Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

70 buck a barrel oil matched by rising airfares...talk of rationing.

  • Thread starter Thread starter FN FAL
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 24

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
LOL great post. And to think for a while I was getting more optimistic. But lately I have seen so much bad news going on in country after country on their oil production.

Dang I really do need a beer now!

At www.theoildrum.com a member called westtexas has a great explanation of how the oil exports could decline at a faster rate than the decline of oil production. This is because the oil exporters will be increasing their own consumption in the future at the same time that their production is falling. He said it so well that it made sense to even me. We could be in for a ride competing with other countries like China for those last remaining oil exports of the world.

Bottom line is the price is going up, and we're gonna have to live with a lot less year over year really soon.....

Maybe even occassional severe turbulence??

Dang I need an ejection handle!

Jet
 
Last edited:
then four power-genrating plants shut down unexpectedly? Reminds me of the Motels song, "Suddenly, Last Summer".

HOUSTON (AP) -- Witheringly hot temperatures and an electricity shortage forced power utilities around Texas to conduct rolling blackouts for several hours Monday.

As temperatures climbed into the upper 90s - and even to triple digits - thousands of Texans found themselves without power as energy companies heeded an emergency call from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which runs the state's electricity grid. Police rushed to intersections to direct traffic during the afternoon rush hour.

As much as 15 percent of the state's power supply was already off-line for seasonal maintenance to brace for the summer's energy usage peaks. Then four power-generating plants shut down unexpectedly amid the stifling heat, said ERCOT spokesman Paul Wattles.

By Monday evening, with the help of the rolling blackouts, ERCOT said operations were back to normal.

Typical usage for Texas in April is about 40,000 megawatts a day, but the state peaked at 52,000 megawatts on Monday, Wattles said.

A recorded high of 101 degrees at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport broke the previous high of 94, set in 1913 and matched in 1925, according to the weather service. Temperatures reached 107 degrees in Laredo.

ERCOT said the rolling blackouts were needed because the power grid had to decrease its load by 1,000 megawatts on Monday.

A megawatt is enough electricity to power about 210 homes for a year.

"The good news is, (the blackouts) worked," Wattles said. "This prevents region-wide outages. It isolates the outages so a few people share the pain to avoid a region blackout like we had in the Northeast in 2003."

The rollouts were limited to the ERCOT grid, which provides electricity to about 80 percent of Texas.

Traffic backed up at intersections in Grand Prairie, just west of Dallas, and in Tyler in eastern Texas during the afternoon rush hour.

ERCOT urged customers around the state to curtail their electricity use.
The weather service said Texas should begin to see more normal temperatures in the 70s by midweek.
 
In the late 19th Century, our political leaders argued about gold and silver reserves. Presidential elections were decided by this debate. William Jennings Bryan argued in his "Cross of Gold Speech" that the farmer was the most vital element of society. 'Free silver is the cowbird of Populism.' What was a populist? Someone who believed in government controlled transportation and telegraph. Someone who believed that railroad companies had to give back the land they had purchased from the land owners on the plains. They believed in a progressive tax, Austrailian ballot (secret ballot), and a strategy of recall if 25% of registered voters signed a special petition, a special election would be held to decide if the elected official could keep his job or lose it to another official. They also believed in having a one term president. What does this tell us today? Bryan lost the election of 1896 because American's are inheirently business oriented and fundimentally dismiss the idea of government controlled business. Free enterprise and capitalism make this country great and will continue to do so. Rising oil prices are simply the result of a free market economy, not the conspiracy of governments trying to line their pockets.
How did the populists react to their loss of 1896. They assassinated McKinley at the Worlds Fair. Now, I don't know about you but I tend to think that killing a president is a big deal. This is an act of terrorism. It's a shame this event isn't taught any more in school. Perhaps more parables could be drawn from that event to compare to the events of today. The terrorists tried hard to get their way, but our system again showed how perfect it was and McKinley's VP, Teddy Roosevelt took the reigns and proceeded to take our country to heights that it had never imagined. We fought foreign wars in the Phillipeans, Cuba, Columbia and Panama. We delivered democracy to areas that had previously known only dictatorship or tyranny.
What is my point...it's simple. The rising of oil prices is not a conspiracy designed by greedy leaders bent on whirlpools and backrubs. Well sure, everyone is greedy. That is the nature of capitailism. What makes the system great is the desire to acheive greatness. If we were populists or democrats and we equalled the playing field, there would be no measure of greatness. The problem is that when these so-called equalizers don't get their way, they resort to terrorism, be it environmental or political. That is the ironic aspect of our country: we allow free expression in almost every sense, but when democracy doesn't work for a minority of the population, they feel it is right to resort to terror to acheive their causes.
The problem with the airline industry is reflected in this sentiment. Government intervention destroyed our industry in the '70's. The gold and silver industry was forced to mesh and create low cost, government controlled skies that bankrupted the system. Thank you Mr. Carter. It's a shame that a minority of Americans bankrupted our system then and continue to try and do so today. And while people cry and complain about the cost of oil, they do so knowing that airlines are forced to lose money every time they fly a plane because the government tells them that this is the way it has to be.
People, accept oil prices the way they are. This is the best result for capitalism...what you should be screaming about is the government controlled industries.
 
