A breach of ethics at PinnaColaba?

[bri5150]

/sigh. This place is getting ridiculous. We are really still fighiting a legal battle over the SLI? The only thing I thought was done really isn't. Sooooo, now Mesaba was purchased 15 months ago and not a single thing is done. F it. We need to fight for DOH within the categories because he eludes to it in another part of the award. Let's burn it down so nobody here has a job in a few months.

 

[Flyer1015]

the "Metzger Quotas". That little parting gift from a soon to be flow up will haunt us here at 9E/9L for the next five years.

What? Do share?

/sigh. This place is getting ridiculous. We are really still fighiting a legal battle over the SLI? The only thing I thought was done really isn't. Sooooo, now Mesaba was purchased 15 months ago and not a single thing is done. F it. We need to fight for DOH within the categories because he eludes to it in another part of the award. Let's burn it down so nobody here has a job in a few months.

There is no legal battle to fight here. 9E is simply requesting a clarification, and as mentioned before, there just isn't any reason to keep 9E pilots off the Saabs for five years. Bloch will be getting in touch soon and we will all know. Until then, keep your "sigh" to yourself. We have guys getting downgraded from CA to FO, no one getting the Q because of the steep Colgan quota, and so far no Saab Captain positions as a result of this vacancy award. So excuse you for someone wanting to clarify from Bloch regarding the Saab quota.

NO quota in the C&R has barred a pilot group entirely from being able to bid and be awarded a position. All of them guarantee a pilot group a certain amount of positions before it all goes in strict seniority order. I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

 

[xjgearbtch]

1. Who appointed FS, a Mesaba employee, to handle vacancy awards? Why him? Why not a Colgan guy? Or why not a Pinnacle guy?

2. Did the Mesaba merger committee OR the Mesaba MEC provided any input to Frank in terms of their interpretation of the ISL conditions/restrictions for this vacancy award? IF this can be proven, it constitutes a breach of ethics, or at the very least, a breach of common sense integrity. Our 3 airlines should have consulted with Bloch first, clarified the conditions/restrictions, and then carried forward. This award not only displaced our Captains back to FOs, but also prevented any 9E Captains from being awarded a Saab position. I cannot see this exact wording on the C&R, which only leads me to think that the Mesaba committee has provided their own interpretation to Frank and that is what has happened.

Is the above true? If it is, then that is very, very disturbing!

You seriously need to figure out what to do with your free time. Put down the conspiracy pipe, you've smoked more then your share. Here's a quote from yesterday's union email

"Each Merger Committee is charged with*****ensuring that the Conditions and Restrictions*****of the Bloch Award*****were correctly applied in this*****Realignment as well as*****any future Vacancy, Realignment or Reduction.***** If you have questions or concerns regarding the Conditions and Restrictions or their impact, please contact your Merger Committee."

If you think FS is stabbing you in the back go to your merger committee and complain. Their job is to ensure the awards are correctly issued. You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.
I'm glad the guys on here who post 20 messages a day don't spend that time doing union work. We'd all be hosed if you actually had that responsibility.

 

[Flyer1015]

If you think FS is stabbing you in the back go to your merger committee and complain. Their job is to ensure the awards are correctly issued. You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.
I'm glad the guys on here who post 20 messages a day don't spend that time doing union work. We'd all be hosed if you actually had that responsibility.

FS isn't stabbing us in the back. But it's quite clear someone has provided him guidance on the interpretation of the C&R. I still don't agree that we at 9E can't touch Saab CA positions. That is the stance Mesaba has taken, the Mesaba union has resounded, and the one FS has gotten to use. The 9E side has already requested clarification from Bloch.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What? Do share?





There is no legal battle to fight here. 9E is simply requesting a clarification, and as mentioned before, there just isn't any reason to keep 9E pilots off the Saabs for five years. Bloch will be getting in touch soon and we will all know. Until then, keep your "sigh" to yourself. We have guys getting downgraded from CA to FO, no one getting the Q because of the steep Colgan quota, and so far no Saab Captain positions as a result of this vacancy award. So excuse you for someone wanting to clarify from Bloch regarding the Saab quota.

