767 drivers... here's a rare pic

[skiandsurf]

While what you say about PAs is true at AA,

The whole PA issue at AA has always eluded me.

The FOs PA at AA...

"Ladies and gentleman please remain seated until the captain has turned off the seatbelt sign, flight attendants prepare for arrival and crosscheck".

There you have it. The FOs do talk on the PA.

 

[aa73]

The FOs PA at AA...

"Ladies and gentleman please remain seated until the captain has turned off the seatbelt sign, flight attendants prepare for arrival and crosscheck".

There you have it. The FOs do talk on the PA.

Bingo! And even that PA is a pain in the a$$ as we should even be worried about making a PA when the aircraft is approaching the gate at that point, what with all the ground equipment so close by.

In fact, at all other airlines that is an F/A PA, made when the seat belt sign is turned off.

 

[JvW]

I remember that Ansett was unable to sell those aircraft to anybody else because of the extra seat...same problem encountered by Saudi with their MD90s (different cockpit layout compared to other operators).
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the B737 supposed to have a flight engineer position as well and United was preparing a class for it??

JvW

 

[skiandsurf]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the B737 supposed to have a flight engineer position as well and United was preparing a class for it??

JvW

When UAL first started flying the 737s, they did have a "flight engineer" sitting in the jumpseat. This was in the late 60s, and not sure how long they kept them.

 

[ERfly]

When UAL first started flying the 737s, they did have a "flight engineer" sitting in the jumpseat. This was in the late 60s, and not sure how long they kept them.

I think they had engineers on the 737 until the late 70s or early 80s.

Wien had engineers on the 737, too.

 

[bubbers44]

The reason AA captains usually make the PA's is they need to know all required safety items were covered like keeping your seat belts fastened at all times while seated even if the seat belt sign is off. That way they know if a month later somebody files a law suit because they got beat up in turbulence you know what was said. If the FO did it you couldn't say for sure. Most FO's don't like making PA's, I didn't, so when I had to do them I sometimes forgot things because it wasn't a routine. As a captain I had a routine.

 

[glasspilot1]

The reason AA captains usually make the PA's is ......... If the FO did it you couldn't say for sure. Most FO's don't like making PA's, I didn't, so when I had to do them I sometimes forgot things because it wasn't a routine. As a captain I had a routine.

Sorry, I don't agree. That's part of the philosophy most airlines follow that the F/O is just a Capt in training. You send the pilots (both CA's and F/O's) to school and you teach them.

At TWA (and I'm sure most of the others) if it was the F/O's leg (so he would be doing the PA's) and it got bumpy HE would make the PA and turn on the seat belt sign. Of course usually you might comment: "Hey, I'm going to seat them". CRM and all that.

As far as F/O's not like making PA's; that is part of preparing to upgrade some day! One less thing to get used to doing when you go to Captain school. Yes, if your company has a culture where the left seater does most of the PA's then yes, it would not be routine for the F/O. Again at my old airline it was normal for the F/O to make the PA's on his leg and we knew how to do it right. When you went to CA school it was a non-event.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

At TWA (and I'm sure most of the others) if it was the F/O's leg (so he would be doing the PA's) and it got bumpy HE would make the PA and turn on the seat belt sign. Of course usually you might comment: "Hey, I'm going to seat them". CRM and all that.

As far as F/O's not like making PA's; that is part of preparing to upgrade some day!

That is they way we do it in the ANA group, the PF (cap or FO) does the duty of PIC although the official PIC is the captain of course. When it is my sector, I introduce the F/O on the flight as "I'm xxx your pilot in command and joining me in the flight deck today is Captain xxx (even if he is an F/O) the way I feel is that there is no SIC training here, all pilots have to train in the left seat to the same standard and pass the same check ride for a P1 certificate, so if they have made it to the line here, they have earned it

 

[ForgedBlade]

Sounds similar to TWA where the F/O was being prepared to upgrade. The pilot flying made all the PA's.

We were amazed at AA, they don't trust the F/O to do anything. The Capt makes all PA's on all legs including the "Flight Attendants, Prepare for T/O" as he's taxing the aircraft. Every other airline in the world probably has the F/O make that PA!

Now all that is bizarre!

PA's are way over-rated - some pilots just don't know when to shut up. Let the FA's do the bulk of them...

 

[CA1900]

And for f--k's sake, stop using the PA to sell credit cards!

 

[aa73]

Sorry, I don't agree. That's part of the philosophy most airlines follow that the F/O is just a Capt in training. You send the pilots (both CA's and F/O's) to school and you teach them.

At TWA (and I'm sure most of the others) if it was the F/O's leg (so he would be doing the PA's) and it got bumpy HE would make the PA and turn on the seat belt sign. Of course usually you might comment: "Hey, I'm going to seat them". CRM and all that.

As far as F/O's not like making PA's; that is part of preparing to upgrade some day! One less thing to get used to doing when you go to Captain school. Yes, if your company has a culture where the left seater does most of the PA's then yes, it would not be routine for the F/O. Again at my old airline it was normal for the F/O to make the PA's on his leg and we knew how to do it right. When you went to CA school it was a non-event.

Your logic is understandable but you fail to realize two things:

1) AA F/Os currently have at least a 20 year upgrade from newhire to CA so nobody is in any rush to "practice CA stuff." That said, when an F/O is within a couple years of upgrading, most CAs will actively encourage them to start practicing stuff such as PAs and other CA duties

2) AA has a culture very heavy in ancestral worship. To get the flight dept to change a procedure that has been done the same way for fifty years is next to impossible. The PA is just one of those things - AA deems it more important for the pax to hear from the CA, always has. We F/Os don't take it personally, and we just don't get why making a PA is sooooo important in practicing to make CA. Last time I made one it was almost anticlimatic. Big deal. I'd rather not make them, one less thing to have to worry about. We get plenty of practice playing CA on our legs, anyway.

 

[Colonel Savage]

I think they had engineers on the 737 until the late 70s or early 80s.

Wien had engineers on the 737, too.

Back in the late 70's, I remember seeing a technical drawing of a proposed cockpit floorplan for the then newly designed MD-80. It included a full flight engineer station, with seat and table, and a separate jumpseat for the cockpit observer. Guess it got rejected.

 

[glasspilot1]

Back in the late 70's, I remember seeing a technical drawing of a proposed cockpit floorplan for the then newly designed MD-80. It included a full flight engineer station, with seat and table, and a separate jumpseat for the cockpit observer. Guess it got rejected.

Boy, I sure wish that had gone through! Why? The cockpit of all the DC-9 series is the tiniest POS I ever had to suffer through. If they had stretched it for an engineer (then of course done away with the engineer) then it would have been livable, ie, enough space for crew bags, being able to move the seats back far enough to ACTUALLY GET OUT of them with out hitting your head on the overhead! OK, I'll stop bitching about the Mad Dog!