787s for Delta? Huh? Rumor alert....

[~~~^~~~]

Well, actually, if I remember right, Delta benefitted the most from EAL'S demise. Interestingly enough, the ALPA President was a Delta Pilot, who should have called for a National Strike to stop Lorenzo and could have saved EAL. However, there was more to gain by sitting idly by. Peach Tree City, was an Eastern stronghold--after the shutdown, Delta pilots found cheap real estate available there.

The Eastern pilots walked out in support of their mechanics.

Under Lorenzo's tenure, Eastern was crippled by severe labor unrest. Asked to accept deep cuts in pay and benefits, Eastern's mechanics and ramp service employees, represented by the IAM (International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace Workers), walked out on March 4, 1989. A sympathy strike called by the pilots represented by ALPA (Air Line Pilots Assn.) and flight attendants represented by TWU (Transport Workers Union) effectively shut down the airline's domestic operations.

In your view of history ALPA should have called a "National Strike" at the demand of Charlie Bryan, a Machinist? What were the NWA pilots doing while their mechanics were out on strike? So you are saying even though you did not support your mechanics, ALPA should have called a "Nation Wide Strike" to support Eastern's?

I hate to bust your chops, but there are no comparisons between you and EAL.

Your MEC has taken a no win position. Their stated goal is to stop the merger. Everyone else is extending to you olive branches and invitations.

The rub is, that the "no win" solution can become a self fulfilling prophesy, with the greatest harm coming to you. Is it worth denying yourself $30 so someone else does not get $7? That is all that has been accomplished thus far.

I'm not trying to make you mad. I hope you and your leadership change your minds. Delta is a good place to work, you will like it here - and - as a matter of fact, you are going to be a Delta pilot, so you might as well figure out how to make the best of the opportunity.

 

[tblosser]

So you want to be furloughed? Because if we took DAL's last offer, 500 plus, for years.. Now, remember , we will be downed to 58 DC-9's by the end of 08. The MSP-ORD-DTW route alone needs approx 10 planes by itself, so I don't think you will see the rest parked anytime soon. Anderson was involved in the Re-configuration of the DC-9, so he knows that even with high gas, it's a good 100-125 seat plane. Let's hope the DAL boys and the senior NWA pilots don't give any more scope.

If the NWA pilots are brought up to the Delta work rules they are 500 pilots short just to cover their current flying. Combine this with a good no furlough clause and the future deliveries from both sides there should not be any furloughs. Baring another 9-11 type event

 

[PuffDriver]

Ira funny that nobody has any real information of substance about what has really transpired, yet everybody has already taken their "straw polls" and formed their opinion to string up the Delta pilots by the short hairs over something that they know next to nothing about. Then they start to quote history and bring up Eastern, and Pan Am, and Republic, and Orient.

Gnash, gnash, gnash. Management because of this stupidity running rampant amongst the "average line pilot. This is the guy who will go off about something in the contract before somebody points out to him that if he would actually READ the contract, he would know that it does indeed NOT say that.

All have crucified Moak, and portrayed NWA as the victims. Yet what HAS come out, and the sniff test, tell a very different story.

Hardline tactics are not going to work. Jump on the ALPA National board, and receive the same education that the NWA pilots are getting. Some of those guys were actually in on some of the action that took place. How many NWA guys "in the know" have shown up? None.

Think about it.

 

[ExAF]

Yep

I have many friends at most every major carrier, and my "straw polling" begs to differ. What your leadership has done is not sitting well with the average line guy at "Airline X". Then again, what do you care. After all, Mr. Moak has made it quite clear on many occasions (long before this merger started to gain traction) that he doesn't care one bit what anybody else at another ALPA carrier thinks of his leadership and decisions. Fair enough, but lots of people out there won't forget this. Will it make a difference? Probably not. Just realize that, from now on when you're walking through the terminal and another ALPA pilot is staring at you, they're probably not admiring the bright shiny buttons on your uniform coat and wishing, "Oh, if only I were fortunate enough to be a Delta pilot."

In my opinion, if Prater had any balls and if this union was actually a union instead of a "gentleman's club", he would cut you guys off at the knees and refuse to sign off on LOA 19. Won't happen in a million years, but it should.... And everybody out there who wears an ALPA pin and a single-breasted blazer understands that.