NO quota in the C&R has barred a pilot group entirely from being able to bid and be awarded a position. All of them guarantee a pilot group a certain amount of positions before it all goes in strict seniority order. I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

There is a reason for it, 9E didn't bring any into the merger. Just has both 9E and XJ are kept off the Q400 because neither brought any into the merger. Sucks, yes. But my guess is that's what he will tell you.
Now IF that IS the answer then I would argue the same should be the case for Colgan in reguards to any jet captain position and we should be getting those spots back.

 

[xjhawk]

That's not what I interpret when I read the C&R.



Name one. All Mesaba Saab Captains are senior to a Pinnacle pilot hired in March 2007, and they are JFK CA. Worse case scenario for Mesaba Captains is to bid JFK CA, using their displacement rights, and forcing our JFK CAs back to the right seat. As has already happened...

so what are you complaining about, again?

I will tell you who got screwed more-any mesaba pilot hired between 2001-2004. Let me get this through your thick skull-and your precious ego. These pilots in this Mesaba group had ALL colgan Q pilots put senior to them-as Junior as 2007 hires and all Pinnacle captains (pre-merger) some hired in 2006. You lash out at Mesaba pilots and the company for YOUR senior pilots-and your pilot group for being idiots during the SLI. If this would have went straight DOH what you are saying would not be a problem. Oh and if Pinnacle Corp would be smart, since they are short Captains on your side they would not displace (OUR) pilots from their captains positions in JFK. But Pinnacle management has such a messed up business plan and culture that they cannot pull their heads out of their a$$-sort of like you

 

[bri5150]

I would be very surprised if his original intent was indeed to keep 9E off the Saab captain positions altogether. There just isn't any reason for that, and I am hoping he clarifies it.

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this? It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

 

[DoinTime]

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this?

Our Merger Committee did not take the stance that Saabs don't exist. They took the stance that Mesaba Saabs were soon to be gone and despite all kinds of denial from the Mesaba merger committee, they were spot on correct. Colgan Saabs have a longer life span planned and that was never disputed.

It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

It has not been the stance from the PCL side. You guys don't just get to make up your own reality and then wonder why people question it.

 

[Flyer1015]

You can't touch SAAB CA positions, that's what your committee tripped themselves into. Live with it.

Live with it? Our committee didn't say anything about Colgan's Saabs. They mentioned YOUR Mesaba Saabs would be gone and therefore should be accounted for in some way with the SLI. We have guys getting downgraded due to pilots at your airline now getting our Captain positions, and we have guys at Colgan, 600+ numbers junior to them on the list who are getting Saab Captains. There is something seriously wrong with that picture. 9E isn't going to just "live with it." Thanks for your concerns. Take the xj and gear out of your name, that's what you sound like.

The 9E negotiating team took the stance that the Saabs don't exist. That is the reason Bloch fenced you from the Saabs. If your negotiating team doesn't think they exist, then they won't exist for you. That is the reasoning. Why are they just now questioning this? It has been the stance since the day the award came out that 9E was fencced from the Saabs.

Our committee did no such thing. See DoinTime's post. The stance they took was that your Mesaba Saabs were going to be gone and that it should be accounted for in the SLI. As for your suggestion it was the case from the day the award came out, I never took the interpretation that way.

There is a reason for it, 9E didn't bring any into the merger. Just has both 9E and XJ are kept off the Q400 because neither brought any into the merger. Sucks, yes. But my guess is that's what he will tell you.
Now IF that IS the answer then I would argue the same should be the case for Colgan in reguards to any jet captain position and we should be getting those spots back

It doesn't matter if we didn't bring any into the merger. Colgan didn't bring any jets into the merger, but they are now on both the CRJ-200s and the CRJ-900s. There were simply quotas to fill and once filled, they could bid across. The same should be the case for the Saabs. Once the Saab quota is filled (which it was) it should go in seniority order, to include Pinnacle pilots.

