A breach of ethics at PinnaColaba?

[e=mc2]

Girls, sounds like that new contract is working out real good for ya'll.

 

[bri5150]

We also lost the flow for most on our list. We would have had more than a good shot at getting those 10 700's from ASA, not to mention all 3 of the 200's that Pinnacle lost (which could have been more if Delta have pity because of this merger debacle). Sure, it's all speculation, but so is you saying "so and so" would be right seat when all the Saabs were gone. Flyer, everyone lost here except the most senior and most of Colgan. Please deal with it or go to a company where you think you will upgrade quicker.

 

[higney85]

We also lost the flow for most on our list. We would have had more than a good shot at getting those 10 700's from ASA, not to mention all 3 of the 200's that Pinnacle lost (which could have been more if Delta have pity because of this merger debacle). Sure, it's all speculation, but so is you saying "so and so" would be right seat when all the Saabs were gone. Flyer, everyone lost here except the most senior and most of Colgan. Please deal with it or go to a company where you think you will upgrade quicker.

FWIW I believe we are getting the 3 back in DEC by the planning prelims.

 

[CoATP]

Colgan has recieved jet CA both 900 and 200. ATL, DTW, JFK

 

[bri5150]

FWIW I believe we are getting the 3 back in DEC by the planning prelims.

Well, you will get one back by default because it already went to us. My point is, if this merger never happened, things may have been looked at different. Instead of 2 going to ASA, which sounds like they are in the same boat as us staffing wise, they may have gone to Mesaba and you may not have gotten any of them back. Again, speculation, but so are a lot of things we are talking about.

 

[Flyer1015]

Not quite... I would have been temporarily downgraded but certainly NOT pushed out of base, in fact I would have remained very senior as FO on the 900 IN my base, and once the flows went I would have returned to my position and likely moved up slightly... Now thanks to the Colgan windfall, I'm looking at a displacement out of base to hold captain temporarily til that base closes then back to FO I go with HUNDREDS of others now ahead of me for (re) upgrade.

Look dicknob, you aren't the only one getting the "jobbing" without the G.D. courtesy of a reach around here. Yes our "lifers" came out like roses, Damn near every Colgan pilot won as well, that left the rest of us to send out a shotgun of resumes.... Not the first time I have had to do so, probably won't be the last. If you want some help putting yours together, and can do so in civility while buying the first round, I'll be happy to help. I'll buy the rest in fact (til I lose my pay).

At least you admit to some reality. You would have been downgraded and been a FO in your base (not displaced from base, because as FO, you'd be senior enough).

We also lost the flow for most on our list. We would have had more than a good shot at getting those 10 700's from ASA, not to mention all 3 of the 200's that Pinnacle lost (which could have been more if Delta have pity because of this merger debacle). Sure, it's all speculation, but so is you saying "so and so" would be right seat when all the Saabs were gone.

No, there are different types of speculation. The speculation I was doing was figuring out how many of your pilots would be furloughed and downgraded when the Saabs were all parked by the end of the year. This isn't hard, you already have staffing ratios published, and a list of all current Saab pilots. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the rest. Pretty straightforward, hardly what I'd call a speculation. But forecasting future potential business, like 10 CRJs from ASA or others, is all 100% pure speculation with absolutely no grounds for proving it.

Well, you will get one back by default because it already went to us. My point is, if this merger never happened, things may have been looked at different. Instead of 2 going to ASA, which sounds like they are in the same boat as us staffing wise, they may have gone to Mesaba and you may not have gotten any of them back. Again, speculation, but so are a lot of things we are talking about.

Given this SLI and its C&R, all Pinnalce pilots, and I do mean all Pinnacle pilots, would have done better as a stand-alone group. Merging with a shrinking airline and biased quotas have hosed this pilot group. Alas, it cannot be changed (which is BS), but we can request clarification from Bloch on certain things. I love how all you Mesaba folks talk smack on our group (esp our merger committee) that we screwed ourselves by talking down on Saabs, and how we refused to acknowledge Saabs. That's not true. Our group only stated that the Saabs at Mesaba were being reduced to zero, and that we needed to account for that in the SLI process. No comment was made on Colgan's Saabs. I can understand if Bloch wants to keep 9E off the Mesaba Saabs, but there is no reason why 9E can't bid to Colgan Saabs. Why not? Colgan can bid our jets as long as our quotas are met, why shouldn't we be able to bid their Saabs once their quotas are met? He should be clarifying up this point. And I do like how most of you XJ people here scream to "live with it" and "move on" when it doesn't effect you. The double-screwing of displacing our Captains in the 1700s while Colgan awards Captains 600+ numbers junior to that is hardly a "fair and equitable" integration. No one got hosed more on the last vacancy than the Pinnacle pilot group.

