A little pro-ALPA Koolaid for ya

[JoeMerchant]

As a DAL N guy I never quite understood the animosity btw DAL and its subs. But now I am getting up to speed quickly. These ********************ing yahoos act like they are negotiating from a posistion of power. It is our scope that ALLOWS them to have a job.

Then quit whining and take it back...You sold it, and it will cost more than you have to try and get it back...The simple fact is, none of have much power anymore because ALPA and the mainline pilots screwed scope up so bad....The Republic model is the next step and these "regionals" will end up becoming your competition.

By the way, you said you "allowed" it...Why did you "allow" your job to be put out to bid to the lowest bidder? Not too smart if you ask me.....

We should not be negotiating anything other than a staple with flow down IN SENIORITY or nothing.

I'll take nothing then...peddle your snake oil somewhere else...

Actually the corporation would be better off shifting the flying to one of the more junior feeders(such as compass) which would, at least short term save a ton of money.

That's smart....lower the cost of operating these DC9 size aircraft and let me know how that helps you in your negotiations....Ya think it might just put some more downward pressure on your rates....just maybe? It's that kind of stupid thinking that is partially to blame for your current situation.

The mid to junior asa/cmr pilots need to rein the guys in quick. Possibly a blanket party.

Now that's funny....:laugh:

:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Even you Joe thought about coming here last time. Do Not even say you did not think about it!

I did not think about coming to Delta...I've never even filled out an application. Delta was never one of my "dreams"....I'll admit that ASA wasn't either....When I first got into the business, United and American were the two on my dream list...Thank God that never happened....

 

[buscap]

Okay, here goes again. This was the main point of my original post:

Now, with all that being said and ALPA's general depravity being established, I would like to submit that one big union, ALPA in this case, is still the last hope we have to effect positive change within our profession. From safety to general professional pilot advocacy, there is simply no alternative.

My point is we should all stop whining about back-stabbing and undercutting and bla blah blah. We're not going to get any level of seperate airline cooperation out of ALPA. That's it.

What we can get and should embrace is what ALPA can give us: A national advocacy organization for safety and the profession. Outside of that it's gonna be every group for themselves.

 

[PCL_128]

I swear, these DCI/DAL threads are always depressing. Can't you guys just get the f&^% along?!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I swear, these DCI/DAL threads are always depressing. Can't you guys just get the f&^% along?!

....you mean like SWA and Frontier?:laugh:

 

[buscap]

You sure are.

But nooooooo!!!!! I can't just hear how it went!!!! You wanted to make darn tooti'n sure there were 'real' narrow body jobs for your freakin Navy/Marine buddies.
I former commuter pilot and would have flogged my mule on main street for a staple when I was there.
Wouldn't want those pooh-pooh ex-military types to be forced to fly a wittle prop plane!!! And Oh my not even those wittle jets are good enough for our buddies!!
I would agree with you here if you were comparing apples to apples. But lets be real here. You know and I know a former military pilot is light years ahead of the typical commuter new hire fresh out of the puppy mill.


And by the way Cobradooosh, my point in all that is you idiots should have kept the flying in-house. Even if it meant your ex-military types would have to start out in props or wittle wittle jets. So now you've got us doing a really big part of the flying.

Like I said, you guys created us. So quit your whining!!!

 

[JumpersAway]

That is correct sir.

A former ALPA National officer who was forced to leave ALPA addressed the USAPA crowd....

He stated that ALPA has been a federation.... perhaps like the 50 states. The decision for ALPA to function as a loose conglomerate of individual groups has been made and continues to be made...

But keep in mind... when the economy is growing... everyone seems to love the "federation" as we use each others industry leading contracts to get one up... Did anyone complain about UAL2000 and the ability for D-ALPA to get DAL2001?

So what happens during the anti-growth times? Say 9/11/2001 till 2007? [Or maybe it is ongoing....] Suddenly everyone wants ALPA to be a union that battens down the hatches, circles the wagons (with everyone within the circle....of course...) and makes sure that no one gets unfairly harmed...