Spare me your "We need to work together rhetoric." You and your ilk have no desire for us to work together. "We need to work together" roughly translates into, "We think we negotiated the upper hand by sticking a knife in your back, so accept the lot that we give you and quit whining." Ain't gonna happen. You came to the table with a proposal that was unacceptable to us. Then, after you had more or less locked up a back-door deal with your management that you think gives you the upper hand, you come back to the table with a worse deal and expect us to fall all over ourselves to take it "while the gettin's good." You have brought nothing more than a pitifully weak argument to the seniority list integration table. While I admire your leadership's desire to bolster their weak negotiating position and look out for their own pilots, their strategy of resorting to "back door deals" just kind of makes me sick, and by my take it kind of makes most everybody else that wears an ALPA pin to work sick as well.

After growing weary of the ilk on FI, I took a "vacation"'t for a while and haven't participated in any of the BS tha't been flying here. However; this post is right on and accurately reflects the feelings of all of my friends at various airlines (except for some, but not all at DAL). From where I sit NWA pilots are under the bus and watching as the bus prepares to throw it in reverse! I could go on, but, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Truckdriver]

From where I sit NWA pilots are under the bus and watching as the bus prepares to throw it in reverse! I could go on, but, I'll leave it at that.

They didn't get thrown under the bus, they saw a "bus only" lane, crawled out into it, laid down, and the bus ran over them. Now they have the chance to get out of the lane, but it looks like they might just lay around for the next bus to come along.

 

[LandGreen]

After growing weary of the ilk on FI, I took a "vacation"'t for a while and haven't participated in any of the BS tha't been flying here. However; this post is right on and accurately reflects the feelings of all of my friends at various airlines (except for some, but not all at DAL). From where I sit NWA pilots are under the bus and watching as the bus prepares to throw it in reverse! I could go on, but, I'll leave it at that.

Sounds like you weren't the only one taking a vacation during a relatively "important" sequence of events! I hope the NWA MEC is well-rested now, and ready to accomplish something for its membership.

 

[NuGuy]

Ira funny that nobody has any real information of substance about what has really transpired, yet everybody has already taken their "straw polls" and formed their opinion to string up the Delta pilots by the short hairs over something that they know next to nothing about. Then they start to quote history and bring up Eastern, and Pan Am, and Republic, and Orient.

All have crucified Moak, and portrayed NWA as the victims. Yet what HAS come out, and the sniff test, tell a very different story.
.

Sorry Puff,

But the DAL guys at the ALPA national board are just the same guys here, only with their real names. They stick to their same old "talking points" that they spew here.

You are right about one thing...the sniff check. Sure, all of the senior guys on the NWA MEC, the NC and the MC, who in the past have NEVER failed to look out for themselves and the other senior pilots, simply walked away from a pile of cash, raises, "better" work rules and all they had to do is sign a "fair" SLI.

Puhleese. Record yourself saying that and play it back, JUST so you can hear yourself saying that.

The truth of the matter is the final DAL position, NOT the final NWA position, would have had 10-15 year NWA pilots losing THOUSANDS of numbers in seniority, with 15-20 percent changes in relative position AND would have stapled over 800 NWA pilots to the bottom.

THIS is the reason the DAL guys wanted so desperately to avoid arbitration. They would have been laughed right out of the office.

Let me ask you...do you consider this fair? Would YOU have signed this agreement?

But go ahead, try your little "delay game"...see how well it works. In the meantime, all of ALPA is watching, thinking "man, someone could do the same to us". If I were Prater, I'd be worried about other card drives, not to mention my job.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

deleted

 

[NYRANGERS]

Sorry Puff,


The truth of the matter is the final DAL position, NOT the final NWA position, would have had 10-15 year NWA pilots losing THOUSANDS of numbers in seniority, with 15-20 percent changes in relative position AND would have stapled over 800 NWA pilots to the bottom.

THIS is the reason the DAL guys wanted so desperately to avoid arbitration. They would have been laughed right out of the office.

Let me ask you...do you consider this fair? Would YOU have signed this agreement?

But go ahead, try your little "delay game"...see how well it works. In the meantime, all of ALPA is watching, thinking "man, someone could do the same to us". If I were Prater, I'd be worried about other card drives, not to mention my job.

Nu

Yea, that sounds about right. Considering what you guys bring to the table (contract wise), I imagine this is what arbitration will look like for you guys. We should try to come to an agreement with regards to SLI...as soon as possible, so that in Jan.09 both NWA and DAL can get an equity stake in the company. If we can't do that..I say we go to arbitration soon. My guess is the senior NWA guys do alright, but the junior NWA guys will not like what happens. I hope we can work out the best deal possible for all. Obviously many will not like it, but it would be good for our new company and contract. Otherwise if we are going to hate eachother anyway...why not start now. As a Delta pilot, if arbitration is on the way, I like our chances....just look at what we each bring to the table (contract wise) and see who gains, and who doesn't. Then look at the arbitration that took place at US Air.

