light years ahead of the typical commuter new hire fresh out of the puppy mill.


And by the way Cobradooosh, my point in all that is you idiots should have kept the flying in-house. Even if it meant your ex-military types would have to start out in props or wittle wittle jets. So now you've got us doing a really big part of the flying.

Like I said, you guys created us. So quit your whining!!!

 

[JumpersAway]

That is correct sir.

A former ALPA National officer who was forced to leave ALPA addressed the USAPA crowd....

He stated that ALPA has been a federation.... perhaps like the 50 states. The decision for ALPA to function as a loose conglomerate of individual groups has been made and continues to be made...

But keep in mind... when the economy is growing... everyone seems to love the "federation" as we use each others industry leading contracts to get one up... Did anyone complain about UAL2000 and the ability for D-ALPA to get DAL2001?

So what happens during the anti-growth times? Say 9/11/2001 till 2007? [Or maybe it is ongoing....] Suddenly everyone wants ALPA to be a union that battens down the hatches, circles the wagons (with everyone within the circle....of course...) and makes sure that no one gets unfairly harmed...


Logic says we can't have it both ways... can we?


So right now, we want a union. ALPA to be a real union..... and protect all those who pay dues... DCI guys, Aloha, ATA, TWA, RJDC, etc...

But what happens when the economy grows again... do we switch back to the 'federation'? Can we? Have we considered what it would be like to be a union during the growth period? Would those who had economic growth at their companies be allowed to negotiate to the best of their ability and allow themselves a different economic gain (more) than others who could not? Would that be a union? Is a union where we ALL rise and fall together?

Would XYZ airline be content with being held back because they couldn't achieve more because fellow union brothers and sisters at ABC airline would be not included?

Rez- we're pushing the ten year mark on those gains. Ever since, it's been a total collapse of our wages and our way of life. I'd have to argue, that given the longevity of the downward spiral, it may indeed be time to alter how we do business. As it comes down to our current way of doing business- DCI vs. Mainline, Dr. Phil would ask "And how's that workin' for ya?" To which, I'm inclined to reply- "NOT TOO GOOD".

As for working at ACA, World, and Delta.....Goggles, glad your contract is superior in every way to the feeders and regionals. However, that simply puts you in the lime light for making too much, and being too extravigantly compensated. Frankly, no matter what we make, or how little, it will always be too much in the eyes of management.

Cobra- what do you mean about a few bad apples messing up the lotto ticket at the regional level? Doesn't it make sense that the bulk of a pilot group should be polled/ represented in number and opinion?

Frankly, there's no way this ship is going to sail......a combined list would be a disaster for management. Effectively handing us a method, as pilots, to push for higher wages without a method (scope and outsourcing) to stop it. The Delta vs. DCI battle is simple cost control for Delta management. They aren't going to write this method off- it's too effective at keeping operating cost low. Regionals are a flat line for labor cost- if one spikes it gets chopped off at the knees and the flying sent somewhere else.......or another carrier is formed to suit the cost structure. Just look at Compass and Mid Atlantic and where they came from. Thinking that Delta pilots or DCI pilots are in the drivers seat is proposterous, and down right laughable. Management has been in the drivers seat for the last 8 years, and doesn't seem to be changing- especially with the "better than...." complexes that run rampant within the Delta/DCI group.

ACL- please elaborate on Moak and ALPA National. You were a little ambiguous in what you would expect to happen, or not happen, if elected as head of national........

 

[buscap]

If I were a moderator, I would ban me.

This post has turned more vial than Delta Tie!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Kind of weird to see this thread. Arguing seniority in a merger that will never happen is really pointless. Frankly, Joe's made the right call for Joe. ACL has made the right call for ACL. Both did well with the decisions they made.

Neither did better than the other, they did the best for themselves and their families. Both are successful.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The problem is, some of you think everyone had a deep desire to wear the double breasted coat...That simply isn't true.....

And yet you sued to get just the opposite!
Too funny Joe! Your lies never stop!