Logic says we can't have it both ways... can we?


So right now, we want a union. ALPA to be a real union..... and protect all those who pay dues... DCI guys, Aloha, ATA, TWA, RJDC, etc...

But what happens when the economy grows again... do we switch back to the 'federation'? Can we? Have we considered what it would be like to be a union during the growth period? Would those who had economic growth at their companies be allowed to negotiate to the best of their ability and allow themselves a different economic gain (more) than others who could not? Would that be a union? Is a union where we ALL rise and fall together?

Would XYZ airline be content with being held back because they couldn't achieve more because fellow union brothers and sisters at ABC airline would be not included?

Rez- we're pushing the ten year mark on those gains. Ever since, it's been a total collapse of our wages and our way of life. I'd have to argue, that given the longevity of the downward spiral, it may indeed be time to alter how we do business. As it comes down to our current way of doing business- DCI vs. Mainline, Dr. Phil would ask "And how's that workin' for ya?" To which, I'm inclined to reply- "NOT TOO GOOD".

As for working at ACA, World, and Delta.....Goggles, glad your contract is superior in every way to the feeders and regionals. However, that simply puts you in the lime light for making too much, and being too extravigantly compensated. Frankly, no matter what we make, or how little, it will always be too much in the eyes of management.

Cobra- what do you mean about a few bad apples messing up the lotto ticket at the regional level? Doesn't it make sense that the bulk of a pilot group should be polled/ represented in number and opinion?

Frankly, there's no way this ship is going to sail......a combined list would be a disaster for management. Effectively handing us a method, as pilots, to push for higher wages without a method (scope and outsourcing) to stop it. The Delta vs. DCI battle is simple cost control for Delta management. They aren't going to write this method off- it's too effective at keeping operating cost low. Regionals are a flat line for labor cost- if one spikes it gets chopped off at the knees and the flying sent somewhere else.......or another carrier is formed to suit the cost structure. Just look at Compass and Mid Atlantic and where they came from. Thinking that Delta pilots or DCI pilots are in the drivers seat is proposterous, and down right laughable. Management has been in the drivers seat for the last 8 years, and doesn't seem to be changing- especially with the "better than...." complexes that run rampant within the Delta/DCI group.

ACL- please elaborate on Moak and ALPA National. You were a little ambiguous in what you would expect to happen, or not happen, if elected as head of national........

 

[buscap]

If I were a moderator, I would ban me.

This post has turned more vial than Delta Tie!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Kind of weird to see this thread. Arguing seniority in a merger that will never happen is really pointless. Frankly, Joe's made the right call for Joe. ACL has made the right call for ACL. Both did well with the decisions they made.

Neither did better than the other, they did the best for themselves and their families. Both are successful.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The problem is, some of you think everyone had a deep desire to wear the double breasted coat...That simply isn't true.....

And yet you sued to get just the opposite!
Too funny Joe! Your lies never stop!

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

joey, joey, joey. You still don't get it.

then quit whining and take it back...you sold it, and it will cost more than you have to try and get it back...the simple fact is, none of have much power anymore because alpa and the mainline pilots screwed scope up so bad....the republic model is the next step and these "regionals" will end up becoming your competition.

By the way, you said you "allowed" it...why did you "allow" your job to be put out to bid to the lowest bidder? Not too smart if you ask me.....
we did not sell it, just loaned it out. You see, this flying still is an exception to our contract. You are just getting angry/nervous knowing that we are finally taking the loss of flying seriously. Loaning it out for our previous pay/workrules was not a bad trade. But since ch11 and the destruction of our contracts it makes sense to bring it back. Not saying we will, but you won't have any say in the matter. Other than fi.




i'll take nothing then...peddle your snake oil somewhere else...
again, you will not get a say in what you take/or not take.



that's smart....lower the cost of operating these dc9 size aircraft and let me know how that helps you in your negotiations....ya think it might just put some more downward pressure on your rates....just maybe? It's that kind of stupid thinking that is partially to blame for your current situation.
i am very content in my situation, for a nwa guy i did ok on the sli.



now that's funny....:laugh:

:beer:

 

[GogglesPisano]

There is "no comparison between the two jobs" eh? In that case, you got it really good then compared to me.....I'm starting vacation now...Second time I've turned 1 week into 5 weeks...In Sept., I'm going to work 6 days and still get a 75 hour guarantee.

