9e Upgrade Mins.

[-9Capt]

After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

That's both funny and scary at the same time.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I guess your to good to fly small jets huh? That is exactly the attitude that created this whole scope mess.

No I never said that, however, management said we could fly the 76 seaters at mainline for a larger pay and work rules cut.

 

[DoinTime]

No I never said that, however, management said we could fly the 76 seaters at mainline for a larger pay and work rules cut.

Are you under the impression that NW management is going to place the 36 CRJ-900's and 36 E-175's at mainline? Wow....you are an optimist.

 

[kmox29]

I'm not going to discuss the capabilities of the training department in this thread but I'll share some of the experiences that I have lived while training here at PCL. The attitudes of the individuals that are coming through is horrible, lets talk about that for a second. People feel that this whole regional industry is something that they have to give a minimal effort to before they get their call from SWA, FDX or whatever.
People are NOT putting the effort that an upgrade class deserves because this whole aviation gig has being too easy for them, their idea of "roughing it" was reserve on the RJ and I heard somebody in ops the other day talking about the SAAB being "Old School" because it has partial glass. The command authority, basic instrument skills, crew management and people skills are basically non existent. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those are requirements for command.
I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.
More than the training being deficient, I would argue that their lack of overall respect and dedication for this profession is a major contributor to the high upgrade failure rate.

Some people have 3000 hours, others have 1 hour repeated 3000 times. I'm done with the "low time" discussion because for me 5000/1000 PIC. should be the minimums for upgrade.

With that post, I believe your FlightInfo ID is a misnomer. Bravo.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Are you under the impression that NW management is going to place the 36 CRJ-900's and 36 E-175's at mainline? Wow....you are an optimist.

No, in contract negotiations more pay was given up to keep scope at 77 rather than 110. A bigger paycut would have kept it at 55.

 

[PCL_128]

Come on guys, your going to board and catch that flight home, on xmas eve, even if the captain has only 2500TT.

I haven't done it on Xmas eve (I'll bid all the way down to reserve to avoid working a holiday), but I've certainly waited for another flight to avoid certain Captains. When I used to commute to CAK from DTW there was a mix of PCL and XJ flights. I would always check to see who the PCL crew was to see whether I would take the flight. On more than one occassion, I skipped taking a PCL flight home and waited for a few hours to take the XJ flight after seeing who the PCL Captain was. Lots of other guys have done the same. Getting home a few hours earlier just isn't worth it sometimes.

 

[NuGuy]

Nu, good post. Difficult to tell, I don't understand the late-teen / early 20-something crowd anymore either. That's one of the reasons I like the idea of a college degree being a requirement; not just because they're smarter or better, although certainly more educated, but simply because having to go to college AND get your ratings AND get your flight experience makes you a more well-rounded and mature person (partly because of age) once you GET to that great job.

Certainly makes for a better month on the line with someone like that versus the spiky-hair, ipod-wearing, marginally-engaged 22 year old pilot who might have good stick skills but has no interest in that beautiful sunset, the incredible aurora borealis display further south than you normally ever see, or any other of the numerous joys of aviation that are the REASON I chose this profession.

Heyas Lear,

Back in the day, when I'd hear an old crusty dude talk about not understanding kids these days, I'd laugh. Today, I understand exactly what they mean.

What we've done is raise a generation of short attention span people that are VERY good at figuring out how to game the system with minimum effort and zero emotional investiment. The same kind of 'tards that will invite you to lunch, then sit there chatting on their cell phone, and then don't understand when you call them on their rudeness. I mean these people have NO social graces.

Oh well...

Nu

 

[Lear70]

The disengaged spiky-hair F.O. is the collage grad. Glad your not the one doing the interviews.

I beg to disagree.

The applicant who has been through 4 years of college as well as having the required flight time will, more often than not, realize that type of attitude / appearance is unprofessional and unacceptable in any kind of professional position in the public eye.

They may look or act like that on their days off, but you sure as H*LL don't see it on the line.

Just my experience of 5 years seeing these guys come and go at PCL. Funny how no one at FDX, DAL, or even AAI sports that kind of crap, and there are MANY early- to mid-twenty something pilots here at AAI. Guess the recruiters are catching it after all.

FP or Coach would bounce your butt right into a week off for showing up like that.

Hope you grow up before you get the interview.

