9e Upgrade Mins.

[Smarta$$]

I'm not going to discuss the capabilities of the training department in this thread but I'll share some of the experiences that I have lived while training here at PCL. The attitudes of the individuals that are coming through is horrible, lets talk about that for a second. People feel that this whole regional industry is something that they have to give a minimal effort to before they get their call from SWA, FDX or whatever.
People are NOT putting the effort that an upgrade class deserves because this whole aviation gig has being too easy for them, their idea of "roughing it" was reserve on the RJ and I heard somebody in ops the other day talking about the SAAB being "Old School" because it has partial glass. The command authority, basic instrument skills, crew management and people skills are basically non existent. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those are requirements for command.
I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.
More than the training being deficient, I would argue that their lack of overall respect and dedication for this profession is a major contributor to the high upgrade failure rate.

Some people have 3000 hours, others have 1 hour repeated 3000 times. I'm done with the "low time" discussion because for me 5000/1000 PIC. should be the minimums for upgrade.

VERY good post.

 

[xjgearbtch]

amen dumb pilot. Saftey its NWA's priority.... when we have time to get around to it.

 

[StuckMic]

For all you guys out there that think a Captain needs 3000 or 5000 hours to upgrade, that's insane. There are many airlines, both regional and major, that only require ATP mins. to be Captain. If it was really that dangerous, we would be reading a story every week about how another plane crashed again because of a 1500 hour PIC. If a pilot can demonstrate his skills and decision making as Captain by passing a type ride, OE, Fed ride, line check, etc. then why not let him be Captain? I feel there are only 3 reasons why so many upgrades are failing at Pinnacle: (1) Poor training – this is definitely the largest factor (2) Bad attitude of applicant and general laziness (3) Lack of skills to be PIC - this includes stick skills and decision making ability. That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

 

[SELCAL checks]

Dumb Pilot summed it up well.

I am not too worried about upgrade minimums being lowered.

Why would they lower the mins and increase their insurance costs when there are currently upgrade candidates filling every vacancy with the present requirements?

The washout rate is so insanely high because the APDs are not allowing the bar to be lowered. The company can lower the mins, but the washout rate will just increase exponentially... along with the bill for wasted simulator time. It's very telling to me that these kids are failing orals and type rides in an airplane they have been flying for several years. Getting the type is the easiest part of upgrade.

The NTSB is about to release its final report on 3701, which will get much press. I don't think NWA/9E can afford a follow up story about how 9E just lowered the mins for new captains.

If all else fails, and 1500 hour wonder children make it to the line in the left seat... I will be terminated for refusing all 9E deadhead assignments.

 

[NuGuy]

That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

Wow! It's not even January 2nd yet, and we already have the winner for 2007's most inane post award.

FI never ceases to amaze me....

Nu

 

[DoinTime]

There are many airlines, both regional and major, that only require ATP mins. to be Captain. If it was really that dangerous, we would be reading a story every week about how another plane crashed again because of a 1500 hour PIC.

Most airlines don't need a minimum requirement because rarely does the seniority system allow upgrades with the applicant only having a short employment with the company.

If a pilot can demonstrate his skills and decision making as Captain by passing a type ride, OE, Fed ride, line check, etc. then why not let him be Captain?

A monkey could be trained to pass a type ride. OE and line checks are dependant on the conditions encountered when doing these events. Its not hard to show that you have "the right stuff" over a period of 25 hours of day VFR flying.

That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

With this attitude alone you should be barred from even attempting to upgrade.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.

There is no such thing as "paying your dues" in this industry. Don't you know those guys at SWA are paying their dues to get to a real airline.

Crap in, crap out....it's as simple as that. If pinnacle has employees that can't pass upgrade rides, that is the total fault of the company. It represents a total breakdown in the hiring process.

 

[Lear70]

After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

I'm thinking about making that my signature line... That has to be one of the most "so stupid I can't believe someone wrote this in seriousness" posts I've ever seen on this board.

Can you please PM me your full name so I can make sure to send a copy of this thread over to SG if you ever, for some unGodly reason, obtain an interview at AirTran? They usually like to make sure their prospective applicants have some modicum of intelligence and understanding of command requirements.

Have you guys ever thought that the ORIGINAL reason for the upgrade minimums were that the company got tired of blowing $15,000 a pop on upgrade attempts with an 80% washout rate? Anyone remember what we saw when the CRJ's first came online and the company hired its first round of CRJ street CA's?

Hint: internal upgrades with no hard mins = 80% washout rate. Street CA hires with high total time and jet PIC time = <1% washout rate.

You remind me of the guy who blames everyone but himself when you pink your checkride. Like the guy I watched roll the CRJ sim upside down and crash on a V1 cut he KNEW was coming during a checkride while I'm over there yelling "RUDDER!" at the guy until the check airman hit me on the arm and told me to shut up.

After the screen goes red, he looked back at the check airman and said, "What happened?" After the check actually explained it to him he asked, "Can I do it again?" The check looked at me like, "Did this guy just actually ask me those two questions together?" This after he'd already had 3 attempts before he got his steep turns to standards. On an initial rate ride. He'd had all SORTS of latitude and blew it, then copped an attitude.

Needless to say he didn't pass that checkride and required 4 sim sessions before going back up to pass (barely). I would wager the majority of the busts fall into that attitude category.

The training department there isn't always stellar, but they're not bad enough to cause THOSE kinds of bust rates.

 

[Lear70]

Crap in, crap out....it's as simple as that. If pinnacle has employees that can't pass upgrade rides, that is the total fault of the company. It represents a total breakdown in the hiring process.

Holy Crap, we agree on something again.

Not that all the PCL pilots are crap, a LOT of them are great pilots and great people, but hiring 500 hour wunderkids and expecting all of them to be ready to upgrade at 3,000 hours just isn't going to work.

A FEW might be able to do it (if they have superior airmanship skills and paid a LOT of attention as an F/O), but most won't.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Hey just think, we need to pull in 700+ additional pukes to fly the rest of the dink jets NWA is getting. Anybody here see a problem with that?