 

[Theoden]

Here's one XJ guy that will admit it's a crime for any Pinnacle pilot to be displaced because of Mesaba losing airplanes. And I am glad for the part where I have a job because understaffed 9E upsorbed overstaffed XJ. But why do so many XJers wish this had never happened?

First, the "108 flow through pilots" was actually an unlimited number until XJ was purchased so XJ career expectations pre merger were not only the eventual return of all furloughs, but a job at mainline as well. Also, its no gurantee that XJ would not have recieved more planes just as its not certain 9E would have kept it's 200s if it had continued to cancel flights for crews.

Second, XJ was indeed a good place to work. Most pilots liked it here, even the ones who went throught the pretend bankruptcy enjoyed their work for the most part. My impression of 9E over the last 7 years has been that they dislike their jobs, their company, and their "NMFC". Everyone has people that hate their lot in life, but 9E has one of the least happy pilot groups I have ever seen.

Third, XJ used to have a horrible training center where examiners were inconsistent and instructors would yell and bully and kick the back of your seat. But then an immense effort was undertaken to completely eliminate that culture and today the XJ training environment is outstanding. There's a general fear at XJ (hopefully unfounded) that as 9E pilots we will go back to the way it was.

Bloch did indeed screw Pinnacle on the fences, even if he meant the 9E interpretation, it was strange how he put 9E over their numbers and XJ below its. I don't know why Bloch did the list as he did but it's almost as if emotion was involved and he was pissed at 9E where it came to fences. He did at least give 9E a boost in relative seniority, though.

 

[bri5150]

No, there are different types of speculation. The speculation I was doing was figuring out how many of your pilots would be furloughed and downgraded when the Saabs were all parked by the end of the year. This isn't hard, you already have staffing ratios published, and a list of all current Saab pilots. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the rest. Pretty straightforward, hardly what I'd call a speculation. But forecasting future potential business, like 10 CRJs from ASA or others, is all 100% pure speculation with absolutely no grounds for proving it.

Right, and I am saying nobody's speculation can be 100% correct. You speculated we wouldn't get any aircraft to keep all the Saab captains from going back to the right seat. I am speculating (now that we have seen planes move and have rumors we were offered the aircraft) that we could have gotten aircraft to offset the downgrades.

Again, we all lost in this merger. Mesaba lost the flow, most of us lost relative and DOH in SLI, probably a general downgrade in company culture, and we lost the opportunity to get more aircraft that mainline actually wants. We gained some cushion for our downgrades. You lost the "quick upgrade" but gained a very substantial pay rate raise, more aircraft that mainline wants, generally improved work rules, and hopefully a corporate culture that is better post-merger. Please try to accept the fact that we all lost something here and move on.

As I said before, if you think you can get a quicker upgrade somewhere else, please let your feet do the talking. Just the fact you are still here means you think you will upgrade here quicker than at any other regional that is hiring right now.

 

[higney85]

Well, you will get one back by default because it already went to us. My point is, if this merger never happened, things may have been looked at different. Instead of 2 going to ASA, which sounds like they are in the same boat as us staffing wise, they may have gone to Mesaba and you may not have gotten any of them back. Again, speculation, but so are a lot of things we are talking about.

To say what would have happened (positive or negative) is pointless because we don't know what would have happened. This industry is what it is, for better or for worse, until death do us part. There is always a 20/20 to a situation, problem is that each situation will bring different things into focus.

 

[Flyer1015]

Here's one XJ guy that will admit it's a crime for any Pinnacle pilot to be displaced because of Mesaba losing airplanes. And I am glad for the part where I have a job because understaffed 9E upsorbed overstaffed XJ. But why do so many XJers wish this had never happened?

First, the "108 flow through pilots" was actually an unlimited number until XJ was purchased so XJ career expectations pre merger were not only the eventual return of all furloughs, but a job at mainline as well. Also, its no gurantee that XJ would not have recieved more planes just as its not certain 9E would have kept it's 200s if it had continued to cancel flights for crews.

Second, XJ was indeed a good place to work. Most pilots liked it here, even the ones who went throught the pretend bankruptcy enjoyed their work for the most part. My impression of 9E over the last 7 years has been that they dislike their jobs, their company, and their "NMFC". Everyone has people that hate their lot in life, but 9E has one of the least happy pilot groups I have ever seen.

Third, XJ used to have a horrible training center where examiners were inconsistent and instructors would yell and bully and kick the back of your seat. But then an immense effort was undertaken to completely eliminate that culture and today the XJ training environment is outstanding. There's a general fear at XJ (hopefully unfounded) that as 9E pilots we will go back to the way it was.

