737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[Typhoon1244]

I need somebody to clear something up for me: when a pilot who already has a 737 type gets hired by SWA, what training "shortcuts" do they get versus a guy who gets hired by, say, Delta and goes into the right seat of the 7-3? In other words, whatss the advantage to SWA management of requiring the type rating when you walk in the door?

 

[mar]

A fair question

I don't have a good answer for your question.

Also, I happen to consider myself a fairly militant anti-PFTer, but I don't consider SWA to be PFT. Here's why:

PFT is when you pay the company for company specific training that they must provide and won't do you any good anywhere else.

A 737 type is *not* company specific and you can take it to almost any other employer and it would be just as good.

They just happen to require a 737 type as some companies require an ATP.

Who knows why they require it? Maybe their training program is based on type rated pilots--maybe they get an insurance break--anybody have a better answer?

 

[uwochris]

... maybe it's because they save lots of money. SWA is very good at being an LCC. Whether requiring a type rating is *ethical* as opposed to the company paying for the training, I'm sure the airline is saving lots of money in doing so.

 

[publisher]

reasons

There could be a number of reasons.

One of the reasons that many majors required college degrees was to show that you had the discipline to study at a high level and complte and comprehend the work.

A 737 type rating indicates you are ready to operate that equipment and will succeed in their porgram. Wash outs cost money and they are being efficient like they always are.

This is no different than requiring a multi engine instrumant commercial with a lear rating for a corporate job.

If you can get the desired candidates without having to spend to type, why would a company not do that.

 

[publisher]

reasons

There could be a number of reasons.

One of the reasons that many majors required college degrees was to show that you had the discipline to study at a high level and complte and comprehend the work.

A 737 type rating indicates you are ready to operate that equipment and will succeed in their porgram. Wash outs cost money and they are being efficient like they always are.

This is no different than requiring a multi engine instrumant commercial with a lear rating for a corporate job.

If you can get the desired candidates without having to spend to type, why would a company not do that.

 

[bobbysamd]

737 Type v. P-F-T

I am as anti-P-F-T as they come, too. I agree one hundred percent with mar's differentiation between P-F-T and buying the 737 type. One other point to add is P-F-T must be available only from the company that requires it or a vendor to that company. There are a bunch of places that sell 737 types.

Of course, only a handful of companies require the type, with Southwest being the one which is most discussed.

Years ago, the 737 type was a requirement for interview at Southwest, but no sim ride was required at the interview. My guess was that it saved the company money on initial training, even though by regulation it still had to run through all new-hires through ground school, sim and flight training. I would second Publisher's opinion about the airline knowing it will get applicants with a good chance of succeeding in training - again, a cost-saving move.

Something else it does is save H.R. effort and money in screening applicants. Although Southwest says that anyone who meets its time and turbine mins can apply, as a practical matter only those who have the type know they have a real chance at an interview. So, only they will apply and Southwest H.R. will have few applications to chuck.

 

[Timebuilder]

Pub and I agree on this one.

I have missed out on two jobs because the other candidate(s) had Lear type ratings. At some point, I will likely get a type for myself (unless someone is willing to type me after hiring, which would be great) so that I can successfully compete with those pilots who are typed and have similar experience. I'll deduct the cost as professional training, and be ready to work for anyone who requires a type rating, not just one specific employer as in PFT.

 

[BigFlyr]

I need somebody to clear something up for me: when a pilot who already has a 737 type gets hired by SWA, what training "shortcuts" do they get versus a guy who gets hired by, say, Delta...

Easy... SWA saves $$$ by not having to schedule a checkride with the Feds when the FO is due for upgrade. Just in house training and check-ride and you're in the left seat.

Nothing against SWA but they are the pioneers of PFT and the no frills "cheap-skate" airline, so IMO its all about the $$$ baby! Furthermore, since they already require applicants to have 1000 PIC turbine plus three letters of rec. attesting to flying skills, they know d@mn-well you'll be able to fly a 737.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: reasons

One of the reasons that many majors required college degrees was to show that you had the discipline to study at a high level and complte and comprehend the work.

