9e Upgrade Mins.

[Lear70]

Would love to know who it was. Have a flight number and seat number you'd care to PM me?

 

[Vertigo37]

It is indeed refreshing to see some of the distinguished authors noting how old they are. Makes me want to get my DUMBASS wheelchair for the next aircraft swap.

The best caveat for anyone trying to get hired or upgrading is from our beloved Clint: "Man's got to know his limitations."

I do not have a problem hiring low-time pilots provided they understand their limitations and need to stay in the game to improve "their craft." This is a serious game we play with great personal/professional rewards and grave results for those who do not keep up with the game.

We are in a grand and proud group. Many of us don't want to see the standards lowered with sub-par performers. That is great. While it is easy to place a great deal of responsibility for those who upgrade on the Company (pairing Green-on-Green is another topic), it truly lies with the individual to make the decision to bid for the upgrade.

Yes, the checks and balance lie with the ability to pass the checkride and the line-check, but we see how some have fallen through the cracks. When I decided to upgrade, I knew where my strengths and weaknesses were....and what they are today. The fact is my 8000 hours mean nothing. It is the experience I gained from being apart of the game since day 1 to become a decent Captain/pilot. And for those who have flown with me, I am a lousy pilot....but when I'm in that seat I give it my best and fly like the best (It's called being humble and not taking yourself too serious for anyone doing a psych-profile).

A lot of the experience did not come from the cockpit. It came from a lot of hangar flying from those willing to share their experiences so I could enhance my opportunities.

Be weary of those chomping on the bit to upgrade that can talk but can't walk. I love the guys who are getting ready to upgrade without completing their ATP written because in their own words: I've been a little lazy the last 2 years. I'm leary of folks who may try to upgrade but don't have the gonads to jump on the brakes because their Captain didn't want to get deiced in blowing snow.

I am deeply honored to fly and be associated with so many professionals that have helped me and who try to keep this professiona strong. We each have a lot at stake. We must provide hard-love mentoring to our new professionals. And sadly, there will be some who will need to exit the flight deck (or be kicked from it).

Cheers from Above....V

p.s. take time to enjoy the sights

 

[Lear70]

Well I do declare... that sounds a lot like Captain H. Hope your New Year's was fun and enjoyable!

I just got through flying a 3 day (with a long layover and a good bar with great beer and pool tables) with JP over here... all I can say is: "Thank you, Jesus".

Give a call sometime! I have a bet I lost with PCL_128 that I'm supposed to buy beer for at the upcoming MEM festivities... Have an idea where that should be done?

 

[Vertigo37]

Sorry...wrong letter for last name, right first name.:nuts: The name doesn't matter, we probably haven't shared a beer yet----we just share the love of flying like so many on this board.

One of these days I'll hunt you down. PM as the weather gets warmer and the sights come out of hibernation (TYJ). :beer:

Now back to the subject at hand....

V37 (the age is a clue).

 

[Dutch]

Hint: internal upgrades with no hard mins = 80% washout rate. Street CA hires with high total time and jet PIC time = <1% washout rate.

I would hope that guys with previous jet PIC time (i.e. previous experience as a CA) would have a better pass rate than guys new to the seat.

 

[600rvr]

I fly on the line too.... It seems as though I am being judged by my age group rather than my character or experience. I have 2000 hours and while I am not a super pilot, I have yet to fail any training event, nor have I unintentionally red screened any sim or aircraft for that matter. If my super low time bothers you, then please avoid my flights.

I really try to avoid any confrontation on these boards but you are all rediculous. If a person passes the checkride and line check, then congratulations to them. If you are avoiding flights because you fear for your personal safety, you(everyone) need to stop acting like a kid, be a professional and tell someone. We all have a duty to provide safe air travel to the unknowing and trusting public, and not just on our own flights. I can't believe the nonchalant attitude of some people. If you all truly loved flying you would go through the pains of discrediting truly dangerous pilots. We've all seen that it only takes one horrific even to scare the public out of flying.

Oh and I don't have a degree either. I absolutely agree that for most it is a necessary check-box for personal development. But give me a break please. I may not get an interview because of it(and that frustrates the hell out of me), but please stop subjecting me to these "moral" lectures about Ipods and backpacks. Unfortunately the people that truly need to read about moral character and tact have no idea what those words mean. And it seems the way you all talk about people without degrees, they may not even be able to read your posts. I love flying more than I loved college so I had to choose...

The point of my post was primarily to respond to people avoiding certain flights because of the captains or crew flying them. I really hate to send anyone back to training or even worse, cause them to lose their job, but if that's what it takes to keep my mom, dad, and wife safe, then so be it.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry...wrong letter for last name, right first name.:nuts: The name doesn't matter, we probably haven't shared a beer yet----we just share the love of flying like so many on this board.

