A breach of ethics at PinnaColaba?

[WMUSIGPI]

Not true dude, are you crazy? One of my great friends, actually a CFI who taught me much for my instrument rating, is a LGA SF3 Captain at Mesaba. A majority of your LGA SF3 Captains were hired April-July 2007.

You're splitting hairs here. The above shouldn't keep ALL Pinnacle Captains off the Saabs, I just think the wording should have been more clear as to his intent. No matter, the 9E side of things will be getting a clarification from Bloch very soon, and then we will see what he truly meant.​

Sorry, you are correct, LGA is kinda the forgotten land. I hadn't really looked at what was/is happening out there. However in the land of traditional Mesaba bases, I am correct, other than the bottom 2 MSP captains listed as April 07 hires (both actually were hired years before that as ground instructors but couldn't be put on the list because of the bankruptcy/furloughs) the most junior SF3 captain is from the summer of 05. Even in LGA it only goes to mid 07. Captain seats at Mesaba other than a brief period in 07 have not come quickly over the past 10+ years.

 

[Flyer1015]

Captain seats at Mesaba other than a brief period in 07 have not come quickly over the past 10+ years.

I distinctly remember Mesaba hiring entry level (street) Captains on the Saab just a few years ago. And now the upgrades will come quick for Mesaba pilots, thanks to Bloch.

 

[bri5150]

I distinctly remember Mesaba hiring entry level (street) Captains on the Saab just a few years ago. And now the upgrades will come quick for Mesaba pilots, thanks to Bloch.

And those street captains downgraded quite a while ago.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I distinctly remember Mesaba hiring entry level (street) Captains on the Saab just a few years ago. And now the upgrades will come quick for Mesaba pilots, thanks to Bloch.

Yes that street captain time was briefly a few classes in 07 because many fo's didn't want to upgrade for whatever their personal reasons were and we don't have an up or out policy.
And I don't know what FO's you think are upgrading so quickly here. There are (and will be more) plenty of downgraded captains that will have a chance first.

 

[DoinTime]

As for your second question. Here is the language from the award:​

6. For a period of five years beginning with submission of the
integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba
pilots may be awarded or displaced to a Q-400 captain
unless Colgan pilots maintain 193 Q-400 captain positions.​

7. For a period of five years beginning with the submission of
the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be
awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no
pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a​

Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains.

Do you see the difference in the wording between these two fences? If Pinnacle were allowed to bid to the Saab, it would have been worded like number 6, but it is not. Pinnacle has it's own fragment of a sentence. If Bloch intended for what you are saying he did, it would read:

Truth is that it could be read either way. He doesn't have to write it like he does in other parts of the award for it carry the same meaning. There would have to be a reason why Bloch would bar PCL pilots from the saab and clearly there isn't one.

I've heard this issue will be the first to be going back to Bloch to decide what it means so get ready for more heartache over the "Metzger Quotas". That little parting gift from a soon to be flow up will haunt us here at 9E/9L for the next five years.

 

[bri5150]

/sigh. This place is getting ridiculous. We are really still fighiting a legal battle over the SLI? The only thing I thought was done really isn't. Sooooo, now Mesaba was purchased 15 months ago and not a single thing is done. F it. We need to fight for DOH within the categories because he eludes to it in another part of the award. Let's burn it down so nobody here has a job in a few months.

 

[Flyer1015]

the "Metzger Quotas". That little parting gift from a soon to be flow up will haunt us here at 9E/9L for the next five years.

What? Do share?

/sigh. This place is getting ridiculous. We are really still fighiting a legal battle over the SLI? The only thing I thought was done really isn't. Sooooo, now Mesaba was purchased 15 months ago and not a single thing is done. F it. We need to fight for DOH within the categories because he eludes to it in another part of the award. Let's burn it down so nobody here has a job in a few months.

There is no legal battle to fight here. 9E is simply requesting a clarification, and as mentioned before, there just isn't any reason to keep 9E pilots off the Saabs for five years. Bloch will be getting in touch soon and we will all know. Until then, keep your "sigh" to yourself. We have guys getting downgraded from CA to FO, no one getting the Q because of the steep Colgan quota, and so far no Saab Captain positions as a result of this vacancy award. So excuse you for someone wanting to clarify from Bloch regarding the Saab quota.

NO quota in the C&R has barred a pilot group entirely from being able to bid and be awarded a position. All of them guarantee a pilot group a certain amount of positions before it all goes in strict seniority order. I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

 

[xjgearbtch]

1. Who appointed FS, a Mesaba employee, to handle vacancy awards? Why him? Why not a Colgan guy? Or why not a Pinnacle guy?

2. Did the Mesaba merger committee OR the Mesaba MEC provided any input to Frank in terms of their interpretation of the ISL conditions/restrictions for this vacancy award? IF this can be proven, it constitutes a breach of ethics, or at the very least, a breach of common sense integrity. Our 3 airlines should have consulted with Bloch first, clarified the conditions/restrictions, and then carried forward. This award not only displaced our Captains back to FOs, but also prevented any 9E Captains from being awarded a Saab position. I cannot see this exact wording on the C&R, which only leads me to think that the Mesaba committee has provided their own interpretation to Frank and that is what has happened.

Is the above true? If it is, then that is very, very disturbing!

