9e Upgrade Mins.

[jc3]

So now that TM stood up to MGT and lost his job, do you think this new person will be a "yes man" and lower the Capt mins?

 

[PCL_128]

Our upgrade failure rate has been astronomical lately. Out of 8 people in the latest class, only 1 got through without failing an oral, checkride, or line check. Because of this, the FAA is already breathing down our necks. I doubt they'll react very kindly to a lowering of the upgrade mins.

 

[StuckMic]

Wouldn't you think the failure rate has little to do with a pilots total time and more to do with the training (or lack thereof) he receives? Having a total time requirement to upgrade that is greater than ATP minimums makes no sense.

 

[jc3]

Yeah, I heard that also, but doesn't that show how bad the training dept is and not the pilots.

 

[jc3]

You beat me to it Stuckmic

 

[Fly4hire]

Wouldn't you think the failure rate has little to do with a pilots total time and more to do with the training (or lack thereof) he receives? Having a total time requirement to upgrade that is greater than ATP minimums makes no sense.

The inexperience that statement reflects is exactly why they need higher minimums.

I would refuse to let anyone I care for fly on a airliner with a 1500 hr Captain and a 500 hr F/O. I suppose you think a bare bones ATP should be in command of a 747-400 as well? I think the upgrade failure rate reflects more than just thier training department. I think 3000 tt and a 1000 in type is pretty marginal already given the F/O experience levels as well.

It's not what you don't know that'll hurt you. It's what you do know that ain't so........

 

[jc3]

"It's not what you don't know that'll hurt you. It's what you do know that ain't so......."


Hmmm...........

 

[PCL_128]

Wouldn't you think the failure rate has little to do with a pilots total time and more to do with the training (or lack thereof) he receives?

Of course. The training department at PCL is abysmal at best. That doesn't change the FAA's perception, however. As long as they see a failure rate this high, there's no way they'll allow management to relax the upgrade mins. As I said, they're already breathing down our neck constantly.

Having a total time requirement to upgrade that is greater than ATP minimums makes no sense.

You can't be serious. You think it's safe to have a 1500 hour pilot with maybe 500-1000 in type in the left seat of a jet airliner with 50 paying passengers in the back? Sorry, but the last thing we need is another accident.

 

[DoinTime]

Yeah, I heard that also, but doesn't that show how bad the training dept is and not the pilots.

For all intensive purposes you cannot "teach" someone to be a captain. PCL could do a better job of teaching "book" knowledge but book knowledge has little to do with being a good captain.

The qualities of a good captain can be acheived one of two ways. Your either born with them or they must be aquired through extensive personal experience.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I'm not going to discuss the capabilities of the training department in this thread but I'll share some of the experiences that I have lived while training here at PCL. The attitudes of the individuals that are coming through is horrible, lets talk about that for a second. People feel that this whole regional industry is something that they have to give a minimal effort to before they get their call from SWA, FDX or whatever.
People are NOT putting the effort that an upgrade class deserves because this whole aviation gig has being too easy for them, their idea of "roughing it" was reserve on the RJ and I heard somebody in ops the other day talking about the SAAB being "Old School" because it has partial glass. The command authority, basic instrument skills, crew management and people skills are basically non existent. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those are requirements for command.
I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.
More than the training being deficient, I would argue that their lack of overall respect and dedication for this profession is a major contributor to the high upgrade failure rate.

Some people have 3000 hours, others have 1 hour repeated 3000 times. I'm done with the "low time" discussion because for me 5000/1000 PIC. should be the minimums for upgrade.

 

[Smarta$$]

I'm not going to discuss the capabilities of the training department in this thread but I'll share some of the experiences that I have lived while training here at PCL. The attitudes of the individuals that are coming through is horrible, lets talk about that for a second. People feel that this whole regional industry is something that they have to give a minimal effort to before they get their call from SWA, FDX or whatever.
People are NOT putting the effort that an upgrade class deserves because this whole aviation gig has being too easy for them, their idea of "roughing it" was reserve on the RJ and I heard somebody in ops the other day talking about the SAAB being "Old School" because it has partial glass. The command authority, basic instrument skills, crew management and people skills are basically non existent. I'm sure I've read somewhere that those are requirements for command.
I've had F/O's during OE asking me how junior the latest captain award went. "It will be nice if we get your approaches stabilized and your landings under control from the right seat before you start sending resumes to FedEx" I told him.
The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.
More than the training being deficient, I would argue that their lack of overall respect and dedication for this profession is a major contributor to the high upgrade failure rate.

