Weird, I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that one
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Weird, I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that one
i fly boxes
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We have jumpseat priority on delta flights, and they have priority on us. Should be a big bullet point at recruiting event.
What bullet point would that be? "We're parking 140 airplanes, with near industry bottom RJ wages, but you can now get high jumpseat priority over other DCI carriers!"
Still doesn't sound appealing. You'd be crazy to consider 9E for employment today when other regionals with better futures/more aircraft growth are hiring with bonsues.
Carl_Spackler
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I'm confident DL will do what it needs to do to get new hires to show up for class. Not sure what but they have all of the power to sweeten the pot enough to make 9E an attractive place.
Like you said, what can they do? It's already a 7 year concessionary contract. So short of a guaranteed job at Delta, what makes 9E attractive to newhires? Losing 140 planes with pay lower than other better regionals doesn't look good for 9E.
Carl_Spackler
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Their pilots got a new contract before the amenable date, they could do the same thing here.
There could be a staple.
There could be signing bonuses.
There could be the promise or a quick upgrade or new bases.
And monkeys could fly out of Richard Anderson's, well you know what I mean...
No new "net" aircraft no "quick upgrades" Great I get a NYC base on 20K a year
jynxyjericho
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They are keeping expectations realistic. Obviously they want to see if owning a cheap regional would be worth it in the long run, but with so much training costs and the fact Pinnacle didn't go as low as they wanted (GoJets) we won't be around a whole lot longer. The only way to mitigate some of the costs is to get more airplanes and that means more damn RJ's total in DCI or we take them from other DCI carriers. Either sucks.
Regionals are dying and collapsing under their own weight. In 3-5 years there won't be but 3 regionals left and Pinnacle won't be one of them. Phildo the Dildo made that future for us.
Regionals are dying and collapsing under their own weight. In 3-5 years there won't be but 3 regionals left and Pinnacle won't be one of them. Phildo the Dildo made that future for us.
xjhawk
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There are still people scared that Delta will sell us off. Those rumors to me lack any care as our only asset is the number of pilots we have and everyone knows people are leaving as fast as they can. The only thing that will keep me from leaving as soon as I can will be a staple-not a flow as I have already had one of those and they are not worth a crap. I will also not be waiting around for 1000 pilots to get hired at Delta or somewhere else before I am granted an "interview" with Delta.
That's quite doubtful. They made it 7 years for a reason. It's very unlikely that they will get a new contract before the amendable. And if past history is any lesson, remember the time period from May '05 to Feb '11?
No way. Delta didn't even give 9E a flow like they did Compass. If Delta wanted to staple Pinnacle, it would have happened instead of the SSP.
First, that would be a real slap in the face considering concessions were voted in. Second, just how much? 5k? The competition is already offering 5k, and they are getting 53 new E170s for American. Who's gonna come to 9E for the bonus when the fleet is shrinking?
Did you seriously just say "quick upgrade"? There hasn't been a quick upgrade at 9E since late 2007. Oh are you talking about the privileged career expecting Colgan pilots?
As for bases, Delta bases are already known so it's not like they will pull one in MQT out of thin air. MEM closed, and with the mainline base long gone, it is highly unlikely MEM will come back. ATL has a chance of coming back. Other than that, DTW/JFK/MSP currently exist, which leaves SLC/LAX/SEA/CVG. CVG is out, and SkyWest/ASA are in the west. There aren't many bases that 9E can just open up.
It doesn't matter what Wychor and gang agree or not agree. Delta owns you and will get what it wants. When Delta says jump, 9E will jump. If there's any hint of resistance, a quick shut down threat will keep the rank/file in order.
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Carl_Spackler
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I just figure if they (9E mgmt) got a guy like you, who is an expert of all things airline, to show up they (DL mgmt) can get other guys to do the same.
Be rational, when I joined 9E was stand-alone and not shrinking. At the time, there was quick movement too. All that is now gone.
Carl_Spackler
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jynxyjericho
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Left Colgan in 07 for Mesaba when Mesaba couldn't fill the classes and they paid a ton more than colgan in every measure. Colgan had more trouble than Mesaba as you would expect, but they got the numbers they needed. Pinnacle won't have trouble filling seats, but we have serious transitional costs from parking 140 200s . Unfortunately for Delta there isn't someone as stupid as pinnacle anymore than will buy a company who is about to park 40 Saab's never mind 140 rjs. As of this moment it would be tough to imagine pinnacle making it long enough to need employees for meaningful new hire classes. Good news, lots of guys moving on, I think we will be parking the 200s a little earlier than the last update
Do you have some secret supply source of 1500 hr ATP pilots? The only way Delta will get someone to come to 9E is a Delta number. Otherwise who wants to come to and stagnate their career at a shrinking regional with a 7 year concessionary contract?
Colgan got the pilots it needed because of the fast movement, as mentioned in "Flying Cheap." Today, Pinnacle Corp does not offer that. What makes a regional attractive? Its bases, sure, but the majority will choose a regional based on its future prospects. 9E has only MSP/DTW/JFK and other regionals already offer that and have better prospects. Compass for example has no net growth in aircraft but you know for fact that starting next year, they will lose up to 25% of their CAs per year in a flow and that will create lots of movement. Republic has 53 new E170s and prospects for growth/movement within the airline. So that having been said, who'd want to come to 9E? The little supply of ATP qualified pilots considering regionals will choose those regionals that actually have a good future in terms of pay/QOL/growth.