That's good for you Joe. But I think you're in the minority. I'll ask the question again, How many of you comrades at ASA built time at Delta with the intention of "hiring on" at ASA?

You've been "chasing the dream"....I gave up and set roots here...We each made choices...I'm happy with mine and you're happy with yours...I don't want to work for Delta as hard as that is for you to understand....Why do you want to come here and bump me down if things don't work out for you?...

Flow-throughs always give regional pilots a choice. You can choose not to take part and thus remain protected from a DL pilot pushing you down in seniority. It was that way at Eagle and CoEx.

IMHO this is all conjecture, as I don't see a flow-through happening at all other than the current ones at Compass and Mesaba.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Kind of weird to see this thread. Arguing seniority in a merger that will never happen is really pointless. Frankly, Joe's made the right call for Joe. ACL has made the right call for ACL. Both did well with the decisions they made.

Neither did better than the other, they did the best for themselves and their families. Both are successful.

Now this is the most accurate post here...It's like the disclaimer on a car ad..."You're mileage may vary". Timing and luck have a lot to do with this industry. What works for one doesn't work for others. The only way to score your decision making is to look back, after you set the parking brake for the last time, and see how you did.

Fins is right in that this is simply FI entertainment...There won't be any single list at Delta....That ship sailed many years ago. There won't be anymore "flowthrough" agreements as they don't work for EITHER side. The only thing there will be is more threads on FI blaiming each other for this mess....

 

[JoeMerchant]

That's good for you Joe. But I think you're in the minority. I'll ask the question again, How many of you comrades at ASA built time at Delta with the intention of "hiring on" at ASA?

I admit that I am in the minority...However, a growing number of "regional" pilots have made the same decision to stay at the regionals. They didn't plan on it, however there hasn't been much hiring the past 10 years at the mainline and the difference between the two jobs has narrowed. I came to ASA with the "intention" of building time and going to United. Intentions are like flight plans...Sometimes you have to go to your alternate....The problem is you folks want to pencil in ASA at the last minute as an alternate and you want priority handling...Sorry, we told you to have a better alternate before you left, and you ignored us...If you need to come to this alternate, it won't be with priority.

Flow-throughs always give regional pilots a choice. You can choose not to take part and thus remain protected from a DL pilot pushing you down in seniority. It was that way at Eagle and CoEx.

Flowthroughs don't work...Never have. There is a reason the EGL and XJT flowthroughs don't exist anymore.

IMHO this is all conjecture, as I don't see a flow-through happening at all other than the current ones at Compass and Mesaba.

We agree on something.:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

joey, joey, joey. You still don't get it.

we did not sell it, just loaned it out. You see, this flying still is an exception to our contract. You are just getting angry/nervous knowing that we are finally taking the loss of flying seriously. Loaning it out for our previous pay/workrules was not a bad trade. But since ch11 and the destruction of our contracts it makes sense to bring it back. Not saying we will, but you won't have any say in the matter.

We have a say in what our bargaining agent, ALPA, does to us...There is a little legal issue of DFR and a certain settlement agreement you are forgeting about.

That being said, you will never buy this flying back because the cost would be too great...Even your MEC Chairman said that recently at a Compass presentation. You admitted that jobs were traded for pay and workrules....That was the dumbest thing you guys did....The cost to "buy" it back is more than you got in the first place...It's like Delta selling ASA for far less than they bought ASA for in the first place...