Last edited:
The person on my avatar is my girl Next Door Nikki. Do a search for her, you will find some very revealing photos of her on the net.
 
Thanks for the headsup of photos of her being on the web and that I can search for them.

I'll have to get right on that :) (in more than one way)

Jet
 
jetflyer said:
And to think for a while I was getting more optimistic. Jet
Move. Leave your state if it begins and ends with a vowel, is on the border with Mexico or Canada or is Missouri.

This week in the news:

Illinois Governor George Ryan faces 95 years in corruption conviction.

Canadian sneaks across border steals guns and uses Registered Sex Offender list to begin a vigilantism murder campaign.

Mexican border towns? Where do you start?

Oklahoma man kidnaps girl for murder, rape and acts of cannibalism.

Missouri Pork Institute offers students in-depth look at pork.

Indiana courts determine unmarried same sex couples can adopt.

Iowa mumps epidemic.

Utah school books the wrong Jon Stewart for annual gala.

Indiana a report shows that Indiana students lead the nation in being denied federal aid for college.

Ohio dad convicted in the syringe induced pregnancy of his step daughter.


It's not too late to save yourselves...move out while you can!








:eek: :nuts: :laugh:
 
This might interest those wondering if Saudi Arabia is past their peak oil.


These are the Saudi Arabia and OPEC production numbers for past months.
Oct 04: SA = 9.508 mbpd, Opec = 30,228mbpd
Nov 04: SA = 9.450 mbpd, Opec = 29,067 mbpd
Nov 05: SA = 9.458 mbpd, Opec = 29,965 mbpd
Feb 06: SA = 9.394 mbpd, Opec = 29,713 mbpd

Saudi Arabia has also been increasing the numbers of rigs this entire time and production as you see has still been declining. They say they are pumping at full capability right now as well. They say they're going to bring on new oil soon. They also say "Don't worry, We have enough oil to power the world for decades to come."

Looks like Matthew Simmons might have been correct about Saudi :( :0:bawling:

Jet
 
Last edited:
jetflyer said:
Oh and Danger read my sentence again. It was definitely poorly written, but what I meant was I don't see the next depression being deflationary but inflationary if we have one.

Adios,
Jet

Ok, thats cool. Then answer me this. Why would people flock to precious metals during anytype of depression?
 
Danger,
This time will be different because of the U.S.'s situation.

Inflation is the difference. A downturn will have inflation in the future.

Bernanke says he will allow inflation instead of deflation by printing money.

Peak Oil, Peak Gold, Peak Silver, Peak commodities. The world is simply reaching a max on how much there is to get out of the ground on everything.

The U.S. trade imbalance is over the critical 6% and this is unsustainable, the U.S. dollar has to eventually correct. This will cause inflation as the dollar falls in value and it takes more dollars to buy those Chinese goods or other imports.

Plus commodities are traded on world markets. If the U.S. dollar goes down then commodities essentially stay the same price and will go up. Plus people will try to hedge against inflation by getting into commodities. People don't want to lose wealth to inflation.

If the inflation is at 7% and the stock market returns 6% you lost money.

Plus if you look at how the CPI is figured now compared to how it was figured back in the early Clinton years then you'll see that we would now have about 7% inflation instead of the 3% they're publishing. The gov-a-mint changed how they figure inflation and it is bogus. They want inflation. They want it to make their debts smaller so the government doesn't go insolvent.

I will try to answer more later Danger gotta go back to work. I really think we'll see heavy inflation in the future. I will give a much better answer later.

Jet
 
Nice job JetFlyer! :cool: You saved me some effort!

Dangerkitty said:
Ok, thats cool. Then answer me this. Why would people flock to precious metals during anytype of depression?