 

[Cobra17]

It's nice for one MEC to tell another what is a good deal and in their best interest....I thought that was management's job.

Hypothetically, let's swap DAL with NWA in regards to all the events leading up to and including the current state of negotiations. If you were now in NWA's shoes, does this deal still look like it's in your best interest.

Anyways, who established a 2 week timeline? Management?

 

[PuffDriver]

Sorry Puff,

But the DAL guys at the ALPA national board are just the same guys here, only with their real names. They stick to their same old "talking points" that they spew here.

You are right about one thing...the sniff check. Sure, all of the senior guys on the NWA MEC, the NC and the MC, who in the past have NEVER failed to look out for themselves and the other senior pilots, simply walked away from a pile of cash, raises, "better" work rules and all they had to do is sign a "fair" SLI.

Puhleese. Record yourself saying that and play it back, JUST so you can hear yourself saying that.

The truth of the matter is the final DAL position, NOT the final NWA position, would have had 10-15 year NWA pilots losing THOUSANDS of numbers in seniority, with 15-20 percent changes in relative position AND would have stapled over 800 NWA pilots to the bottom.

THIS is the reason the DAL guys wanted so desperately to avoid arbitration. They would have been laughed right out of the office.

Let me ask you...do you consider this fair? Would YOU have signed this agreement?

But go ahead, try your little "delay game"...see how well it works. In the meantime, all of ALPA is watching, thinking "man, someone could do the same to us". If I were Prater, I'd be worried about other card drives, not to mention my job.

Nu

More "average line pilot" stupidity.

In a nutshell:

the nwa position was unreasonable

the delta position was not

the delta mec is opposed to arbitration

the nwa mec should be opposed to arbitration

if arbitration is indeed in the cards, it will be forced via merger policy

the integration date will be somewhere in the vicinity of 1-2 years

the landscape of both companies will be very different by then

time is not on the nwa side, they know it, hence the reason for the expedited arbitration request, if that is not trying to use your leverage to screw your union brother I don't know what is


thems the facts, I would suggest getting your guys to the table with some opened minds, otherwise the future looks bleak, you are going to take a hit in seniority, so am I. Some will take more than others. Quite honestly, I think that relative position is fair, and I think that DOH is fair. It's a shame that ALPA policy is that we have to fight it out rather than have it already decided in B&W.

I have heard the -400 displacement bid is out. True?

 

[qxdash8]

Does anyone know why the NWA MEC didn't negotiate their own LOA with NW mgmt? Dalpa saw the writing on the wall - the merger was going to happen with or without the pilots. So, after talks broke down with the NW pilots (for whatever reason) Dalpa made its own deal to protect its own pilots - isn't that what a union is supposed to do?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

I have heard the -400 displacement bid is out. True?

Untrue.

 

[Superpilot92]

Does anyone know why the NWA MEC didn't negotiate their own LOA with NW mgmt? Dalpa saw the writing on the wall - the merger was going to happen with or without the pilots. So, after talks broke down with the NW pilots (for whatever reason) Dalpa made its own deal to protect its own pilots - isn't that what a union is supposed to do?

Which mgmt team should we have negotiated with? Why would we do that as apposed to working with our fellow alpa members? Both MECs had a negotiated contract but hadnt agreed upon the sli. Why did DALALPA go to mgmt and leave the NWA pilots out of it only to agree to less than the original amount? They could have done that and made it contingent upon the agreement of the SLI if it was in the best interest of both pilot groups. The way this took place did nothing but divide the pilot groups and hopefully it hasnt divided us to much.

 

[Cobra17]

Does anyone know why the NWA MEC didn't negotiate their own LOA with NW mgmt? Dalpa saw the writing on the wall - the merger was going to happen with or without the pilots. So, after talks broke down with the NW pilots (for whatever reason) Dalpa made its own deal to protect its own pilots - isn't that what a union is supposed to do?

Delta has Anderson who, on the surface at least, is looking out for his employees and is trying to negotiate the best deal he can to protect them. This is good, although one has to wonder how much concern he has for the welfare of his former (and possibly future) employees at NWA.

NWA has Steenland, who also places a high value on his employees. In fact, I'm confident that during these negotiations he is trying to extract as much compensation (for himself) as he possibly can in exchange for each one he throws under the bus.

This is the same d*****bag who raped his employees pensions and salaries then rewarded himself with $26M in bonuses. He was unavailable for comment as he was being canonized by the Pope today.