Bloch did indeed screw Pinnacle on the fences, even if he meant the 9E interpretation, it was strange how he put 9E over their numbers and XJ below its. I don't know why Bloch did the list as he did but it's almost as if emotion was involved and he was pissed at 9E where it came to fences. He did at least give 9E a boost in relative seniority, though.

This is the first great post I've seen from a XJ guy in this thread. Thank you for this. Very well written!

bri, just wait until Age 70 passes. It's already under discussion right now. RJ F/O wages were not ever meant to be lived on for the better part of a decade, but that may quickly become reality for many.

 

[Inconceivable]

Third, XJ used to have a horrible training center where examiners were inconsistent and instructors would yell and bully and kick the back of your seat. But then an immense effort was undertaken to completely eliminate that culture and today the XJ training environment is outstanding. There's a general fear at XJ (hopefully unfounded) that as 9E pilots we will go back to the way it was.

There are still a few of those. One is an ex-cop just voted out of the MEM LEC who should be drug tested for steroid use. That is one real bad actor who has no business holding an FAA letter.

 

[bri5150]

This is the first great post I've seen from a XJ guy in this thread. Thank you for this. Very well written!

bri, just wait until Age 70 passes. It's already under discussion right now. RJ F/O wages were not ever meant to be lived on for the better part of a decade, but that may quickly become reality for many.

He said the same things I have been saying except he is sorry the 9E guys are downgrading.

What am I supposed to wait for with age 70? I don't understand why that is directed at me. If 70 does go through, that is better for 9E because the fences will be gone and we will still be here. Mesaba's lost seniority is forever. Your fence is 5 years.

Oh, and the 200 ASA is going to be a much bigger issue than it is now.

 

[Simon Says]

Pinnacle,

Get off XJ's backs and go talk to your MEC and specifically Hunter. They are the ones that negotiatied your deal....Not Me.

 

[higney85]

There are still a few of those. One is an ex-cop just voted out of the MEM LEC who should be drug tested for steroid use. That is one real bad actor who has no business holding an FAA letter.

Because a guy is "big" he's on roids? He wasn't voted out, he didn't run. Big difference. He can do ANOTHER one of my rides any day of the week.

 

[higney85]

Pinnacle,

Get off XJ's backs and go talk to your MEC and specifically Hunter. They are the ones that negotiatied your deal....Not Me.

Negotiated our deal? It was arbitrated. If you ever get the pleasure of meeting him I believe you would say otherwise. He is an asset to all the pilots at PNCL. The end result was not to "plan", as neither of the other 2 groups as well. In the end our issue was the quotas. Many see this, to lambast a single PILOT over this is knocking one of your fellow co-workers. The issue (from a 9E standpoint) is Bloch. The other 2 groups are living handsomely off his work. The latest realignment award only serves as proof.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Bloch did indeed screw Pinnacle on the fences, even if he meant the 9E interpretation, it was strange how he put 9E over their numbers and XJ below its. I don't know why Bloch did the list as he did but it's almost as if emotion was involved and he was pissed at 9E where it came to fences. He did at least give 9E a boost in relative seniority, though.

It's not our fault that 9E didn't have proper staffing to man our contract that they were gifted. He took a snapshot at a certain date and built the fences off those staffing levels. I won't apologize for that. The fences did not take into account our flow-thru's. The fences should of covered more of our positions. In comparison to what Colgan got, yeah we all were hosed. But to compare Mesaba and Pinnacle, there's no reason to complain. But don't worry with the Age 70 "hitting" when the fences go poof you 9E boys will hit the jackpot with your seniority numbers. You've got 80#'s guaranteed to move when the flow is done, attrition and the landslide seniority vs DOH (compared to the XJ guys around you).
But keep bitching here it will do you a lot of good.

 

[Flyer1015]

It's not our fault that 9E didn't have proper staffing to man our contract that they were gifted. He took a snapshot at a certain date and built the fences off those staffing levels. I won't apologize for that. The fences did not take into account our flow-thru's. The fences should of covered more of our positions. In comparison to what Colgan got, yeah we all were hosed. But to compare Mesaba and Pinnacle, there's no reason to complain. But don't worry with the Age 70 "hitting" when the fences go poof you 9E boys will hit the jackpot with your seniority numbers. You've got 80#'s guaranteed to move when the flow is done, attrition and the landslide seniority vs DOH (compared to the XJ guys around you).
But keep bitching here it will do you a lot of good.

It's not our fault that 9E didn't have proper staffing to man our contract that they were gifted. He took a snapshot at a certain date and built the fences off those staffing levels. I won't apologize for that. The fences did not take into account our flow-thru's. The fences should of covered more of our positions. In comparison to what Colgan got, yeah we all were hosed. But to compare Mesaba and Pinnacle, there's no reason to complain. But don't worry with the Age 70 "hitting" when the fences go poof you 9E boys will hit the jackpot with your seniority numbers. You've got 80#'s guaranteed to move when the flow is done, attrition and the landslide seniority vs DOH (compared to the XJ guys around you).
But keep bitching here it will do you a lot of good.