Some people have 3000 hours, others have 1 hour repeated 3000 times. I'm done with the "low time" discussion because for me 5000/1000 PIC. should be the minimums for upgrade.

VERY good post.

 

[xjgearbtch]

amen dumb pilot. Saftey its NWA's priority.... when we have time to get around to it.

 

[StuckMic]

For all you guys out there that think a Captain needs 3000 or 5000 hours to upgrade, that's insane. There are many airlines, both regional and major, that only require ATP mins. to be Captain. If it was really that dangerous, we would be reading a story every week about how another plane crashed again because of a 1500 hour PIC. If a pilot can demonstrate his skills and decision making as Captain by passing a type ride, OE, Fed ride, line check, etc. then why not let him be Captain? I feel there are only 3 reasons why so many upgrades are failing at Pinnacle: (1) Poor training – this is definitely the largest factor (2) Bad attitude of applicant and general laziness (3) Lack of skills to be PIC - this includes stick skills and decision making ability. That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

 

[SELCAL checks]

Dumb Pilot summed it up well.

I am not too worried about upgrade minimums being lowered.

Why would they lower the mins and increase their insurance costs when there are currently upgrade candidates filling every vacancy with the present requirements?

The washout rate is so insanely high because the APDs are not allowing the bar to be lowered. The company can lower the mins, but the washout rate will just increase exponentially... along with the bill for wasted simulator time. It's very telling to me that these kids are failing orals and type rides in an airplane they have been flying for several years. Getting the type is the easiest part of upgrade.

The NTSB is about to release its final report on 3701, which will get much press. I don't think NWA/9E can afford a follow up story about how 9E just lowered the mins for new captains.

If all else fails, and 1500 hour wonder children make it to the line in the left seat... I will be terminated for refusing all 9E deadhead assignments.

 

[NuGuy]

That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

Wow! It's not even January 2nd yet, and we already have the winner for 2007's most inane post award.

FI never ceases to amaze me....

Nu

 

[DoinTime]

There are many airlines, both regional and major, that only require ATP mins. to be Captain. If it was really that dangerous, we would be reading a story every week about how another plane crashed again because of a 1500 hour PIC.

Most airlines don't need a minimum requirement because rarely does the seniority system allow upgrades with the applicant only having a short employment with the company.

If a pilot can demonstrate his skills and decision making as Captain by passing a type ride, OE, Fed ride, line check, etc. then why not let him be Captain?

A monkey could be trained to pass a type ride. OE and line checks are dependant on the conditions encountered when doing these events. Its not hard to show that you have "the right stuff" over a period of 25 hours of day VFR flying.

That’s it! After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

With this attitude alone you should be barred from even attempting to upgrade.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The simple truth is that the next generation of pilots that is going to the aviation schools that the regionals have become have no idea of what being a professional is all about. The last job they had before they became F/O's here envolved "Do you want fries with that order?" And that lack of overall experience about life in general, reflects in their attitudes of the industry owing them something, their attitudes of having paid my dues because I have flown a couple of thousand hours since my daddy paid for my training and their attitudes about all I'm here for is my thousand PIC.

There is no such thing as "paying your dues" in this industry. Don't you know those guys at SWA are paying their dues to get to a real airline.

Crap in, crap out....it's as simple as that. If pinnacle has employees that can't pass upgrade rides, that is the total fault of the company. It represents a total breakdown in the hiring process.

 

[Lear70]

After 1500 hours, total time has very little impact on a pilot’s ability to act as Captain.

I'm thinking about making that my signature line... That has to be one of the most "so stupid I can't believe someone wrote this in seriousness" posts I've ever seen on this board.

Can you please PM me your full name so I can make sure to send a copy of this thread over to SG if you ever, for some unGodly reason, obtain an interview at AirTran? They usually like to make sure their prospective applicants have some modicum of intelligence and understanding of command requirements.

Have you guys ever thought that the ORIGINAL reason for the upgrade minimums were that the company got tired of blowing $15,000 a pop on upgrade attempts with an 80% washout rate? Anyone remember what we saw when the CRJ's first came online and the company hired its first round of CRJ street CA's?