Precious Metals are relatively stable. Over the past 100 years, it has had fewer
spikes and jumps. Also, it is a tangable item, you can hold it in your hands
unlike stock, which is really just paper if the company goes away the paper
is worthless, gold, is still gold. Precious Metals are also non-perishable. The
same cannot be said with pork bellys, OJ, wheat, etc.

As for my "moderate turbulance" comment. I'll stick to it. I like the analogy.
When Moderate Turbulance hits the airplane I'm in, I am usually prepared.
It's alittle uncomfortable, mabie even a bit inconvient. Now look at a
passenger on an airline. He/she doesn't know what's going on, is completely
unprepared, and will likely be walking or eating when it hits with spectacular
results.

Sames goes for this crisis. I'm prepared....more or less. or at least prepared
as possible. Many other industries are also making changes. I've seen more
than a few farmers change to bio-diesel, so it's not likely we'll starve. The
biggest problems are the lack of disposal income and the decrease in travel.
Think of a WWII like "Is This Trip Really Necessary!?" campain.

The USA is NOT going to die. It's going on a DIET. Look around you....
It really needs one...

CE
 
whaleroast said:
In the late 19th Century, our political leaders argued about gold and silver reserves. Presidential elections were decided by this debate. William Jennings Bryan argued in his "Cross of Gold Speech" that the farmer was the most vital element of society. 'Free silver is the cowbird of Populism.' What was a populist?

Trivia: The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was actually a political allegory of these times. The yellow brick road and the wizard of Oz (short for ounce) were references to the Gold Standard. Dorthy’s slippers, which were her salvation were the Silver Standard (the slippers were silver in the original, not ruby) The wicked Witch of the East represented east coast industrialists. The Cowardly Lion was Bryan.


whaleroast said:
Someone who believed in government controlled transportation and telegraph. Someone who believed that railroad companies had to give back the land they had purchased from the land owners on the plains. They believed in a progressive tax, Austrailian ballot (secret ballot), and a strategy of recall if 25% of registered voters signed a special petition, a special election would be held to decide if the elected official could keep his job or lose it to another official. They also believed in having a one term president.

Having recall votes is a bad thing? Sounds to me like a much needed tool to help politicians remember who they are working for.


whaleroast said:
Bryan lost the election of 1896 because American's are inheirently business oriented and fundimentally dismiss the idea of government controlled business. Free enterprise and capitalism make this country great and will continue to do so. Rising oil prices are simply the result of a free market economy, not the conspiracy of governments trying to line their pockets.

Actually, rising oil prices back then were a result of Rockfeller’s Standard Oil Trust, which was one of the events which lead to US anti trust legislation.


whaleroast said:
How did the populists react to their loss of 1896. They assassinated McKinley at the Worlds Fair. Now, I don't know about you but I tend to think that killing a president is a big deal. This is an act of terrorism. It's a shame this event isn't taught any more in school.

Huhhhhh????!!!! The guy who shot McKinley was an avowed Anarchist, which is at the opposite extreme from Populists who favor governmental controls on everything. Before becoming an Anarchist, he was registered as a Republican (McKinley was a Republican) You're just making this cr@p up, aren't you?


whaleroast said:
Teddy Roosevelt took the reigns and proceeded to take our country to heights that it had never imagined. We fought foreign wars in the Phillipeans, Cuba, Columbia and Panama. We delivered democracy to areas that had previously known only dictatorship or tyranny.

WTF???!!!!!????!!! What we delivered to those places was dictatorship and tyranny. You ever read the political history of Cuba? From the end of the Spanish American war it was one dictator after another, Right up to the current day. The only real change has been when Castro replaced US hegemony with Soviet hegemony. Sorry, when you look at the leaders the US has supported, and in many cases had a hand in installing by cover or overt means, there is very little of which to be proud.

whaleroast said:
The problem with the airline industry is reflected in this sentiment. Government intervention destroyed our industry in the '70's.

OK, you really don’t have any idea what happened to the airlines back then, do you? Whether or one believes that the events of the late 70’s destroyed the airline industry, the facts remain ; That was deregulation, not government intervention, but a withdrawal of government intervention. First you start out by complaining about populists favoring government control of transportation, they you say that the airlines were destroyed by deregulation, but you attempt to portray Deregulation as "government intervention" Good or bad, like it or not, the skies ar a lot less "government controlled" than they were in say, 1970. Isn’t that what you wanted?
 
A Squared said:
I'm in Alaska. where do you suggest I move, and more to the point, why?
You guys are the anomaly, you're state is kind of like Colorado, just more black flies and bears.
 
