9e Upgrade Mins.

[bailey3083]

I believe you have look back further. Those of us who started after the down turn back in 1991 understand how lucky you are to have a job. I remember people requiring you to have 500 hrs of given just to be a flight Instructor. Then when I started flying frieght in 1996 there was me and 55 other pilots for 5 positions.
The young pilots today have never or will never know how bad and hard it can be so that is why they do not respect their jobs or the industry.

 

[n32jk]

Wouldn't you think the failure rate has little to do with a pilots total time and more to do with the training (or lack thereof) he receives? Having a total time requirement to upgrade that is greater than ATP minimums makes no sense.

No....training can only do so much. It takes experience to fly captain in a 121 operation.

 

[skyfrogge]

So.....what happened to TM???

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hehe.. hey I was 22 when I got hired! ...But had a 4 year degree and 1700 hours.


As far as the street captains, I was referring to the early 05 guys... that's when I upgraded. Well over 80% of those guys bombed one or more rides. I remember being in upgrade class and wondering what kind of retards we were hiring. I personally thought training was quite easy... new hire and upgrade. It's all what you put into it. The guys that made it seem to have done quite well, though.

The 05 guys were all hired as FO's, not street CAs. Many bid for and were awarded CA. However, all of the 05 guys recieved the same training: First Officer training.

When it was time to take the checkride suddenly, CA standards applied. It was Vegas odds baby! C'mon snake eyes!!

Those who were jumping the chasm from Comm/ME to ATP/Type rating had a tougher time. Those who were already typed and simply performed a Proficiency Check did well. Those in the middle had mixed results!

A great opportunity for the new hires that were awarded CA. Regardless, getting furloughed, starting a new company, new culture, no pay, no room/board, no CA training and making the Comm to ATP/type jump is a big step.

 

[Poahi]

I guess I just don’t get it. Is there really any reason to lower the mins right now? PCL has plenty of FO’s that meet the current mins that are just waiting to be called.

Where is all of this talk about lowering mins coming from?

Mgmt would have be preparing to get many more jets and at a much faster rate than previously reported for any lowering to take place.

I am not sure about the failure rate being so high. I know training has been pathetic in the past but some classes seem to go through with no problems. I suspect that on average the failure rate comes in at about 10% - 20%.

I think this tactic is in response to the NWA pilot contract deadline. In order to gain more support for the deal, management will throw lower minimums at the pilot group; the trade off is a 50 percent increase in pay for the junior FO's by way of an upgrade. It will also help fuel hiring if 9E is able to earn more business. Unfortunately, this strategy will further divide the pilot group - hence this philosophical discussion. It makes Pinnacle a less safe but more formidable bidder and financially stronger moving forward.

 

[CX880]

I'm not going to discuss the capabilities of the training department in this thread but I'll share some of the experiences that I have lived while training here at PCL. The attitudes of the individuals that are coming through is horrible, lets talk about that for a second. People feel that this whole regional industry is something that they have to give a minimal effort to before they get their call from SWA, FDX or whatever.
People are NOT putting the effort that an upgrade class deserves because this whole aviation gig has being too easy for them, their idea of "roughing it" was reserve on the RJ and I heard somebody in ops the other day talking about the SAAB being "Old School" because it has partial glass. The command authority, basic instrument skills, crew management and people skills are basically non existent. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those are requirements for command.
I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.
More than the training being deficient, I would argue that their lack of overall respect and dedication for this profession is a major contributor to the high upgrade failure rate.

Some people have 3000 hours, others have 1 hour repeated 3000 times. I'm done with the "low time" discussion because for me 5000/1000 PIC. should be the minimums for upgrade.

Wow... It's hard enough to get pilots now at days to fly at a regional, now they've also got to worry about bitter a-holes they'll run into in the cockpit. Why don't you focus on getting out of that s-hole instead of making sure fellow pilots are never will. It might be difficult for you to understand but most want to spend as little time as possible at a regional.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wow... It's hard enough to get pilots now at days to fly at a regional, now they've also got to worry about bitter a-holes they'll run into in the cockpit. Why don't you focus on getting out of that s-hole instead of making sure fellow pilots are never will. It might be difficult for you to understand but most want to spend as little time as possible at a regional.

Holy cow, you're missing the point!

I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about.

CX880, read that passage again.

How can you have an attitude of getting the he!! out of this regional airline, while you're doing IOE for crying out loud!

"Dumb Pilot" said the absolute right thing! Focus on getting your approaches stabilized and landings nailed before you start worrying about sending your resume to Fedex.

You may not want to spend much time at a regional, in fact, you probably wish to spend only as much time as necessary to get the 1000 turbine PIC, Part 121.


That's the problem nowadays, is that most of the young F/Os going to regionals have a " I'm OWED SOMETHING " attitude.


It's time to wakeup.


No one is "owed" anything.


I can't imagine how frustrating that experience must have been for that PNCL captain, "Dumb Pilot."