Hint: internal upgrades with no hard mins = 80% washout rate. Street CA hires with high total time and jet PIC time = <1% washout rate.

You remind me of the guy who blames everyone but himself when you pink your checkride. Like the guy I watched roll the CRJ sim upside down and crash on a V1 cut he KNEW was coming during a checkride while I'm over there yelling "RUDDER!" at the guy until the check airman hit me on the arm and told me to shut up.

After the screen goes red, he looked back at the check airman and said, "What happened?" After the check actually explained it to him he asked, "Can I do it again?" The check looked at me like, "Did this guy just actually ask me those two questions together?" This after he'd already had 3 attempts before he got his steep turns to standards. On an initial rate ride. He'd had all SORTS of latitude and blew it, then copped an attitude.

Needless to say he didn't pass that checkride and required 4 sim sessions before going back up to pass (barely). I would wager the majority of the busts fall into that attitude category.

The training department there isn't always stellar, but they're not bad enough to cause THOSE kinds of bust rates.

 

[Lear70]

Crap in, crap out....it's as simple as that. If pinnacle has employees that can't pass upgrade rides, that is the total fault of the company. It represents a total breakdown in the hiring process.

Holy Crap, we agree on something again.

Not that all the PCL pilots are crap, a LOT of them are great pilots and great people, but hiring 500 hour wunderkids and expecting all of them to be ready to upgrade at 3,000 hours just isn't going to work.

A FEW might be able to do it (if they have superior airmanship skills and paid a LOT of attention as an F/O), but most won't.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Hey just think, we need to pull in 700+ additional pukes to fly the rest of the dink jets NWA is getting. Anybody here see a problem with that?

 

[DoinTime]

What is a "dink jet?"

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What is a "dink jet?"

add +y

 

[NuGuy]

Not that all the PCL pilots are crap, a LOT of them are great pilots and great people, but hiring 500 hour wunderkids and expecting all of them to be ready to upgrade at 3,000 hours just isn't going to work.

A FEW might be able to do it (if they have superior airmanship skills and paid a LOT of attention as an F/O), but most won't.

Heyas Lear,

My $0.02 on your comments...

I've been around for a couple of hiring cycles now (<1988). Since each lasts at least a couple of years, you can see the newbies cycle back and forth in their attitudes. Those that entered the scene during a downturn are very appriciative of ANY opportunity, while those who enter at the peak tend to be a whiney bunch (What? 1 year for an upgrade? Fly a turboprop? You must be joking!).

This latest batch of wannabes (say since about 2002 or so), though, has me really scratching my head. I don't know if it's something about the type of people who get into flying these days or just a snapshot of the "current" generation. This batch tends to go past whiney, and is VERY agressive and argumentative whenever they don't get something they think they "should" have. This upgrade argument is a prime example.

There is also no appriciation of the art of flying, history of the industry, listening to some sage advice from someone more experienced or heck, even something outside their little sphere...everything is simply another box to be checked or hurdle to be jumped, rather than appriciating it for what it is. THIS I blame squarely on the school systems these days, where all they seem to teach is how to game the standardized tests or the college application process.

My nephew is in the process of applying to college. He listed about 10-12 activities...all over the map. I asked him if he really cared about any of them, and he told me flat out "no". I asked him why he didn't do one or two things honestly that interested him, and said that "it wouldn't count for anything". So there you have it...raising a whole generation to fake interest.

Nu

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Don't forget our latest round of street captains... that was a greater than 80% fail rate.

I was the first upgrade class after the street captains stopped- we had a 100% pass rate.

I hear the fail rate has gone up considerably since then, though. 1800 hour captains is just a bad idea on a CRJ. I will make sure my family doesn't ride on our airplanes if that does begin happening.

 

[NuGuy]

Don't forget our latest round of street captains... that was a greater than 80% fail rate.

I was the first upgrade class after the street captains stopped- we had a 100% pass rate.

I hear the fail rate has gone up considerably since then, though. 1800 hour captains is just a bad idea on a CRJ. I will make sure my family doesn't ride on our airplanes if that does begin happening.

Heyas PCRJ,

Yea, trying the street captain thing can be a REALLY bad deal depending on the curcumstances.