Interesting article below. Jubak's stock picks have been up 263% since inception. It validates at least what Jetflyer has been stating when it comes to Precious metals. I am however still leery of it.


Jubak's Journal
Why metals stocks haven't peakedTuesday, April 18, 2006Call the theory Peak Metal. The price of gold and other metals, and related stocks, will keep rising as finding new sources gets harder and more expensive.
Is it too late to buy into the boom in metals stocks -- everything from gold to silver to copper to iron to zinc? After all, flashy gold stock Goldcorp (GG, news, msgs) is up 130% or so in the last 52 weeks, and traditional, plodding copper stock Phelps Dodge (PD, news, msgs) isn't far behind, with a 90% return.

Or does the current boom in metals have longer to run, making this a good time to buy despite gains like these?

Investors looking to answer questions like those should take a clue from the boom in oil prices and particularly from a theory called Peak Oil. The analogy isn't perfect -- the commodity markets for metals are much smaller and much more speculative than the market for crude oil. But applying a theory that I'm calling "Peak Metal" argues that while short-run risks have risen recently, the boom in the prices of metals and metal stocks is a long, long way from over. Over the long term, the only thing likely to derail it, in fact, is a big slowdown in the global economy -- and therefore in global demand. And that doesn't look likely in either 2006 or 2007.

The supply squeeze at work
Peak Oil is a controversial theory that argues that, sometime soon, global oil production is due to hit a peak. After that point, no matter how much money oil companies spend on exploring for new oil and developing new reserves, global oil production won't go up. After a period of stagnant production, global production will indeed start to decline.

Most of the controversy about Peak Oil involves shouting matches about when -- if ever -- this peak will occur. Estimates range from now to 2008 to 2020 to never.

To me, predicting the date for peak production is an interesting parlor game. Given the immense ignorance we have about the true levels of production and reserves in major oil producers such as Saudi Arabia and Russia, I simply don't think it's possible to come up with a specific year.

But I find the mechanisms that Peak Oil theory has developed to explain the direction of oil prices and the operation of the oil market immediately applicable to the metals sector.

Here's how those mechanisms work for oil: As oil production moves toward the peak, oil also becomes harder to find. Discoveries are smaller and in less-accessible regions or geologic formations. And it costs more to produce the crude from these discoveries.

Producing oil from existing fields also gets more expensive: It's never possible to recover 100% of all the oil in a field, and recovering the last barrel of oil also requires more technology, more equipment, and more dollars than recovering the first barrel. Peak Oil theory also notes that extracting oil from a field damages the field by allowing water to infiltrate the oil pools, by leading to the collapse of rock or sand formations, and the like. That happens even if the oil producer has put adequate capital into the infrastructure of the field, which most oil producers haven't done over the last decade or two.

The price of oil rises as the peak approaches for both reasons.

It's at this stage that opponents of Peak Oil theory often object that Peak Oil doesn't take into account the effect of those higher prices on oil production. As oil prices go up, it becomes profitable to exploit oil deposits, such as Canada's huge oil sands reserves. And it becomes profitable to find substitutes for oil -- such as ethanol or bio-diesel. This postpones the day of Peak Oil, perhaps indefinitely.
But this counterargument, ironically, actually validates the key insight of Peak Oil. As the production peak approaches, the price of oil rises -- even as unconventional sources of oil and substitutions come to market -- because these new sources and substitutes are more expensive to produce than oil used to be. If they weren't, they would have been put into production during the days of cheap oil. In effect, the rise of oil prices in Peak Oil theory creates a price floor for these new sources. As the floor moves up -- to $40 oil from $30 oil, for example, and then to $60 oil -- new sources and substitutes become profitable. That slows the price rise predicted by Peak Oil. But it doesn't reverse it