It isn't I who is getting nervous...I'm not at the bottom of a seniority list in a terrible economy....I'm not looking for a life boat...You are...

 

[N2264J]

You still don't get it...we did not sell it, just loaned it out.

Is that right?

I'll tell you what, ask for it back. Say "pretty please" if you want. Let us know how that works out and then we'll discuss who really doesn't "get it" both literally and figuratively.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe,
Those regional pilots opting to stay and make the regionals their career is what is killing this business model. You cost to much.
A flow will try to get the "dead wood" to move up so they can reset the seniority. It is a great cost savings measure, and is the only reason I can see DAL management going a long with that notion. (Money means more than control over hiring limits and qualifications)

I got one for you. I do not like this whole idea of a flow for many reasons. 1) It will reset the DCI costs and once again promote outsourcing, 2) Pilots that are on the DCI list from DAL are not subject to disciplinary action at the regional effecting their mainline employment rights, 3) In the event of a merger using the LCC arbitrated award those pilots on the regional list were stappled, totally effecting career expectations and 4) it is a poor substitute for recapturing fliying and keeps a B scale of the hands of DALPA.

Now you want DAL guys to the bottom of the list. I say, I do not care where I sit, as long as I make what I was making the day I walked of the DAL property. That means that as a year three or four DC-9/88 FO I would get paid 88 to 90.28 an hr to sit in you right seat. Now that sounds fine by me. Been there done that. Add to that, I continue to accrue longevity and my pay goes up per the DAL CBA. It is not about where you sit, I could care less if I am a CA or an FO for a temporary job.

Now, it response to why I care. I am in little fear of furlough. It has to do with the people below me and protecting their rights, income potential and career expectations. It is not all or mostly about me. It is about the group I am part of. I want what is best for the plug and what is best for numero uno in the list.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree Joe, this is a way to garner support for our MEC from the DCI pilots.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

[/COLOR]

We have a say in what our bargaining agent, ALPA, does to us...There is a little legal issue of DFR and a certain settlement agreement you are forgeting about.

Nobody's forgetting about it junior, you'll get the memo!

That being said, you will never buy this flying back because the cost would be too great...

Now that's funny! More lies joey? Too bad these FFD contracts are going to be shred, much like your lawsuit was. Delta's parking 100 more rj's. Where will ASA be when the music stops?

Even your MEC Chairman said that recently at a Compass presentation. You admitted that jobs were traded for pay and workrules....That was the dumbest thing you guys did....The cost to "buy" it back is more than you got in the first place...It's like Delta selling ASA for far less than they bought ASA for in the first place...

Nobody ever accused Delta management of being smart!

It isn't I who is getting nervous...I'm not at the bottom of a seniority list in a terrible economy....I'm not looking for a life boat...You are...

Yet your posts reek of desparation, or is that just the lifeboat of the rjdc?
BTW, why isn't it you and your band of sisters hasn't sued Skywest, Inc?
Why arent' you knocking down the courts doors for a petition to be integrated?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Is that right?

That's right poindexter!

I'll tell you what, ask for it back and then we'll discuss who really doesn't
"get it."

Ok sparky, maybe you need to read it again, because much like a neutered dog, YOU DON'T GET IT!
BTW, how'd that lawsuit work out for you?:laugh:

 

[buscap]

And another thing people, Delta management will never go for your plan. It's too freakin expensive. Just the training and pilot shuffle costs alone are too high. It's much cheaper to just kick your guys to the curb for a few years.

I just don't see you guys giving up whatever it would take to talk the company into it.

The only thing that will work for everyone is a flat out bottom staple with all widget flying done on one seniority list. Every other option results in a B-team which can be leveraged against you.

But guess what...ain't gonna happen. You guys don't have the sense of short term sacrifice for long term gains that it would take. Management would want cuts from top to bottom and you ain't giving that up, and we both know it.