Oh and if Pinnacle Corp would be smart, since they are short Captains on your side they would not displace (OUR) pilots from their captains positions in JFK.

Uh, the new JCBA requires them to. One of your provisions from the Mesaba contract. Under our (9E) old book, they would suck up the secondary displacements. Now, net positions in needs to equal net positions out. As Mesaba Saab pilots bid JFK Captain, they will displace an equal amount of pilots out (9E guys).

 

[RJLoser]

PCL cant bid the turboprop = Colgan can't bid the jet.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

PCL cant bid the turboprop = Colgan can't bid the jet.

And in my previous post... I agree with that thought.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Our Merger Committee did not take the stance that Saabs don't exist. They took the stance that Mesaba Saabs were soon to be gone and despite all kinds of denial from the Mesaba merger committee, they were spot on correct. Colgan Saabs have a longer life span planned and that was never disputed.




It has not been the stance from the PCL side. You guys don't just get to make up your own reality and then wonder why people question it.

That would be fine with me ONLY if we got credit for EVERY position vacated by OUR flow ups (know that they will be going), That would have perhaps downgraded me temoprarily as the Saabs go, but allowed me right back into my seat shortly after as the flows left... now I will be pushed out with NO hope of anything better than eventually CDO captain on the 200 in DTW.
You can't have it both ways (unless you sold your soul to work at Colgan a few years ago)

 

[Flyer1015]

PCL cant bid the turboprop = Colgan can't bid the jet.

Not true. Colgan can bid the jet, so as long as the jet quotas are met by both Pinnacle and Mesaba. We are waiting on a clarification from Bloch on Pinnacle. 9E pilots should be able to bid Saabs as long as the Saab quota is met by Mesaba and Colgan. If Bloch wanted to punish Pinnacle on the Saabs, he would have kept them off the Mesaba Saabs, since they were disappearing. The Colgan Saabs are sticking around, so there's no valid reason to deny 9E pilots positions on the Saab as Captain.

 

[Flyer1015]

I will tell you who got screwed more-any mesaba pilot hired between 2001-2004. Let me get this through your thick skull-and your precious ego. These pilots in this Mesaba group had ALL colgan Q pilots put senior to them-as Junior as 2007 hires and all Pinnacle captains (pre-merger) some hired in 2006. You lash out at Mesaba pilots and the company for YOUR senior pilots-and your pilot group for being idiots during the SLI. If this would have went straight DOH what you are saying would not be a problem. Oh and if Pinnacle Corp would be smart, since they are short Captains on your side they would not displace (OUR) pilots from their captains positions in JFK. But Pinnacle management has such a messed up business plan and culture that they cannot pull their heads out of their a$$-sort of like you

What are you smoking? Pass that weed down. The best metric to look at who really got hosed is to consider an individual's pre-merger expectations. Your pre-merger expectation as a Mesaba pilot hired in 2001-2004 was to be downgraded back to FO, and 2007-onward FOs be furloughed as all Saabs were parked. That was your reality, pre-merger! Now look at the pre-merger expectation of a Pinnacle pilot. All of the current Captains would still be Captains. A March 2007 Pinnacle hire's expectation was to be a reserve Captain, and soon be a line-holding Captain, no longer on reserve. More upgrades would have pushed him up and gotten better schedules. Instead, post-merger he's now downgraded, displaced, and screwed like every other Pinnacle pilot. Our senior ones took it in the butt too, as your first category pilots made out like emperors.

I say again, your pre-merger expectations for a 2001-04 Mesaba pilot was to be downgraded to FO, take a 45% paycut, and most likely displaced out of a base. With this merger, despite the 2005-2007 Pinnacle and Colgan guys above you, every single Mesaba pilot from 2001-2004 is guranteed a Captain position on an RJ, because of quotas and displacement rights. We at Pinnacle have very junior Captains, as junior as March '07 DOH, and if you as a Mesaba pilot were before that (like you 2001-2004 pilots), your worse case scenario as a Mesaba pilot is to be a RJ Captain in another base. That is quite a step up from being downgraded, 45% paycut, and displaced out of your base.