Twin peaks?
Now look at the three similarities between Peak Oil and Peak Metal:
  • It’s becoming harder and harder to find significant new deposits of everything from gold to copper. Gold production in South Africa, traditionally the world’s biggest gold producer, is now just one-third of its peak because the country's deep underground mines are exhausted and mining companies haven't been able to find enough new gold deposits to make up the difference. Global gold production has actually tumbled as gold prices have spiked. After peaking in 2001 at 2,621 metric tons when gold sold for less than $260 an ounce, gold production fell in 2005 to under 2,500 tons.
  • When new deposits are discovered, they are in politically riskier countries. In gold and copper, that's meant replacing production from South Africa and the United States with production from Peru and Indonesia, for example.
  • Production costs are higher in newly discovered deposits. Part of that's a result of location: It's more expensive to produce copper if you have to build roads, railroads and ports from scratch in remote Indonesia than it is to produce copper from Arizona. And part of that is a result of the poorer quality of newly discovered deposits. Costs are rising at many gold-mining companies because the grade of ore -- the amount of gold per ton of rock -- is lower in newly discovered deposits than in older mines.
To those, I'd add these factors that could produce even sharper and more sustained price increases for Peak Metal than for Peak Oil.
  • Mining companies are even more conservative about adding new production than oil companies. Oil companies, initially hesitant to invest when oil hit $30 because they were worried that oil prices would fall back to $20 or less, have started to factor $30- or even $40-a-barrel oil into their long-term capital-spending plans. Mining companies, scarred by the boom-and-bust cycle of an industry that is even more cyclical than oil, are so far sticking by their pre-boom projections for the prices of their commodities. Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold (FCX, news, msgs), for example, recently reaffirmed its decision to use projected copper prices of 80 cents to 90 cents a pound in making its decisions on capital spending to increase production. "Metal prices, like all commodities ... are cyclical," CEO Richard Adkerson told the Financial Times this month, "and I don't see any reason to change the long-term planning price because prices are higher." Copper now trades at $2.70 a pound.
  • Oil producers have been able to exploit new technology to drill deeper, to force oil and gas out of stubborn geologic formations, and then bring vast new types of reserves -- oil sands and oil shale, for example -- into production. Nothing comparable has occurred in the metals sector. The last big technology shift -- from deep, underground shaft mining to vast, open-air pit mining -- is decades old. (The next big things -- genetically engineered bacteria and viruses that excrete metals from even the lowest grade deposits -- are now just smears on laboratory Petri dishes.)
All these Peak Metal factors make me want to rush out and add more metals stocks to my portfolio.

But one difference between the markets for oil and metals gives me pause: The commodity markets for metals are so much smaller than the commodity market for oil that it is much, much easier for speculative demand to drive up the price of gold, silver, copper, etc., than it is to drive up the price of oil
 
Part II

But one difference between the markets for oil and metals gives me pause: The commodity markets for metals are so much smaller than the commodity market for oil that it is much, much easier for speculative demand to drive up the price of gold, silver, copper, etc., than it is to drive up the price of oil

Not that the price of oil hasn't moved up and down as speculative cash has flooded in and out of the oil market. The price of a barrel of West Texas Intermediate hit an intraday high of $70.85 on Aug. 30, 2005, as traders bid up the price of oil on speculation that Hurricane Katrina -- which made landfall on Aug. 29 -- would shut down a significant part of oil production and refining in the Gulf of Mexico to drive up oil prices. On Nov. 1, the price was down to $58.30, despite Hurricane Rita's landfall on Sept. 24 and the damage it caused, as traders sold the storms. Despite crude inventories at high levels, oil prices have bounced back in the last two months, on speculation that something in Nigeria or Iran or Venezuela would disrupt supply. Crude oil in New York closed at $70.40 a barrel on Monday, its first close ever above $70.

But it took the anticipation of two huge hurricanes -- and then the passing of those storms -- plus the prospects of major geopolitical upheaval to produce a 10% to 15% swing in oil this year and last. In the much smaller gold and silver markets, all it takes is the launching of an ETF or two. First gold and now silver have been driven higher on the projected launch of funds that let retail investors buy the commodity. The launch of gold ETFs pushed gold prices up 12% in the 90 days before the ETFs were actually launched. (Prices fell 10% in the 90 days after trading in the ETFs began.) Silver is now going through the same process. Not surprising since Barclays Global Investors, the backer of the silver ETF, estimates that demand for its ETF will require it to buy 12% -- 130 million ounces -- of global silver demand.

Waiting for the metals to cool
So where do I come down?

Yes, in the long term I believe the metals boom will run for the rest of the decade -- or until a downturn in the global economy puts the kibosh on demand for all commodities. So, for the long term (or until the day of economic reckoning), I'd like to own shares of metals producers

And, yes, in the short term, I believe that flows of speculative cash have pushed the prices of all the metals, but especially silver and copper, to heights where they've become unglued from the positive long-term fundamentals. (Gold, the first choice of investors in any crisis, is as always a special case.) In the jargon of Wall Street, they're ahead of themselves. I wouldn't sell positions in this sector that I own -- the froth will get frothier over the next few months in the aftermath of copper strikes in Mexico and the election in Peru -- but I wouldn't add new positions just yet.

For that I'd wait for a sharp little correction. Nothing too big, mind you. But enough to take gold and silver off the front page of The Wall Street Journal for a while.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom