30 in 7 question

[apdsm]

If you are legal to start the day then you are legal to finish it.

As long as you stay on the original pairing. If you are rerouted, then it is recomputed.

 

[Towelie]

8 hours scheduled for a duty period is "legal to start legal to finish"

30/7, 100/month, 1000/year has to be calculated using the time that you've actually flown plus the time that you are scheduled to fly. It is calculated on a daily basis.

No, Carl. It is still "legal to start, legal to finish." It just doesn't take effect until the duty period that will put you over. But it is still legal to start, legal to finish.

Go read the regs.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Maybe this will help!

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/Projects/FTDT/FTDT_Guide_6-A_Jeppesen.pdf

 

["GO AROUND"]

At ASA the company and contract wont let scheduling schedule you for more than 27.5 in 7 days. This is a buffer for the 30/7. I don't believe the legal to start legal to finish has to do with the day, it's leg based. You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

 

[chperplt]

You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

It is truly scary how many people currently flying 121 don't have a clue what the regs say...


By the way.... what you wrote... WRONG

 

[cobalt]

excellent flyingdawg.... now... will anyone actually read it??? page 6 for good 30/7 examples.

 

[Lequip]

At ASA the company and contract wont let scheduling schedule you for more than 27.5 in 7 days. This is a buffer for the 30/7. I don't believe the legal to start legal to finish has to do with the day, it's leg based. You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

What an IDIOT. And this guy is a Captain. SCARY! Get a clue you dumba$$. You couldn't be more wrong. This is Indoc 101 crap that even the Gulfstream punks know.

 

[Skybound737]

Legal to start Legat to finish...period. not very complicated unless you mind f$ck it to death. Its about scheduling and duty times...not flight time.

 

[bluesideup1]

Here is the answer to the questions:




Yes legal to start legal to finish on the last duty day only. Exceed that on any day before and flying must be pulled. Usually for me crew scheduling would pull a nice round trip in the middle of my sequence rather than the end and leave me with multiple hours of airport appreciation time as I wait to rejoin my schedule.




The most frequently asked questions concerning the application of the yearly, monthly and
weekly flight time limitations are posed in the following examples:

Q-1. A flight crew member is scheduled to fly five hours per day for six days.
Prior to starting the schedule on the sixth day, the flight time has been
extended by two hours due to weather. Is the crewmember “legal” to begin
the last day’s scheduled flight knowing that he/she will exceed 30 hours of
flight time before completing the flight schedule?

A-1. No, the crewmember may not complete all of the scheduled flights
on the sixth day since he/she would be scheduled to exceed 30 hours
of flight within seven consecutive days. However, the crewmember
may fly a portion of the schedule up to 30 hours, or be rescheduled
to fly up to 30 hours, which in this example would allow the carrier
to schedule the crewmember for three hours of flight on the sixth
day.

Q-2. A flight crewmember is scheduled to fly five hours each day for six days
and has met the schedule for the first five days. During the first flight of this
series-of-flights on the sixth day the pilot exceeds his/her schedule by one
hour due to an ATC delay. Is the crewmember “legal” to complete the
schedule knowing that he/she will exceed the 30-hour flight time limit?

A-2. Yes. In this example when the crewmember began the last day of
the scheduled series-of-flights, he/she was legally scheduled and
could complete the flights and not exceed 30 hours. Because the
delay was caused by circumstances beyond the control of the air
carrier, FAR 121.471(g) provides the necessary relief to exceed 30
hours in this circumstance.



​

 

[PropsR4Boats]

The guys in OKC don't care about all the legal to start legal to finish what nots. If you have a documented exceedence your in trouble. What some of you are suggesting is that...Jan 1st I'm not scheduled to fly more than 1000 hours this year, in fact I've only got on month scheduled for 90 hrs. I must be legal to fly the rest of the year no matter what huh? So you flew 1500 hrs in a year? Try explaining that to the administrative judge in OKC. Don't go over 30/7 or 34/7 100/year 120/yr what ever part you fall under. Just some advice from the guys in OKC, take or leave it.

 

[udontwannaknow]

RJPilott and DoinTime are both correct. If you begin your day and are SCHEDULED to fly 29.9 hours in the previous 7 days, and for some reason go over block during ANY of your legs that day, you are still LEGAL to finish flying that day. So in essence, your buddy is the correct one. I wish that I could have been taken off legs the last day for all the times that I have been over block with 30/7 problems, but it doesn't happen that way!

you shouldn't be scheduled over 27.5 if you are then you can get whatever removed.
and if you start your day and then it gets extended for any reason but scheduling then you are legal to start legal to finish.
however in reality everything is b/c of crappy scheduling in the company.

 

[Towelie]

The guys in OKC don't care about all the legal to start legal to finish what nots. If you have a documented exceedence your in trouble. What some of you are suggesting is that...Jan 1st I'm not scheduled to fly more than 1000 hours this year, in fact I've only got on month scheduled for 90 hrs. I must be legal to fly the rest of the year no matter what huh? So you flew 1500 hrs in a year? Try explaining that to the administrative judge in OKC. Don't go over 30/7 or 34/7 100/year 120/yr what ever part you fall under. Just some advice from the guys in OKC, take or leave it.

Huh??? Dude, people exceed these ALL THE TIME.

Example: 29.5 actual plus scheduled on day 7; overblock on day 7 due to weather so new 30/7 total is 32 hours. LEGAL

Example: 998 actual plus scheduled on December 31; overblock on 12/31 due to weather so new 1000/year total is 1002 hours. LEGAL

It is about SCHEDULED FLIGHT TIME. You cannot be scheduled to exceed a limit -- period. You aren't in trouble until the duty period that will put you over. You cannot start a duty period if you know your schedule will put you over any limit.

If you are scheduled to be under (actual + scheduled for 30/7, 100/month, 1000/year) then you are fine. If you over-block on that duty period YOU ARE STILL LEGAL.

This is not rocket science just like Skybound says:

Legal to start Legat to finish...period. not very complicated unless you mind f$ck it to death. Its about scheduling and duty times...not flight time.

It is very clear in the FAR's, which I have included for your reference:

§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

 

[chperplt]

Don't go over 30/7 or 34/7 100/year 120/yr what ever part you fall under. Just some advice from the guys in OKC, take or leave it.

Dude,

You aren't flying 121 are you? If you are, you better learn the regs quickly before a CP fires your ass for being stupid.

 

[GopherEvertt?]

Ok, let's try this one on...


Let's say you were scheduled for 30 for the week. You finished day 5 by going over by .3 You are now at 25.3 hours and day 6 has 5 hours scheduled. Can you start your first leg of 1.5 hours with the intention of landing .3 under block and then finish the rest of your day as scheduled? OR, does Scheduling need to adjust your flying before you even show up at the airport?

 

[AvroJockey]

Ok, let's try this one on...


Let's say you were scheduled for 30 for the week. You finished day 5 by going over by .3 You are now at 25.3 hours and day 6 has 5 hours scheduled. Can you start your first leg of 1.5 hours with the intention of landing .3 under block and then finish the rest of your day as scheduled? OR, does Scheduling need to adjust your flying before you even show up at the airport?

Scheduling must reschedule you for that last day of flying before you accept the flying, because you can't be "SCHEDULED" to exceed 30 hrs. In this instance you would be scheduled to exceed 30, so you need a different schedule for that day.

BTW, I can see how this can be confusing by reading the regs, because paragraph G makes it look like you must apply "legal to start, legal to finish" on a leg by leg basis, not a daily basis. However, there are many grey areas in the regs, which are subject to interpretation. This is where your local FSDO and assigned POI comes in. I would beleive that most 121 operations manuals would clarify the greyness of this reg; ours does.

 

[chperplt]

Can you start your first leg of 1.5 hours with the intention of landing .3 under block and then finish the rest of your day as scheduled?

NO you cannot. The FAA has written a legal opinion on this matter.

Scheduled block time cannot be reduced in order to make you legal to complete a leg. Block times are historical and cannot be changed on a daily basis to fit your need.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Towelie, I think you may have misread my post.

Just because you are legal to start a week of flying, in no way makes you legal to finish it.

If you are scheduled for 30 hours for the week, you can only finish it if on you last day you take the flight time that you've already flown and add the flying that you are scheduled to do and it is still 30 hours or less. If this were not true you could be scheduled for 6 days of flying at 5 hours a day, and then fly over every day and end up with 40+ hours.

The same goes for 100/mo. If you are scheduled for 100 hours in one month you cannot fly 100+ hours unless on the last days your actual flight time for the previous days in the month plus scheduled flight time for the rest of the month is 100 or less. The only time you can go over is if you exceed your scheduled flight time on the last day. I've flown over 30/7 many times. But I was legal to start the last day.

BTW, I don't believe that the phrase "legal to start, legal to finish" is found anywhere in the regs. It was invented by crew scheduling

If you still think you disagree with me look at the Witlow letter (someone already posted the applicable portion) and or ALPA flight time duty time guide.

 

[EMBPLT]

FTDT_Guide_6-A_Jeppesen.pdf

 

[EMBPLT]

sorry about that - here is the link - http://cf.alpa.org/internet/Projects/FTDT/FTDT_Guide_6-A_Jeppesen.pdf

 

[Towelie]

Towelie, I think you may have misread my post.

Yeah, Carl... my bad. We are on the same page. Sorry about that. When I read your last post, I realize we understand it the same way.

Can I buy you a beer sometime???