If that were true, then it shouldn't matter what equipment you have a type rating for. I could demonstrate how disciplined I am by getting typed in anything, couldn't I?

Unless somebody can assert that SWA's training department saves absolutely no time or money by dealing with pre-typed pilots, I gotta go with uwochris and BigFlyr on this one...I'm forced to conclude that this is a form of PFT.

 

[chperplt]

PFT or not, It's simple.. Don't like it... Don't apply

 

[Timebuilder]

PFT:

1) You pay money to a specific carrier in order to fly for that specific carrier.

2) You take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competent pilot, who is paid a wage as a cost of doing business, not from the money he paid in.

Southwest no doubt saves money by hiring typed pilots who are then trained in the Southwest operation. The many Lear operators (Citation, Hawker, Falcon, G-IV, etc) who want to look at only typed candidates are doing the same thing.

Types are good at any operator. PFT money is spent only at one.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Re: reasons

Unless somebody can assert that SWA's training department saves absolutely no time or money by dealing with pre-typed pilots, I gotta go with uwochris and BigFlyr on this one...I'm forced to conclude that this is a form of PFT.

Bad conclusion.

Sorry my friend but we gotta part ways on this one. SWA still has to send them thru training, and the applicant does NOT pay for that, SWA does.

It is a requirement for hire that is all. Just like 1000 turbine PIC, or a college degree, or a nose ring, or whatever. It is just a criteria. No one said you had to pay for the type, you could get it from Vanguard, or AWA, or United, or Delta, or Continental, or Uncle Sam. If you don't have it, then you are free to pay for it. You are NOT paying for SWA to train you.

SWA in not PFT.

That being said, draw your conclusions folks, and call it what you like. It is still the best darn airline in the world...period.

My question is who gives a $hit? PFT is a dead rotting corpse of a horse that continues to get beat. I don't agree with it, nor support it, but in the tough economic climate we are in, I'd bet the farm it comes back at some companies. Pilot jobs are a seller's market. If it does, it will go like this:

Some will do it, because they can afford it (lucky), some will do it even though they can't afford it (smart), some won't do it because they can't afford it (unfortunate), some won't do it because they don't beleive in it(pricipled, but who ever got ahead in aviation on their principles), and then there are those who won't do it because they can't afford it, but will spend the rest of their live's sitting on their imaginary high horse, telling anyone who will listen to how they didn't do it because of their strong moral fiber and helped bring the PFT henchmen of mgt to their knees and ridded the world of a terrible evil (bull$hitters).

Just like the 90's. It is what it is. Do what is right for you, and go on about your business. Some like it, some don't. Who cares???

BTW, if any of you disagree or are repulsed by SWA policy, GREAT!!! Don't apply. That is one less pilot that I have to compete with for my dream job.

 

[w8n4swa]

Southwest hires Captains. They hire with the intent of the new hire to be a captain someday. Having the type rating assures SWA this pilot is Captain qualified.

Also, I've been told the insurance costs less with 2 qualified Captains in the Cockpit versus one.

 

[BigFlyr]

Southwest hires Captains.
Also, I've been told the insurance costs less with 2 qualified Captains in the Cockpit versus one.

All airlines have the same "we only hire captains" shpeel... The fact that SWA saves money by hiring 737 typed guys reinforces what I said before... Its all about the $$$ baby!!! And yes we ALL know that SWA has to train their pilots regardless of typed or not BUT they save on the EXTRA ck-ride they would have gotten with the FEDS at time for upgrade.

THAT BEING SAID... I would still love to work for SWA!!!