 

[sinkrate]

After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

If you work in the southeast/midwest doing short hops you need 4 or 5 winter/spring flying seasons under your belt before you have the experience to deal with that violent weather. I've put more time and effort on my own into learning convective weather/radar use than most of these new FO's have on their entire aviation education. And then they demand I 'show them' how to use it in a few short hours.

Other regionals airlines have upgraded pilots to CA with just ATP mins. In the late 90's I off line jumpseated with such a crew. The CA had 1800 hours and the FO had 500 hours. I sat in the JS amazed as they simply accepted without question a vector into a level 4 thunderstorm. When we got out of that they accepted a vector into what turned out to be a level 6 with a text book bounded weak echo region on the southwest side. I asked them if I could demonstrate something to them with the radar. I showed them how to determine what they were getting ready to fly into and the hazards of it. After some resitance they asked ATC for a deviation. I have not set foot on one of their airplanes again.

And further more - what 'Dumb Pilot' and 'Lear 70" said.

 

[timmay]

I beg to disagree.

The applicant who has been through 4 years of college as well as having the required flight time will, more often than not, realize that type of attitude / appearance is unprofessional and unacceptable in any kind of professional position in the public eye.

They may look or act like that on their days off, but you sure as H*LL don't see it on the line.

Just my experience of 5 years seeing these guys come and go at PCL. Funny how no one at FDX, DAL, or even AAI sports that kind of crap, and there are MANY early- to mid-twenty something pilots here at AAI. Guess the recruiters are catching it after all.

FP or Coach would bounce your butt right into a week off for showing up like that.

Hope you grow up before you get the interview.

Lear, while I do agree with most of what you said even AAI isn't free of these types. I recently flew AT to LAS, while we are at the gate waiting to deplane a deadheading FO was on is cell phone talking to a buddy. In a full on scream. I especially liked it when he said "yea dude im getting paid to ride around in the back." Keep in mind I was 6-7 rows in front of him and EVERYONE around me was shaking there heads in disbelief. So dont think its just at the regional level.

 

[Lear70]

Would love to know who it was. Have a flight number and seat number you'd care to PM me?

 

[Vertigo37]

It is indeed refreshing to see some of the distinguished authors noting how old they are. Makes me want to get my DUMBASS wheelchair for the next aircraft swap.

The best caveat for anyone trying to get hired or upgrading is from our beloved Clint: "Man's got to know his limitations."

I do not have a problem hiring low-time pilots provided they understand their limitations and need to stay in the game to improve "their craft." This is a serious game we play with great personal/professional rewards and grave results for those who do not keep up with the game.

We are in a grand and proud group. Many of us don't want to see the standards lowered with sub-par performers. That is great. While it is easy to place a great deal of responsibility for those who upgrade on the Company (pairing Green-on-Green is another topic), it truly lies with the individual to make the decision to bid for the upgrade.

Yes, the checks and balance lie with the ability to pass the checkride and the line-check, but we see how some have fallen through the cracks. When I decided to upgrade, I knew where my strengths and weaknesses were....and what they are today. The fact is my 8000 hours mean nothing. It is the experience I gained from being apart of the game since day 1 to become a decent Captain/pilot. And for those who have flown with me, I am a lousy pilot....but when I'm in that seat I give it my best and fly like the best (It's called being humble and not taking yourself too serious for anyone doing a psych-profile).

A lot of the experience did not come from the cockpit. It came from a lot of hangar flying from those willing to share their experiences so I could enhance my opportunities.

Be weary of those chomping on the bit to upgrade that can talk but can't walk. I love the guys who are getting ready to upgrade without completing their ATP written because in their own words: I've been a little lazy the last 2 years. I'm leary of folks who may try to upgrade but don't have the gonads to jump on the brakes because their Captain didn't want to get deiced in blowing snow.

I am deeply honored to fly and be associated with so many professionals that have helped me and who try to keep this professiona strong. We each have a lot at stake. We must provide hard-love mentoring to our new professionals. And sadly, there will be some who will need to exit the flight deck (or be kicked from it).

Cheers from Above....V

p.s. take time to enjoy the sights

 

[Lear70]

Well I do declare... that sounds a lot like Captain H. Hope your New Year's was fun and enjoyable!

I just got through flying a 3 day (with a long layover and a good bar with great beer and pool tables) with JP over here... all I can say is: "Thank you, Jesus".