You seriously need to figure out what to do with your free time. Put down the conspiracy pipe, you've smoked more then your share. Here's a quote from yesterday's union email

"Each Merger Committee is charged with*****ensuring that the Conditions and Restrictions*****of the Bloch Award*****were correctly applied in this*****Realignment as well as*****any future Vacancy, Realignment or Reduction.***** If you have questions or concerns regarding the Conditions and Restrictions or their impact, please contact your Merger Committee."

If you think FS is stabbing you in the back go to your merger committee and complain. Their job is to ensure the awards are correctly issued. You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.
I'm glad the guys on here who post 20 messages a day don't spend that time doing union work. We'd all be hosed if you actually had that responsibility.

 

[Flyer1015]

If you think FS is stabbing you in the back go to your merger committee and complain. Their job is to ensure the awards are correctly issued. You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.
I'm glad the guys on here who post 20 messages a day don't spend that time doing union work. We'd all be hosed if you actually had that responsibility.

FS isn't stabbing us in the back. But it's quite clear someone has provided him guidance on the interpretation of the C&R. I still don't agree that we at 9E can't touch Saab CA positions. That is the stance Mesaba has taken, the Mesaba union has resounded, and the one FS has gotten to use. The 9E side has already requested clarification from Bloch.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What? Do share?





There is no legal battle to fight here. 9E is simply requesting a clarification, and as mentioned before, there just isn't any reason to keep 9E pilots off the Saabs for five years. Bloch will be getting in touch soon and we will all know. Until then, keep your "sigh" to yourself. We have guys getting downgraded from CA to FO, no one getting the Q because of the steep Colgan quota, and so far no Saab Captain positions as a result of this vacancy award. So excuse you for someone wanting to clarify from Bloch regarding the Saab quota.

NO quota in the C&R has barred a pilot group entirely from being able to bid and be awarded a position. All of them guarantee a pilot group a certain amount of positions before it all goes in strict seniority order. I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

There is a reason for it, 9E didn't bring any into the merger. Just has both 9E and XJ are kept off the Q400 because neither brought any into the merger. Sucks, yes. But my guess is that's what he will tell you.
Now IF that IS the answer then I would argue the same should be the case for Colgan in reguards to any jet captain position and we should be getting those spots back.

 

[xjhawk]

That's not what I interpret when I read the C&R.



Name one. All Mesaba Saab Captains are senior to a Pinnacle pilot hired in March 2007, and they are JFK CA. Worse case scenario for Mesaba Captains is to bid JFK CA, using their displacement rights, and forcing our JFK CAs back to the right seat. As has already happened...

so what are you complaining about, again?

I will tell you who got screwed more-any mesaba pilot hired between 2001-2004. Let me get this through your thick skull-and your precious ego. These pilots in this Mesaba group had ALL colgan Q pilots put senior to them-as Junior as 2007 hires and all Pinnacle captains (pre-merger) some hired in 2006. You lash out at Mesaba pilots and the company for YOUR senior pilots-and your pilot group for being idiots during the SLI. If this would have went straight DOH what you are saying would not be a problem. Oh and if Pinnacle Corp would be smart, since they are short Captains on your side they would not displace (OUR) pilots from their captains positions in JFK. But Pinnacle management has such a messed up business plan and culture that they cannot pull their heads out of their a$$-sort of like you

 

[bri5150]

I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this? It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

 

[DoinTime]

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this?

Our Merger Committee did not take the stance that Saabs don't exist. They took the stance that Mesaba Saabs were soon to be gone and despite all kinds of denial from the Mesaba merger committee, they were spot on correct. Colgan Saabs have a longer life span planned and that was never disputed.

It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

It has not been the stance from the PCL side. You guys don't just get to make up your own reality and then wonder why people question it.

 

[Flyer1015]

You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.

Live with it? Our committee didn't say anything about Colgan's Saabs. They mentioned YOUR Mesaba Saabs would be gone and therefore should be accounted for in some way with the SLI. We have guys getting downgraded due to pilots at your airline now getting our Captain positions, and we have guys at Colgan, 600+ numbers junior to them on the list who are getting Saab Captains. There is something seriously wrong with that picture. 9E isn't going to just "live with it." Thanks for your concerns. Take the xj and gear out of your name, that's what you sound like.

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this? It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

Our committee did no such thing. See DoinTime's post. The stance they took was that your Mesaba Saabs were going to be gone and that it should be accounted for in the SLI. As for your suggestion it was the case from the day the award came out, I never took the interpretation that way.

There is a reason for it, 9E didn't bring any into the merger. Just has both 9E and XJ are kept off the Q400 because neither brought any into the merger. Sucks, yes. But my guess is that's what he will tell you.
Now IF that IS the answer then I would argue the same should be the case for Colgan in reguards to any jet captain position and we should be getting those spots back

It doesn't matter if we didn't bring any into the merger. Colgan didn't bring any jets into the merger, but they are now on both the CRJ-200s and the CRJ-900s. There were simply quotas to fill and once filled, they could bid across. The same should be the case for the Saabs. Once the Saab quota is filled (which it was) it should go in seniority order, to include Pinnacle pilots.

Oh and if Pinnacle Corp would be smart, since they are short Captains on your side they would not displace (OUR) pilots from their captains positions in JFK.

Uh, the new JCBA requires them to. One of your provisions from the Mesaba contract. Under our (9E) old book, they would suck up the secondary displacements. Now, net positions in needs to equal net positions out. As Mesaba Saab pilots bid JFK Captain, they will displace an equal amount of pilots out (9E guys).

 

[RJLoser]

PCL cant bid the turboprop = Colgan can't bid the jet.