9e Upgrade Mins.

[Top Gum]

I guess I just don’t get it. Is there really any reason to lower the mins right now? PCL has plenty of FO’s that meet the current mins that are just waiting to be called.

Where is all of this talk about lowering mins coming from?

Mgmt would have be preparing to get many more jets and at a much faster rate than previously reported for any lowering to take place.

I am not sure about the failure rate being so high. I know training has been pathetic in the past but some classes seem to go through with no problems. I suspect that on average the failure rate comes in at about 10% - 20%.

 

[StuckMic]

I'm not referring to CFI's who got in early, I'm referring to pilot mills that take someone from Private pilot through Multiengine Instrument with 350-400 hours TOTAL time, no real PIC except for their solo hours (which ain't much), then get into a CRJ and expect a year and a half later meeting ATP minimums that they are ENTITLED to a CA slot (reference attitudes shown in this thread and others).

Lear70…..I appreciate you using my quote at the end of your posts . I will acknowledge that what I said was pretty d@mn stupid. If you re-read my original post (with the exception of the last line) that more accurately reflects the point I was trying to make. Neither myself, or any other posters on this thread seem to indicate that someone is ENTITLED to a CA slot. If a guy doesn’t have the skills or experience to be CA, then one would hope a decent training program would weed him out. If he still manages to sneak through the cracks, and you feel he is dangerous, then that is what Pro Standards is for. It is clear you know about Pro Standards and have used them in the past.

I would like to change my quote from: “After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain”.

The revised version should be: “There are good Captains and bad Captains with 1500 hours total time. There are good Captains and bad Captains with 15000 hours total time. Total time is not the best indicator of a Captain’s abilities. Just because a pilot only has 1500 hours, this should not prevent him from being eligible for upgrade training”.

I still feel that a pilot who meets ATP minimums and has the seniority to hold CA should not be held back by an arbitrary total time number that is more restrictive than ATP minimums.

 

[XJohXJ]

I still feel that a pilot who meets ATP minimums and has the seniority to hold CA should not be held back by an arbitrary total time number that is more restrictive than ATP minimums.

If only Southwest's recruiting department felt the same way!

 

[Lear70]

If only Southwest's recruiting department felt the same way!

Or FedEx, or UPS, or Continental, or...



StuckMic, I appreciate your retraction and the change in attitude. However, the reality is that the vast majority of senior pilots and managers who are responsible for setting those minimums for each company don't agree.

It's been that way at every company I've ever worked at... In the opinion of a lot of us on here (we've had this debate before), someone shouldn't even be able to get a job as an airline pilot AT ALL, even as an F/O, without an ATP.

An Airline Transport Pilot rating to be an airline pilot.

Unfortunately, we don't get our way either, so I guess the middle ground is somewhere in between.

 

[XJohXJ]

Yeah, at least CAL will consider us lowly FOs...

 

[relief tube]

Hey, now that you fellas took a pay cut (while PCL's making money) so you could take more planes from Mesaba, upgrade'll come even sooner!!! yay

 

[Grinder10]

I guess that I'll be the first one to bite... What pay cut are you referring to? Because Pinnacle has not taken any pay cuts and is actively fighting for at least an industry standard contract. Please check your facts before accusing Pinnacle of being an active participant in the race to the bottom.

 

[n32jk]

Hey, now that you fellas took a pay cut (while PCL's making money) so you could take more planes from Mesaba, upgrade'll come even sooner!!! yay

What pay cut??? PCL pay has been set in stone since 99. That pay was middle of the road at the time. WE also got some major work rules improvements over the previous "Brady Bunch" contract. Mesaba pay rates for the 50 seaters was not a step up from PCL, in some areas it undercut ours, they did project out to 18 years. Their work rules are much better than ours especially in their last contract. Interestiingly enough many of the junior pilots at PCL would like pay to cap at 10 years cause they plan on being in a 747 next year. I remember riding in the jumpseat of an avro before their last contract. The conversation leaned toward statements that PCL had agreed to lower than industry pay rates for the jets. The captain was quite suprised to learn that my hourly rate was several dollars an hour higher than his was in the avro. It was not a contentious conversation, more an enlightenment. I see soooooo many posts from people on this board who do not have their facts correct.

 

[jc3]

If your worried about what young pilots think, then try talking with them and explaining the situation going on around them. If a young FO feels a certain way, it's probably because he's uneducated about the subject. A little conversation will go alot further then alot of assuming what a young guy is thinking!

 

[NuGuy]

p.s. I wrote letters to line standards about 2 CA's and 7 F/O's over a 5 year period, or about 1-2 a year. Most of the F/O's ended up back in line training. One didn't make it through and that sucks for him, but it needed to happen for safeties' sake. The CA's just ended up with observation rides and warnings to step up their professionalism in the cockpit, stick to sterile cockpit rules, and quit being so cavalier in their attitudes when on the flight deck. Not one of them was over 30, and one of the CA's and all but one of the F/O's had come from a pilot mill.

Excellent post, Lear.

In many cases similar to this that I have seen, it isn't generally a case of bad flying skills, but rather a piss poor attitude and/or thinking that they can do no wrong. In general, they lacked the emotional maturity for accurate self-examination.

In most cases, a lack of technical flying skills can FIXED if the person recognizes there is a problem. The judgement issue is a little more difficult, but if the pilot in question can recognize that this a problem, it too can be fixed.

Soooo many "problem children" skate through life by rote memorization on the odds that nothing bad happens. Problem is that either the odds are actually rather slim that anything bad does happen OR the person in the other seat is halfway awake/competent, so these folk develop a "I am the greatest, check out my l33wt ipod and spiky hair".

Sigh....

Nu