Not to mention the fact that you guys are not gonna tolerate a three breasted prop or RJ driver on the property, let alone in the training department. And don't get me started again on the ex-military guys thingy.

And we both know every other option maintains the present multi-tiered system, which will always act as a downward force on your vision of the profession.

If you allow a cessna caravan operation out there flying Delta PAX, it will someday grow into a stinking little cancer turd, just like us. The company will wave a little something in your face and you guys will allow some sort of scope. Next thing you know, that caravan op has got king-airs...oh my!!!

So, do what it takes to get it all in-house and tolerate my uneducated small plane flying butt in your crew lounge...or shut the F up and FLOW THIS!!!

You guys wanna maintain the caste system and then use it to your advantage, so you never have to hit the street. 'We're too good for a furlough....'

yeah...right

 

[N2264J]

Re: A little pro-ALPa Koolaid for ya

Joe, Those regional pilots opting to stay and make the regionals their career is what is killing this business model. You cost to much.

Oh, the indignity!

A full-of-himself Delta FO telling an ASA "dead wood" captain he costs too much before going on to say that he wouldn't sit in Joe's right seat for less than $90/hr. ALPA's public story always been the idea of getting everybody's wages and benefits up but Nostrodumbass has inadvertently revealed the real agenda:

Competition [read: alter egos] among the regionals keep the costs down for management. DALPA tweaked their scope clause so as to expand the bidding for DCI flying and now there are nine DCI carriers. An unintended consequence of that union busting maneuver is that while Delta pilots were butt slapping each other about Comair going away, Republic took over the Shuttle. The Delta Shuttle is going away and not just off the property but outside the union as well.

And Scope out RJs - the guy standing on the street corner yelling at cars. He's been cutting and pasting the same insults since he was 737Pyle. To the other Delta pilots on here, Scope is like that "challenged" relative who lives in the basement and nobody ever talks about. He has always represented his pilot group so well; a testament to Delta's psych eval.

Really, you can't find entertainment like this on cable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,
Those regional pilots opting to stay and make the regionals their career is what is killing this business model. You cost to much.
A flow will try to get the "dead wood" to move up so they can reset the seniority. It is a great cost savings measure, and is the only reason I can see DAL management going a long with that notion. (Money means more than control over hiring limits and qualifications)

Maybe we should just have a "flow up" to get the "dead wood" to move on up? Is making this flying "mainline" going to lower the cost?

I got one for you. I do not like this whole idea of a flow for many reasons. 1) It will reset the DCI costs and once again promote outsourcing, 2) Pilots that are on the DCI list from DAL are not subject to disciplinary action at the regional effecting their mainline employment rights, 3) In the event of a merger using the LCC arbitrated award those pilots on the regional list were stappled, totally effecting career expectations and 4) it is a poor substitute for recapturing fliying and keeps a B scale of the hands of DALPA.

We agree that a flowthrough doesn't solve our mutual concerns...Wonder why ALPA has peddled it for so long...I am starting to believe a one way flow up may be the answer however...

Now you want DAL guys to the bottom of the list. I say, I do not care where I sit, as long as I make what I was making the day I walked of the DAL property. That means that as a year three or four DC-9/88 FO I would get paid 88 to 90.28 an hr to sit in you right seat. Now that sounds fine by me. Been there done that. Add to that, I continue to accrue longevity and my pay goes up per the DAL CBA. It is not about where you sit, I could care less if I am a CA or an FO for a temporary job.

Why would the company agree to pay you 90 bucks an hour to sit in the right seat of an RJ? You can wish all you want to....ain't going to happen....

Now, it response to why I care. I am in little fear of furlough. It has to do with the people below me and protecting their rights, income potential and career expectations. It is not all or mostly about me. It is about the group I am part of. I want what is best for the plug and what is best for numero uno in the list.

You must be concerned that there will be some furloughs however...otherwise it wouldn't matter where a Delta pilot falls on a DCI list...Unless you want to "bid" into it when the commuting gets tough?...Hmmm....