 

[RJones]

BigFlyr,

Explain to me how it saves them "$$$" on the checkride. I would assume that when an FO is ready for upgrade to Captain s/he, or rather the company, has an option. 1.) Use the FAA at no charge during the upgrade. 2.) Use a company designated examiner. Since it can be done in the simulator these days, and SWA owns them, it's little or now cost even if they had to call in a designated examiner off the street, what's that cost, $250-$300. I would assume that they would have a company designated examiner in the training department.

Please elaborate on the cost break down if you will. I don't see how it saves them that much. My opinion is that it's a weeding out process and shows them just how much your desire is to work for them.

RJ

 

[Vik]

SWA requiring a 737 type is not PFT.

Polar Air is looking for FOs and their ad says, "747 type preferred" or something to that effect. They might as well say required because thats what is going to get you the job.

SWA is not PFT because you are not guaranteed an interview by buying a type rating. When you PFT w/ NW Airlink for example, your check guarantees you an interview (and most likely a seat for training).

SWA also doesn't tell you to go buy a type. They require one.

So if UAL says they require a 4 year degree, does that make them PFT because you might have to BUY a degree?

 

[BigFlyr]

BigFlyr,

Explain to me how it saves them "$$$" on the checkride.

Please elaborate on the cost break down if you will. I don't see how it saves them that much. My opinion is that it's a weeding out process and shows them just how much your desire is to work for them.

Ok...Now I'm not an Airline Manager or CFO or anything like that. If I were I wouldn't be wasting my time on this forum. I may be wrong but I would think that if SWA can spare the simulator session required for the 737 type rating then they are saving money whether they own the sims or or not. Not only do they save on the session but they save on paying the instructor and the guy that would be flying support. Multiply that times the number of captain upgrades at SWA in a year and it probably adds up to a subtantial amount of $$$!

As for the weeding-out process is concerned... Give me a break! The 737 type is probably the easiest one, IMHO, that you can buy(didn't buy mine and proud of it).

Years ago, the "real airlines" didn't require ATPs and Type Ratings because their pilots would get them as they upgraded to Captain. It was all in the cost of doing business.

All that said, I think SWA is a great airline and has set the standard for efficiency. The "real airlines" (and you know who you are) will have to restructure to compete.

 

[dogg]

I have a question for all of you in the know? In the heyday of Flight Safety's Bridge programs, if you went through one and spent your 12,000.00 and got your interview and were not hired, would you have been more competitive at a non bridge airline(assuming you did the brasilia training which I believe was the bulk of the bridge programs)? In other words if Co-Ex or ComAir did not hire you, do you think that you would have had a leg up at SkyWest?
Suppose instead of the program being tailored to a specific carrier, it was simply a EMB-120 or a SF-340 type rating program with generic 121 profiles. And in order to be hired at SkyWest or ASA or Express Airlines 1 you had to have a type. What would we have called it back then....hmm........

 

[jetdriven]

in the book "nuts" it explains how SWa wants pilots to have an investment in their career at SWA. If an applicant was to spend 10 grand to get an interview then they were commited. This is in addition to the lower insurance, etc. Greatest carrier in the world guys.

 

[Vik]

As if all the sweat, blood, tears, poor wages, horrible employers and tens of thousands of dollars in flight training weren't an investment into the career to that point.

If someone tells me they want me to spend $10k to show that I am committed to my career, I'd beat the daylights out of them.

 

[mar]

You said it brother

Vik--I don't think I could've said it better. You have quite an enlightened perspective for a relative new-comer to this twisted industry.

Dogg--With all due respect my friend I don't think I get your drift. Would you mind explaining your position a little more for those of us that are up too late and may have indulged a little too much.

Peace all

 

[Saabslime]

Unlike true PFT programs, (Gulfstream, Pinnacle, etc.) SWA doesn't see a dime from you buying a 737 type so it's not profit motivated in any way. They couldn't care less how you get typed. Like others have said it's simply a job requirement if you want to work there.

 

[asacap]

I guess you could spin the PFT issue both ways quite easily. It seems to come down to wether or not you want to work there. If you do, then it's not PFT. If you don't, then it is. Bottom line is - you can't get the job if you don't pay. That's a fact. Go ahead and continue spinning.