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jynxyjericho
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My upgrade was 22 days at the time and Colgan was upgrading guys being there for a year, and we paid more. You still having trouble with math, that why you got out of the engineering career? We had the faster movement and hirer pay the time I was talking about. My point was that even with those disadvantages Colgan filled their seats- not their classes- well enough to get the job done.
Your conclusion is faulty as usual, but don't stop. You are bringing your A game in entertainment on any pinnacle thread these days, and we can all use the cheap laughs.
Pinnacle will fill the seats here if they are hiring, they'll give us some bone in exchange for a hiring bonus if needed. However all this is simply mental masturbation at this point. We can start parking those 200s early with the attrition, its not like we need staffing for 140 extra rjs, even if we get another 30 planes on top of the promised 40 we can still lose nearly a thousand pilots and be fine.
xjhawk
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I would have to agree with Flyer (just this one time!) 
Ask anyone who has true knowledge of the pipeline of new applicants for ATP's or for that matter private, instrument, or commercial rides. They will tell you that the numbers of applicants are a mere fraction of what it was even a few years ago. There will be hardly any movement at pinnacle-what there is will be if there just happens to be more captains leaving than there is CRJ 200's being returned to Bombardier. Even then it will be a very slow movement. I would think anyone would rather go to Compass, Republic, Eagle, and of course Skywest. Delta will have to sweeten the pot in order to keep Pinnacles portion of their domestic feed viable. The bridge agreement (and interview with Delta-not a flow as some Delta pilots seem to think) will be nothing but a back up plan for most pilots. Most will leave ASAP for even non majors just to be at a better place. Even if Delta would offer a real flow-I will be the loudest reminding everyone about 800 pilots were already promised a flow with Delta but it was canceled.
Ask anyone who has true knowledge of the pipeline of new applicants for ATP's or for that matter private, instrument, or commercial rides. They will tell you that the numbers of applicants are a mere fraction of what it was even a few years ago. There will be hardly any movement at pinnacle-what there is will be if there just happens to be more captains leaving than there is CRJ 200's being returned to Bombardier. Even then it will be a very slow movement. I would think anyone would rather go to Compass, Republic, Eagle, and of course Skywest. Delta will have to sweeten the pot in order to keep Pinnacles portion of their domestic feed viable. The bridge agreement (and interview with Delta-not a flow as some Delta pilots seem to think) will be nothing but a back up plan for most pilots. Most will leave ASAP for even non majors just to be at a better place. Even if Delta would offer a real flow-I will be the loudest reminding everyone about 800 pilots were already promised a flow with Delta but it was canceled.You just proved my point. Colgan filled seats (and classes, as defined by getting FOs, and I can point to you plenty of FOs) because the upgrade time was very low. So even if the pay sucked, the move to the left seat would be quick and the pay would be higher than many RJ FOs while getting TPIC. You still haven't answered the question, how can 9E fill seats today in 2013, given the current turn of events. A 7 year concessionary contract and a shrinking fleet of 140 gone soon? What makes it attractive for an ATP qualified pilot to come to this mess? I already pointed at the competition, already offering 5k bonuses for newhires and they have 53 new planes for AA. People will go where their future looks best, with better pay and better advancement opportunities. Nothing like that exists at todays 9E, so why would any newhire want to come.
Because even Lakes gets a few every now and then. I agree that some will attract more than others, but Pinnacle will get some if they want them. It really just depends how choosy they are. In my opinion Pinnacle has been less choosy than most in the past. Let's see if that continues or not?
Most junior CA at Lakes is a Jan 2012 DOH. That's why Lakes still gets pilots. Get in, upgrade, get your time, get out is the Great Lakes mantra.
Oh but even you know that it's not that way anymore.
It is to get the TPIC time. I'd rather be a Lakes CA than a 7th year RJ FO. So the Lakes guys still have an advantage when it comes to hiring, especially fedex and SWA.
Jackie Moon
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No lakes guys in my new hire class but there were 2 rj fo's
jynxyjericho
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As has been said by me before the place won't make it long enough to need to hire because training will cost too much and this place will shut down for cost overruns due to previous management incompetence. The only way we would ever have to worry about pesky hiring problem is if things changed drastically. That would have to mean more airplanes or something like a b scale or something crazy. If something like that happens your variables change. I can't predict what an FO will find attractive with the change but you found a reason to go to pinnacle and stay, I'm sure we will find someone just like you all over again. Besides in the unlikely event we do need to hire it will be far enough in the future that the landscape will be very different.
Again, this is all mental masturbation. What an FO reasons out in his head as the best move for him or her doesn't matter to me, and I can't predict it. You create a nice allegory but your argument above precludes people from going to colgan, big sky, gulf stream, great mistakes, go jets, pinnacle, when Mesaba and Sky west couldn't hire fast enough, but it all worked out. No one shut down for lack of pilots, the requirements are higher now? You are ignorant to history if you think that matters enough to shut down an airline.
We will see though.
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