I still don't get it. Both Mesaba and Colgan get to dip their hands into the pot of Gold. Mesaba, with their displaced pilots all holding RJ Captain positions (those holding FO on jets did so by choice). Colgan, with plenty of guys bidding and getting CRJ-200 and -900 Captain positions. Pinnacle? Not only did we downgrade 10+ Captains back to FO, and displace current Captains out of their base, but we are being prohibited from even being able to bid a Saab Captain seat. While Mesaba and Colgan gain at our expense, we lose. What reason could there possibly be to keep Pinnacle off from Colgan's Saabs? Mesaba, I can understand. But Colgan's Saabs? They have their Qs protected, and the Saabs protected at a certain quota. But like our RJ quota, once we're above, Colgan can bid and get our Captain positions. How can you possibly think that pilots being displaced with seniority numbers 1700s not be able to hold Captain while Colgan pilots 600 numbers junior on the seniority list are being awarded Saab Captain? This is not 'fair and equitable.' In this vacancy award, Mesaba received fair and equitable results. Colgan received fair and equitable results. Pinnacle got nothing. Just screwed out of Captain positions, and witheld from the Saabs.



And my understanding was that there are no fences. Only quotas. Once a pilot group holds a minimum Captain position for a certain aicraft, it is open to be bid across by the other two pilot group. That is how Bloch set up the C&R. Now the dispute is regarding the Colgan Saabs, and I really, really doubt that Bloch meant for a TRUE FENCE to be up to prohibit Pinnacle Captains to touch Saab Captains for 5 years.

I wonder, though, when Bloch does finally respond to the 9E clarification, and indeed rules in our favor, which merger committee will be the first to dispute it? Mesaba or Colgan?

 

[MACH-TUCK]

There are still a few of those. One is an ex-cop just voted out of the MEM LEC who should be drug tested for steroid use. That is one real bad actor who has no business holding an FAA letter.

wow thats some real BullSH!t right there... Its funny how people come on here and back stab other pilots all day long. Unfreakingbelievable!!!

 

[Simon Says]

Negotiated our deal? It was arbitrated. If you ever get the pleasure of meeting him I believe you would say otherwise. He is an asset to all the pilots at PNCL. The end result was not to "plan", as neither of the other 2 groups as well. In the end our issue was the quotas. Many see this, to lambast a single PILOT over this is knocking one of your fellow co-workers. The issue (from a 9E standpoint) is Bloch. The other 2 groups are living handsomely off his work. The latest realignment award only serves as proof.

Higney,

There is a re-occuring theme here with 9E. You guys always get the shaft. I mean always. Every single freaking time.

You have to ask yourself why. Why is it that we couldn't get a contract together, why did we have so many grievances, why are there so many re-calls, why did we get it in the shorts on this SLI. etc. etc. etc.

Now it could be that nothing goes your way because of bad luck and that every one of your ALPA leaders have done nothing wrong. It is always someone or something else that caused these bad sets of events.

Higney, I feel you, and quite a few others in your group needs to look in the mirror to figure out why nothing goes your way. Change from within.

Mesaba negotiatied with a gun to our head and some how our group did OK. Was it that we were just lucky?

I am not bagging on you or your group. I am just saying that it is not always some outside force for the reason of things not going your way.

 

[xjhawk]

You know here is the real deal people-I think i was wronged in the SLI-I understand that many 9E FO's on there think they were in some sort of high opportunity awesome place with a bright future at 9E for them but you need to open your eyes. I am not sure about the Colgan pilots who were handed everything on a golden platter but our mesaba senior guys-most know they were given a present and are thankful but sorry that guys in my position were screwed-bottom line-there is nothing we can do about it-other than change your own circumstances. I am not hating all pinnacle pilots for pushing a NON-DOH solution to the SLI which would have prevented this crap for both 9E fo's and mesaba jr captains. I do not hate senior xj'ers or all colgan pilots-yes I am bitter but am getting over it. we all know on this board who needs to get over it-and stop blaming mesaba. Do something about it-leave this place. Its the best thing for those of us who were screwed to do. Know that in 5 years when we have lost a huge amount of crj 200's that you may rethink just how great of a position your entitled 9E pilot group brought to the table. Delta handed Mesaba and its 900's on a golden platter to Pinnacle and dont think for a second that if they could have they would have just sent the planes-but our union did a good enough job in the past that they built protections in our contract. So they were OUR 900's-and to end this-I will say I was screwed out of my future and my ability to hold MSP 900 captain through loss of seniority to Pinnacle and Colgan pilots