 

[RJones]

What is Pay for Training? Well it's just what it says...that you are willing to provide personal credit for the training costs that are required by the FAA, either in advance/up front, or as in most cases you sign a contract that binds you to pay should you elect to leave prior to the date ending that contract.

The idea of Pay for Training is to eliminate turnover. What upsets everyone with this issue is that the FAA requires initial training and what are you going to do with that companies training should you leave, but yet you've paid for that training...or at least signed a contract that says you will should you leave. If you go to work for company A and they fly MD-80's, you quit and go to work for company Z that also flies MD-80's, are you going to get a pass on initial training? I think not, you have to go through it all over again. So it's not a marketable investment for anyone who does it.

Like the rest of you I don't like to see this stuff. Your strength is in what you bring to the table in the form of work you can provide to any company, not to provide credit for training. You have to think of yourself as a product your selling and stay away from buying yourself a job.

Let's take a look at Southwest and the 737-type rating requirement for employment. A few here feel it's a PFT, but I beg to differ. It's a requirement for employment just like the ATP is. Some commuters used to advertise commercial with ATP written, I haven't seen that in a while.

Requiring a type rating for a job is not new, most corporate and 135 charter outfits require them as well. Of the type ratings you see to the left one was purchased for me (CE500), this after six months on the job, one I studied on my own and took the plane to the FAA (CE650), and one I paid for as a pre-employment job requirement (B-737). The nice thing about these type ratings is that they are mine, you can't have them, I didn't sign any contracts binding me down, I am free go to another employer if I wish.

My point here, PFT (I regret to say I signed one but was able to get out of it, will never do that again) is not an investment...it's quicksand, why do it when you can't take the training to another company. The type, it's yours and nobody but the FAA can take it away from you...quite a distinction I think!

RJ

 

[asacap]

Hey RJONES,

Just a quick question, did you buy a 737 type? Please, just yes or no, no spin. Thanks.

 

[RJones]

yes

 

[Timebuilder]

for asacap

You might have missed this, above. I think it lacks any kind of spin:

PFT:

1) You pay money to a specific carrier in order to fly for that specific carrier.

2) You take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competant pilot, who is paid a wage as a cost of doing business, not from the money he paid in.

If I pay money to say, Gulfstream Academy, and take an FO position based on the money I just paid to said company, that would be PFT.

If I train for a type rating and take a checkride, I have armed myself with advanced training that is portable, good at any carrier. I will not be paid out of an account that I have just paid into, and I have not purchased the right to act as a required crewmember.

Wouldn't you say that these are factual differences?

 

[asacap]

RJONES,

Thanks for your reply and for your honesty. I wish there was no need to pay for training, but thats just the way it is sometimes. I would buy the 737 type also for a job at southwest also.

TIMEBUILDER

However, it is still PAYING money, to receive TRAINING on a Boeing 737 type in order to increase your chances of GETTING THE JOB. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. I believe you are still spinning the issue. It seems that you are drawing lines of distinction to make yourself look better than those who paid for a different type of PFT. Refer back to the first line of my response to you.

 

[Timebuilder]

tag, you're "it"

I PAID MONEY to get my multiengine TRAINING so I could get a JOB.

Does that make that PFT?

 

[TurboS7]

We are not hiring where I work at the present time. If we were here is the way it would work for the 737-800. If we had two compatable people they would have 6500TT, both military, either Navy or AirForce, and 4 year degrees. If one had a 737 and the other did not we all things even we would hire the one with the type. In most cases since we would be hiring more than one we would hire them both, the military being the next important issue, next the degree, then next previous 121 or 135jet experience.Nowadays it is impossible to get hired as we have ex-USair, United , and even American 737 guys current and qualified banging on the door begging for a job. It is tough out there and when UAL goes Chapter 11(they have already notifed United Express that they are going to do it) there will be a bunch more.