Assume you are average Joe with some time that would make you an acceptable captain candidate, say 4000+ tt, lots of multi, lots of turbine with some previous PIC.

Now you have to run the gauntlet of basic indoc, sim training in a new airplane, fitting in with new company/airplane procedures AND dealing with instructors/checkairmen who are, no doubt, holding some kind of grudge because you are shorting the system.

That would be a tough nut for a pro who was really on their game who might already have some experience in the AC. Throw in someone with NO exposure to the aircraft or a "marginal" talent, and you can see why the bust rate is as high as it is.

Nu

 

[DoinTime]

add +y

I guess your to good to fly small jets huh? That is exactly the attitude that created this whole scope mess.

 

[JohnnyP]

....

Don't forget our latest round of street captains... that was a greater than 80% fail rate.

I was the first upgrade class after the street captains stopped- we had a 100% pass rate.

I hear the fail rate has gone up considerably since then, though. 1800 hour captains is just a bad idea on a CRJ. I will make sure my family doesn't ride on our airplanes if that does begin happening.

Ive seen things like this posted before, with respect to not letting their family ride on a certain flight because of the crews flight time.

My question is, how do you plan on making this choice? Are you guys going to go interview the captain during boarding, ask his hours/experience, then possibly actually get off the airplane, on xmas eve, on the last flight into your hometown, to go see your wife, that you havent seen in a week or so?

Come on guys, your going to board and catch that flight home, on xmas eve, even if the captain has only 2500TT.

 

[Lear70]

Come on guys, your going to board and catch that flight home, on xmas eve, even if the captain has only 2500TT.

If I can't sit in the jumpseat? Absolutely, I'll take UPS or FDX and be back in time to see the kids open their presents Christmas morning.

Case in point, one of AirTran's F/O's was sitting in the BACK of the Comair flight that crashed in LEX. The single best thing that could happen for safety is to allow CASS-approved jumpseaters to occupy the flight deck jumpseat regardless of whether the back is full.

When I was working at PCL I would actually check to see who was working the flight. Twice I sent my family on Continental or SWA instead of letting them fly with certain CA's.

There's a lot more major pilots who will find another way home rather than sit in the back of an RJ with an unknown crew in today's environment.

Similar with other regional airlines; I avoid Mesa and Freedom flights as well, somewhat just because I don't want to associate with an airline that employs people with such little moral fiber (yes, I know there are many fine people at those airlines, but also MANY people who were just looking for the quick upgrade and screwed over other airline's pilots).

Hey Peanuckle, hadn't heard about those guys. When did they get hired? The last round of street CA's I remember were hired in early '04 and had a very high pass rate. They hire a bunch more recently?

Might have something to do with a dwindling pool of available talent; most of the majors have recalled all the experienced guys, and the only guys with high PIC time are probably coming out of the Part 135 piston freight world. Taking one of those guys with high PIC and throwing him into the CRJ with a multi-crew environment in the 121 world are probably the only candidates left in the barrel until PCL raises the pay enough to attract quality applicants.

Pretty difficult transition.

Nu, good post. Difficult to tell, I don't understand the late-teen / early 20-something crowd anymore either. That's one of the reasons I like the idea of a college degree being a requirement; not just because they're smarter or better, although certainly more educated, but simply because having to go to college AND get your ratings AND get your flight experience makes you a more well-rounded and mature person (partly because of age) once you GET to that great job.

Certainly makes for a better month on the line with someone like that versus the spiky-hair, ipod-wearing, marginally-engaged 22 year old pilot who might have good stick skills but has no interest in that beautiful sunset, the incredible aurora borealis display further south than you normally ever see, or any other of the numerous joys of aviation that are the REASON I chose this profession.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Hehe.. hey I was 22 when I got hired! ...But had a 4 year degree and 1700 hours.


As far as the street captains, I was referring to the early 05 guys... that's when I upgraded. Well over 80% of those guys bombed one or more rides. I remember being in upgrade class and wondering what kind of retards we were hiring. I personally thought training was quite easy... new hire and upgrade. It's all what you put into it. The guys that made it seem to have done quite well, though.

 

[Grimper]

The disengaged spiky-hair F.O. is the collage grad. Glad your not the one doing the interviews.