Give a call sometime! I have a bet I lost with PCL_128 that I'm supposed to buy beer for at the upcoming MEM festivities... Have an idea where that should be done?

 

[Vertigo37]

Sorry...wrong letter for last name, right first name.:nuts: The name doesn't matter, we probably haven't shared a beer yet----we just share the love of flying like so many on this board.

One of these days I'll hunt you down. PM as the weather gets warmer and the sights come out of hibernation (TYJ). :beer:

Now back to the subject at hand....

V37 (the age is a clue).

 

[Dutch]

Hint: internal upgrades with no hard mins = 80% washout rate. Street CA hires with high total time and jet PIC time = <1% washout rate.

I would hope that guys with previous jet PIC time (i.e. previous experience as a CA) would have a better pass rate than guys new to the seat.

 

[600rvr]

I fly on the line too.... It seems as though I am being judged by my age group rather than my character or experience. I have 2000 hours and while I am not a super pilot, I have yet to fail any training event, nor have I unintentionally red screened any sim or aircraft for that matter. If my super low time bothers you, then please avoid my flights.

I really try to avoid any confrontation on these boards but you are all rediculous. If a person passes the checkride and line check, then congratulations to them. If you are avoiding flights because you fear for your personal safety, you(everyone) need to stop acting like a kid, be a professional and tell someone. We all have a duty to provide safe air travel to the unknowing and trusting public, and not just on our own flights. I can't believe the nonchalant attitude of some people. If you all truly loved flying you would go through the pains of discrediting truly dangerous pilots. We've all seen that it only takes one horrific even to scare the public out of flying.

Oh and I don't have a degree either. I absolutely agree that for most it is a necessary check-box for personal development. But give me a break please. I may not get an interview because of it(and that frustrates the hell out of me), but please stop subjecting me to these "moral" lectures about Ipods and backpacks. Unfortunately the people that truly need to read about moral character and tact have no idea what those words mean. And it seems the way you all talk about people without degrees, they may not even be able to read your posts. I love flying more than I loved college so I had to choose...

The point of my post was primarily to respond to people avoiding certain flights because of the captains or crew flying them. I really hate to send anyone back to training or even worse, cause them to lose their job, but if that's what it takes to keep my mom, dad, and wife safe, then so be it.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry...wrong letter for last name, right first name.:nuts: The name doesn't matter, we probably haven't shared a beer yet----we just share the love of flying like so many on this board.

One of these days I'll hunt you down. PM as the weather gets warmer and the sights come out of hibernation (TYJ). :beer:

We can do that, too! Our inestimable CA Hunter likes playing in Nashville at the outdoor rock concerts by small up-and-coming bands at this little hotspot that many of the 21+ college girls like to attend (they're very strict on drinking age so they don't lose their license).

With 5 colleges in the greater Nashville area, the sights are FANTASTIC!

600RVR, I wasn't trying to slap at you directly, I was simply observing that a LOT of the people with the same attitude as the guy I've quoted in my signature line seem to have the same background. Like I said about PCL pilots, most were great, but MANY of the young, low-time guys who came through a pilot mill had this same mentality and didn't really even understand what command is all about (still don't).

The cold, hard truth of the matter is that they, by and large, have little respect for the industry, will go to work for $14k-16k a year (poverty level wage) just to get the job, and be happy making $75k a year at 30 flying a jet around. Then they're just happy to be there when they DO get that major airline job.

They won't rock the boat until they're 50 with kids looking at college payments and wondering why they only make $125k a year at max CA pay.

Hint: It was the last 25 years of their own willingness to work for crap and not willing to rock the boat (strike) to get the pay back up to where it should be that CAUSED the whole mess.

I also guess I don't understand why you couldn't do both college AND flying. I did, as did many others. I went to a state school, got my 4-year degree, and all my ratings through CFII / MEI with Stafford Loans up to $20,000, all while working full-time, but I did it and got out at 23 then busted my hump for the next 2 years before I got into a Lear. It CAN be done, but it takes more hard work than most are willing to put into it, especially if they can be done in 18 months at a pilot mill before they're even 21, even if it costs them $75,000+ to do it.