I stand by my case that the ones screwed more than the 2001-2004 Mesaba hires were the Pinnacle hires from 2006-2007. Our pre-merger expectations are all but gone in thin air, as Mesaba takes over at our expense.

 

[Flyer1015]

now I will be pushed out with NO hope of anything better than eventually CDO captain on the 200 in DTW.

Your pre-merger expectation would have landed you back into the right seat, with an approximate 45% paycut, and a displacement out of your Captain base. Perhaps you should count your blessings that you have "NO hope for anything better than eventually captain on the 200 in DTW." That is your reality, a reality made possible by the PCL DTW -200 Captains being displaced to JFK, and the JFK -200 Captains being downgraded back to FO. So, that having been said, you have zero grounds for complaining.

 

[xjhawk]

listen chief-do your math. Bloch did not, since you are thick headed-I will say it again, Bloch did not take into account that we had 108 flow slots that with normal attrition and the Saabs leaving I and most (if not all) the 2001-2004 mesaba hires would have had a career expectation of JET captain. I have done the math a thousand times. Oh and if Delta would not have taken the flow for a couple years-big deal I take a good schedule as an FO for a year and retake my jet captain position back while I wait for the Majors to hire. Because you are too thick headed to understand.....I and many of this group lost all our career expectations because we got handed a 2:1 or worse seniority-so as never to get our bidding power back-so instead of a temporary set back-its a permanent one. I am not saying you did not get screwed-what I am saying is that because of your attitude and that of many of your fellow 9E pilots who did not want DOH-guess what? Your semi senior captains-Mesaba's top 340 and most Colgan pilots benefited.

If I smoked weed I would be a lot happier right now-I wish I did-I wish it were legal and I would-but I do not. Just for the record. Your self of entitlement is almost as bad as Mesaba's most senior FO's had (some still do) when they were first hired here. I still cannot figure out why a company would displace a 200 Captain when they are short 200 pilots? Maybe its planning on returning more to Delta where they can reassign them to Go Jets or ASA? Yes Mr Flyer-your pilots sure brought a lot to the table on this.....I cannot wait until 2017 when all the 200's can go away

 

[xjhawk]

listen chief-do your math. Bloch did not, since you are thick headed-I will say it again, Bloch did not take into account that we had 108 flow slots that with normal attrition and the Saabs leaving I and most (if not all) the 2001-2004 mesaba hires would have had a career expectation of JET captain. I have done the math a thousand times. Oh and if Delta would not have taken the flow for a couple years-big deal I take a good schedule as an FO for a year and retake my jet captain position back while I wait for the Majors to hire. Because you are too thick headed to understand.....I and many of this group lost all our career expectations because we got handed a 2:1 or worse seniority-so as never to get our bidding power back-so instead of a temporary set back-its a permanent one. I am not saying you did not get screwed-what I am saying is that because of your attitude and that of many of your fellow 9E pilots who did not want DOH-guess what? Your semi senior captains-Mesaba's top 340 and most Colgan pilots benefited.

If I smoked weed I would be a lot happier right now-I wish I did-I wish it were legal and I would-but I do not. Just for the record. Your self of entitlement is almost as bad as Mesaba's most senior FO's had (some still do) when they were first hired here. I still cannot figure out why a company would displace a 200 Captain when they are short 200 pilots? Maybe its planning on returning more to Delta where they can reassign them to Go Jets or ASA? Yes Mr Flyer-your pilots sure brought a lot to the table on this.....I cannot wait until 2017 when all the 200's can go away

 

[Flyer1015]

listen chief-do your math. Bloch did not, since you are thick headed-I will say it again, Bloch did not take into account that we had 108 flow slots that with normal attrition and the Saabs leaving I and most (if not all) the 2001-2004 mesaba hires would have had a career expectation of JET captain. I have done the math a thousand times. Oh and if Delta would not have taken the flow for a couple years-big deal I take a good schedule as an FO for a year and retake my jet captain position back while I wait for the Majors to hire. Because you are too thick headed to understand.....I and many of this group lost all our career expectations because we got handed a 2:1 or worse seniority-so as never to get our bidding power back-so instead of a temporary set back-its a permanent one. I am not saying you did not get screwed-what I am saying is that because of your attitude and that of many of your fellow 9E pilots who did not want DOH-guess what? Your semi senior captains-Mesaba's top 340 and most Colgan pilots benefited.