Seriously, what kind of nerve do you have as a new, green first officer to ask how junior the captain bid went, when you can't even make your approaches and landings properly during IOE?

You have lots to learn, so quit the " I'm owed a job at a major! " attitude.


Treat a job at a regional as professionally as you can. In fact, treat your regional job as if it MAY be your last aviation job. If you could try and do that, then your attitude might get a little better.


And in closing, no one is keeping you at the regionals. Leave if you don't like it. But don't drag others down cause you have a " I'm owed something" attitude or the " I'm only here to get my time, and then screw this place " attitude.... especially during IOE.



/end rant.

 

[Rook]

Hint: internal upgrades with no hard mins = 80% washout rate. Street CA hires with high total time and jet PIC time = <1% washout rate.

You remind me of the guy who blames everyone but himself when you pink your checkride. Like the guy I watched roll the CRJ sim upside down and crash on a V1 cut he KNEW was coming during a checkride while I'm over there yelling "RUDDER!" at the guy until the check airman hit me on the arm and told me to shut up.

After the screen goes red, he looked back at the check airman and said, "What happened?" After the check actually explained it to him he asked, "Can I do it again?" The check looked at me like, "Did this guy just actually ask me those two questions together?" This after he'd already had 3 attempts before he got his steep turns to standards. On an initial rate ride. He'd had all SORTS of latitude and blew it, then copped an attitude.

Needless to say he didn't pass that checkride and required 4 sim sessions before going back up to pass (barely). I would wager the majority of the busts fall into that attitude category.

The training department there isn't always stellar, but they're not bad enough to cause THOSE kinds of bust rates.

Ahh the good 'ol days. I remember that all of the street CA's in our class (besides your partner L70)passed on their first attempt. Of course all the street CA's in that class ( that passed)were all former Boeing PIC's. The one thing I hate about some of the newer guys coming on the line is basic airmanship. At places like FDX, UPS, and the other nationals,majors, Int'l carriers, airmanship is assumed. As a check airman I should only need to help the candidate integrate what they learned in the sim to the line environment. But what often is the case is that I'm CFI'ing again:bawling: .

Having to remind folks to keep the 10-9 page out during taxi and to have the SID out for departure is something that I shouldn't be doing. This is also one of my pet peeves on line checks. As far as when upgrade should happen, I chatted it up with a couple of guys during an overnight that were DC-10 drivers. At their company, you need to be recommended for upgrade. This seems to be good because you're being judged by your peers to be ready to accept the responsibility. Of cours on the opposite side of that coin, being a union guy like I am, seniority does have its place for CA vacancies. Of course it is up to the training dept. to weed the weak ones out. Unfortuantely ATP standards is just the minimum. Passing the check ride is easy. No experience required if you just maintain the minimum tolerances.

3701 wasn't a wake up call to some of us. I was flying that night and it was a crappy night as far as ISA was concerned. We were getting knocked around by turbulence in the mid-twenties. While paying attention to our decreasing performance I knew we weren't going to get much higher. My F/O, great guy but not 'experienced' kept telling me we should go higher. I knew we wouldn't be able to get any higher because of the CRJ's weak-d!ck engines. Of course miles away in MO, 2 of my teammates were fighting for their lives. A battle that they ultimately lost. Why didn't I climb higher? Because I knew we couldn't. Why did the 3701 crew? Stupidity? Maybe. The only way to learn judgement is by paying attention during your tenure at F/O. Absorb what is useful and disregard cowboy tendencies. The F/O that night wasn't experienced enough to know that his shiny jet was a real dog. He was probably just happy to be along for the ride. We all know that the jet was telling them that they were operating on the edge. I for one would like to hope that with paying pax on board, this never would've happened.

The CA that night was experienced. Obviously not enough in high altitude aero. but enough to have been a CA at 2 121 airlines. But he was just plain stupid that night. In my opinion he knew enough, but he acted recklessly and for that they both paid with their lives. I'm trying to make my company better by stressing performance on day 1 of I.O.E. Don't fly beyond the parameters of the jet. You have all of the performance info available to you in the jet. Use it! Learn it! Because our DX'rs aren't the best. It's up to you to make sure your a$$ gets from point A to B.

sorry for the dissertation.
Rook

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I haven't done it on Xmas eve (I'll bid all the way down to reserve to avoid working a holiday), but I've certainly waited for another flight to avoid certain Captains. When I used to commute to CAK from DTW there was a mix of PCL and XJ flights. I would always check to see who the PCL crew was to see whether I would take the flight. On more than one occassion, I skipped taking a PCL flight home and waited for a few hours to take the XJ flight after seeing who the PCL Captain was. Lots of other guys have done the same. Getting home a few hours earlier just isn't worth it sometimes.

What actions did you take to protect the passenger's families? Did you warn them not to fly with these captains? Have you referred these captains to pro stands? I don't see how these "unsafe captains" that jumpseaters will not fly with are able to remain at the company if people are so well aware of them.