In my opinion, that extra time spent in college growing up is worth its weight in gold, and you very well may be the exception to the rule, but in my experience, you would definitely be in the minority. So good for you, seriously, but I still believe a college degree helps build on the professionalism and maturity this career is starting to lack in its ranks.

p.s. I wrote letters to line standards about 2 CA's and 7 F/O's over a 5 year period, or about 1-2 a year. Most of the F/O's ended up back in line training. One didn't make it through and that sucks for him, but it needed to happen for safeties' sake. The CA's just ended up with observation rides and warnings to step up their professionalism in the cockpit, stick to sterile cockpit rules, and quit being so cavalier in their attitudes when on the flight deck. Not one of them was over 30, and one of the CA's and all but one of the F/O's had come from a pilot mill.

If it looks like a duck...

 

[iflyjets4food]

Ok, here's a serious question then. What line to the left seat of an RJ will you give respect to? You don't want to give respect to the pilot mill product who spent 150 hours as a CFI before sitting in the right seat for 2500 hours while begging for their 'owed' upgrade. I understand that. Do you respect the pilot who went to a university flight program, finished their degree, instructed for 800-900 hours, flew a piston-twin as a 135 PIC, and then made the shift to the right seat of said RJ? I'm not trying to get people fired up. I seriously want to know. I believe that if you put your time in coming through the ranks by building your bag of experience like the second example I have listed, and you see someone who didn't build that bag of experience but ended up in the same place, you would (and would be justified in my view) have less respect for that person. To me it seems that I have learned a lot going the route I have, and I am still very aware of what I don't know. In my view, if I have a lot to learn after what I've done, then there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that someone who hasn't done the same things or more can possibly be safe. I think the main issue must be attitude. If you are 'owed' something, you probably shouldn't have it. If you have earned something, there is a different attitude about it.

BTW, I really do want to know what you think about the two pilot scenarios above.

 

[Lear70]

Ok, here's a serious question then. What line to the left seat of an RJ will you give respect to? You don't want to give respect to the pilot mill product who spent 150 hours as a CFI before sitting in the right seat for 2500 hours while begging for their 'owed' upgrade.

I'm not referring to CFI's who got in early, I'm referring to pilot mills that take someone from Private pilot through Multiengine Instrument with 350-400 hours TOTAL time, no real PIC except for their solo hours (which ain't much), then get into a CRJ and expect a year and a half later meeting ATP minimums that they are ENTITLED to a CA slot (reference attitudes shown in this thread and others).

I understand that. Do you respect the pilot who went to a university flight program, finished their degree, instructed for 800-900 hours, flew a piston-twin as a 135 PIC, and then made the shift to the right seat of said RJ?

Absolutely, that is a VERY respectable way to get here and shows a track record of command as most of those 135 piston twin operations are single-pilot. Not ready for the left seat of an RJ quite yet, but after a couple years in the right seat, with a good attitude, upgrade should be a no-brainer.

I think the main issue must be attitude. If you are 'owed' something, you probably shouldn't have it. If you have earned something, there is a different attitude about it.

BINGO!

Good luck to you, seems like you're already well on your way!

 

[Inconceivable]

NTSB just announced the 3701 hearing will be Tuesday at 9am. Let's see what they have to say on the subject.

 

[Top Gum]

I guess I just don’t get it. Is there really any reason to lower the mins right now? PCL has plenty of FO’s that meet the current mins that are just waiting to be called.

Where is all of this talk about lowering mins coming from?

Mgmt would have be preparing to get many more jets and at a much faster rate than previously reported for any lowering to take place.

I am not sure about the failure rate being so high. I know training has been pathetic in the past but some classes seem to go through with no problems. I suspect that on average the failure rate comes in at about 10% - 20%.

 

[StuckMic]

I'm not referring to CFI's who got in early, I'm referring to pilot mills that take someone from Private pilot through Multiengine Instrument with 350-400 hours TOTAL time, no real PIC except for their solo hours (which ain't much), then get into a CRJ and expect a year and a half later meeting ATP minimums that they are ENTITLED to a CA slot (reference attitudes shown in this thread and others).

Lear70…..I appreciate you using my quote at the end of your posts . I will acknowledge that what I said was pretty d@mn stupid. If you re-read my original post (with the exception of the last line) that more accurately reflects the point I was trying to make. Neither myself, or any other posters on this thread seem to indicate that someone is ENTITLED to a CA slot. If a guy doesn’t have the skills or experience to be CA, then one would hope a decent training program would weed him out. If he still manages to sneak through the cracks, and you feel he is dangerous, then that is what Pro Standards is for. It is clear you know about Pro Standards and have used them in the past.