If I smoked weed I would be a lot happier right now-I wish I did-I wish it were legal and I would-but I do not. Just for the record. Your self of entitlement is almost as bad as Mesaba's most senior FO's had (some still do) when they were first hired here. I still cannot figure out why a company would displace a 200 Captain when they are short 200 pilots? Maybe its planning on returning more to Delta where they can reassign them to Go Jets or ASA? Yes Mr Flyer-your pilots sure brought a lot to the table on this.....I cannot wait until 2017 when all the 200's can go away

Incorrect on Bloch not taking into account the Mesaba flowthroughs. He clearly mentions it in his award and talks about how it will result in movement, when he discusses the top positions on the ISL. Delta accelerated the rate of the Saabs being parked. And I think you are giving too much credit too the flowthroughs. They are not youngsters by any means. A majority are 40-45+ and will have to do serious math to see if if it's worth leaving or staying here in the long run. Nothing changes the fact that Delta accelerated the Saabs being parked and now the Mesaba pilots are being displaced. Your career expectation in the long run may have been jet Captain, but as a 2001-2004 hire, you were most likely looking at being downgraded to FO . And my sense of entitlement? Is wanting our guys to NOT get downgraded really a sense of entitlement? Is wanting our guys to get Captain positions on the Saab when Colgan pilots in the 2300 getting them, a sense of entitlement? As of this moment, we are being screwed out of our seats due to Mesaba's displacements, and then hosed by not getting into the Saabs.

I say again, your bidding power automatically guarantees you a jet Captain position, since you are above the most junior Pinnacle jet Captains. All it takes is one guy junior to you for you to bid RJ Captain in a base, and you get it when you are displaced. And we'll worry about 2017 when 2017 gets here. As of this moment, we brought 125 CRJ-200s and 16 CRJ-900s to this merger. You brought 41 CRJ-900, 19 CRJ-200, and negative several dozen Saab 340s, the effects of which are being felt now. Our pilots are being displaced and downgraded to accomodate your Mesaba displacing pilots. And so far, our pilots are being denied Saab Captain positons while Colgan pilots far junior are getting them. Sorry, but you will get zero sympathy for your 2001-2004 seniority "loss."

 

[Metro752]

Date of hire would fix all of this.

This kumbaya ******************** to make everyone happy doesn't.

Morans!

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Your pre-merger expectation would have landed you back into the right seat, with an approximate 45% paycut, and a displacement out of your Captain base. Perhaps you should count your blessings that you have "NO hope for anything better than eventually captain on the 200 in DTW." That is your reality, a reality made possible by the PCL DTW -200 Captains being displaced to JFK, and the JFK -200 Captains being downgraded back to FO. So, that having been said, you have zero grounds for complaining.

Not quite... I would have been temporarily downgraded but certainly NOT pushed out of base, in fact I would have remained very senior as FO on the 900 IN my base, and once the flows went I would have returned to my position and likely moved up slightly... Now thanks to the Colgan windfall, I'm looking at a displacement out of base to hold captain temporarily til that base closes then back to FO I go with HUNDREDS of others now ahead of me for (re) upgrade.

Look dicknob, you aren't the only one getting the "jobbing" without the G.D. courtesy of a reach around here. Yes our "lifers" came out like roses, Damn near every Colgan pilot won as well, that left the rest of us to send out a shotgun of resumes.... Not the first time I have had to do so, probably won't be the last. If you want some help putting yours together, and can do so in civility while buying the first round, I'll be happy to help. I'll buy the rest in fact (til I lose my pay).