One of these days I'll hunt you down. PM as the weather gets warmer and the sights come out of hibernation (TYJ). :beer:

We can do that, too! Our inestimable CA Hunter likes playing in Nashville at the outdoor rock concerts by small up-and-coming bands at this little hotspot that many of the 21+ college girls like to attend (they're very strict on drinking age so they don't lose their license).

With 5 colleges in the greater Nashville area, the sights are FANTASTIC!

600RVR, I wasn't trying to slap at you directly, I was simply observing that a LOT of the people with the same attitude as the guy I've quoted in my signature line seem to have the same background. Like I said about PCL pilots, most were great, but MANY of the young, low-time guys who came through a pilot mill had this same mentality and didn't really even understand what command is all about (still don't).

The cold, hard truth of the matter is that they, by and large, have little respect for the industry, will go to work for $14k-16k a year (poverty level wage) just to get the job, and be happy making $75k a year at 30 flying a jet around. Then they're just happy to be there when they DO get that major airline job.

They won't rock the boat until they're 50 with kids looking at college payments and wondering why they only make $125k a year at max CA pay.

Hint: It was the last 25 years of their own willingness to work for crap and not willing to rock the boat (strike) to get the pay back up to where it should be that CAUSED the whole mess.

I also guess I don't understand why you couldn't do both college AND flying. I did, as did many others. I went to a state school, got my 4-year degree, and all my ratings through CFII / MEI with Stafford Loans up to $20,000, all while working full-time, but I did it and got out at 23 then busted my hump for the next 2 years before I got into a Lear. It CAN be done, but it takes more hard work than most are willing to put into it, especially if they can be done in 18 months at a pilot mill before they're even 21, even if it costs them $75,000+ to do it.

In my opinion, that extra time spent in college growing up is worth its weight in gold, and you very well may be the exception to the rule, but in my experience, you would definitely be in the minority. So good for you, seriously, but I still believe a college degree helps build on the professionalism and maturity this career is starting to lack in its ranks.

p.s. I wrote letters to line standards about 2 CA's and 7 F/O's over a 5 year period, or about 1-2 a year. Most of the F/O's ended up back in line training. One didn't make it through and that sucks for him, but it needed to happen for safeties' sake. The CA's just ended up with observation rides and warnings to step up their professionalism in the cockpit, stick to sterile cockpit rules, and quit being so cavalier in their attitudes when on the flight deck. Not one of them was over 30, and one of the CA's and all but one of the F/O's had come from a pilot mill.

If it looks like a duck...

 

[iflyjets4food]

Ok, here's a serious question then. What line to the left seat of an RJ will you give respect to? You don't want to give respect to the pilot mill product who spent 150 hours as a CFI before sitting in the right seat for 2500 hours while begging for their 'owed' upgrade. I understand that. Do you respect the pilot who went to a university flight program, finished their degree, instructed for 800-900 hours, flew a piston-twin as a 135 PIC, and then made the shift to the right seat of said RJ? I'm not trying to get people fired up. I seriously want to know. I believe that if you put your time in coming through the ranks by building your bag of experience like the second example I have listed, and you see someone who didn't build that bag of experience but ended up in the same place, you would (and would be justified in my view) have less respect for that person. To me it seems that I have learned a lot going the route I have, and I am still very aware of what I don't know. In my view, if I have a lot to learn after what I've done, then there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that someone who hasn't done the same things or more can possibly be safe. I think the main issue must be attitude. If you are 'owed' something, you probably shouldn't have it. If you have earned something, there is a different attitude about it.

BTW, I really do want to know what you think about the two pilot scenarios above.

 

[Lear70]

Ok, here's a serious question then. What line to the left seat of an RJ will you give respect to? You don't want to give respect to the pilot mill product who spent 150 hours as a CFI before sitting in the right seat for 2500 hours while begging for their 'owed' upgrade.

I'm not referring to CFI's who got in early, I'm referring to pilot mills that take someone from Private pilot through Multiengine Instrument with 350-400 hours TOTAL time, no real PIC except for their solo hours (which ain't much), then get into a CRJ and expect a year and a half later meeting ATP minimums that they are ENTITLED to a CA slot (reference attitudes shown in this thread and others).

I understand that. Do you respect the pilot who went to a university flight program, finished their degree, instructed for 800-900 hours, flew a piston-twin as a 135 PIC, and then made the shift to the right seat of said RJ?

Absolutely, that is a VERY respectable way to get here and shows a track record of command as most of those 135 piston twin operations are single-pilot. Not ready for the left seat of an RJ quite yet, but after a couple years in the right seat, with a good attitude, upgrade should be a no-brainer.

I think the main issue must be attitude. If you are 'owed' something, you probably shouldn't have it. If you have earned something, there is a different attitude about it.

BINGO!

Good luck to you, seems like you're already well on your way!

 

[Inconceivable]

NTSB just announced the 3701 hearing will be Tuesday at 9am. Let's see what they have to say on the subject.