I would like to change my quote from: “After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain”.

The revised version should be: “There are good Captains and bad Captains with 1500 hours total time. There are good Captains and bad Captains with 15000 hours total time. Total time is not the best indicator of a Captain’s abilities. Just because a pilot only has 1500 hours, this should not prevent him from being eligible for upgrade training”.

I still feel that a pilot who meets ATP minimums and has the seniority to hold CA should not be held back by an arbitrary total time number that is more restrictive than ATP minimums.

 

[XJohXJ]

I still feel that a pilot who meets ATP minimums and has the seniority to hold CA should not be held back by an arbitrary total time number that is more restrictive than ATP minimums.

If only Southwest's recruiting department felt the same way!

 

[Lear70]

If only Southwest's recruiting department felt the same way!

Or FedEx, or UPS, or Continental, or...



StuckMic, I appreciate your retraction and the change in attitude. However, the reality is that the vast majority of senior pilots and managers who are responsible for setting those minimums for each company don't agree.

It's been that way at every company I've ever worked at... In the opinion of a lot of us on here (we've had this debate before), someone shouldn't even be able to get a job as an airline pilot AT ALL, even as an F/O, without an ATP.

An Airline Transport Pilot rating to be an airline pilot.

Unfortunately, we don't get our way either, so I guess the middle ground is somewhere in between.

 

[XJohXJ]

Yeah, at least CAL will consider us lowly FOs...

 

[relief tube]

Hey, now that you fellas took a pay cut (while PCL's making money) so you could take more planes from Mesaba, upgrade'll come even sooner!!! yay

 

[Grinder10]

I guess that I'll be the first one to bite... What pay cut are you referring to? Because Pinnacle has not taken any pay cuts and is actively fighting for at least an industry standard contract. Please check your facts before accusing Pinnacle of being an active participant in the race to the bottom.

 

[n32jk]

Hey, now that you fellas took a pay cut (while PCL's making money) so you could take more planes from Mesaba, upgrade'll come even sooner!!! yay

What pay cut??? PCL pay has been set in stone since 99. That pay was middle of the road at the time. WE also got some major work rules improvements over the previous "Brady Bunch" contract. Mesaba pay rates for the 50 seaters was not a step up from PCL, in some areas it undercut ours, they did project out to 18 years. Their work rules are much better than ours especially in their last contract. Interestiingly enough many of the junior pilots at PCL would like pay to cap at 10 years cause they plan on being in a 747 next year. I remember riding in the jumpseat of an avro before their last contract. The conversation leaned toward statements that PCL had agreed to lower than industry pay rates for the jets. The captain was quite suprised to learn that my hourly rate was several dollars an hour higher than his was in the avro. It was not a contentious conversation, more an enlightenment. I see soooooo many posts from people on this board who do not have their facts correct.

 

[jc3]

If your worried about what young pilots think, then try talking with them and explaining the situation going on around them. If a young FO feels a certain way, it's probably because he's uneducated about the subject. A little conversation will go alot further then alot of assuming what a young guy is thinking!

 

[NuGuy]

p.s. I wrote letters to line standards about 2 CA's and 7 F/O's over a 5 year period, or about 1-2 a year. Most of the F/O's ended up back in line training. One didn't make it through and that sucks for him, but it needed to happen for safeties' sake. The CA's just ended up with observation rides and warnings to step up their professionalism in the cockpit, stick to sterile cockpit rules, and quit being so cavalier in their attitudes when on the flight deck. Not one of them was over 30, and one of the CA's and all but one of the F/O's had come from a pilot mill.

Excellent post, Lear.

In many cases similar to this that I have seen, it isn't generally a case of bad flying skills, but rather a piss poor attitude and/or thinking that they can do no wrong. In general, they lacked the emotional maturity for accurate self-examination.

In most cases, a lack of technical flying skills can FIXED if the person recognizes there is a problem. The judgement issue is a little more difficult, but if the pilot in question can recognize that this a problem, it too can be fixed.

Soooo many "problem children" skate through life by rote memorization on the odds that nothing bad happens. Problem is that either the odds are actually rather slim that anything bad does happen OR the person in the other seat is halfway awake/competent, so these folk develop a "I am the greatest, check out my l33wt ipod and spiky hair".

Sigh....

Nu