30 in 7 question

[great cornholio]

Ok I'm probably just dumb but I have a question about 30 hours of flight in 7 calender days. Me and a buddy got in a dicussion the other day and we both had different ideas. He said it was like legal to start legal to finish like the 8 hours in one day. I thought 30 in 7 went leg by leg. IE you have a 6 leg day and will have 28:30 in 7 so far. You fly 3 of the legs and end up overblock on on those legs. You now add up the new time and see that for now you have 30:05 in 7. I say you would have to drop at least one of the next 3 legs to stay under 30 in 7. My buddy said you can fly the legs because it was legal when you started the day. Who is right.

 

[heywatchthis]

You are right. He use to be right. The rule changed shortly after the American crash at Little Rock.

Legal to start -Legal to finish now counts only once you have taken OFF. If you taxi out and get a ground hold, you have to go back to the gate if it will be over your DUTY TIME.

I think it was the WITLOW letter or rule or something.

 

[b82rez]

You are right but not for the reason posted above.

The fact is that you cannot fly over 30 hours in 7 days. If you end up doing that, for whatever reason, you are in violation.

Legal to start, legal to finish refers to finishing flying during required rest periods. You cannot be scheduled for more than 8 hours, but as long as there have been no modifications to your schedule, you can fly past 8 (way past 8 if need be), so long as your schedule stays in tact.

What the last poster was referring to was the 16 hour duty day. The Whitlow interpretation says that you can, by no means, work for more than 16 hours. If you taxi out and get ground stopped, if you know you will go over 16 hours, even though you have blocked out, you cannot continue.

 

[apdsm]

You are right. He use to be right. The rule changed shortly after the American crash at Little Rock.

Legal to start -Legal to finish now counts only once you have taken OFF. If you taxi out and get a ground hold, you have to go back to the gate if it will be over your DUTY TIME.

I think it was the WITLOW letter or rule or something.

You are referring to Duty time. That is different from 30/7.

 

[DoinTime]

Ok I'm probably just dumb but I have a question about 30 hours of flight in 7 calender days. Me and a buddy got in a dicussion the other day and we both had different ideas. He said it was like legal to start legal to finish like the 8 hours in one day. I thought 30 in 7 went leg by leg. IE you have a 6 leg day and will have 28:30 in 7 so far. You fly 3 of the legs and end up overblock on on those legs. You now add up the new time and see that for now you have 30:05 in 7. I say you would have to drop at least one of the next 3 legs to stay under 30 in 7. My buddy said you can fly the legs because it was legal when you started the day. Who is right.

Actually your buddy is right. Legal to start, legal to finish applies to block time and it is reset at the begining of every duty day. The 16 hour max duty day must be recomputed throughout the day.

 

[b82rez]

Actually your buddy is right. Legal to start, legal to finish applies to block time and it is reset at the begining of every duty day. The 16 hour max duty day must be recomputed throughout the day.

Yes but the 30 hours is a hard number. You cannot fly more than 30 in a week. That's the rule.

The 8 hours between required rest periods says "scheduled", you can fly over that. The 30 hours is a hard number, fly over that and you will be in violation.

 

[SlapShot]

I think this is one of those things that depend on the interpretation of your companies’ POI.

I have had this discussion with a few people also and was never able to get a definite answer either.

 

[Towelie]

Yes but the 30 hours is a hard number. You cannot fly more than 30 in a week. That's the rule.

The 8 hours between required rest periods says "scheduled", you can fly over that. The 30 hours is a hard number, fly over that and you will be in violation.

Dude, you could not be more WRONG.

8 between rest periods, 30/7, 100/month, 1000/year are ALL legal to start legal to finish. That is basic 121 regs.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[DoinTime]

Yes but the 30 hours is a hard number. You cannot fly more than 30 in a week. That's the rule.

The 8 hours between required rest periods says "scheduled", you can fly over that. The 30 hours is a hard number, fly over that and you will be in violation.

You can fly more than 8 hours per day, 30 hours per week, 100 hours per month, and 1000 hours per year just as long as you are never SCHEDULED to exceed these limits. The only "hard" number is a 16 hour DUTY day.

 

[RJPilott]

Dude, you could not be more WRONG.

8 between rest periods, 30/7, 100/month, 1000/year are ALL legal to start legal to finish. That is basic 121 regs.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Thats the way i know it as well. ACA describes legal to start, legal to finish. If you start your last day and expect to finish at 28 hours, but due to delays you go over 30 on your last legs, its legal, according to our POI. Look back is actual, look forward is scheduled when you start your day. .not leg by leg.. Legal to start, legal to finish. At least that is the way it is at ACA. (i say ACA cause we havent changed anything but paint and a few letters). However, you may be able to get an inexperienced scheduler, and convince him/her that your last legs will go over 30/7 and get your last round cancelled. But i never done that...

 

[Quack]

RJPilott and DoinTime are both correct. If you begin your day and are SCHEDULED to fly 29.9 hours in the previous 7 days, and for some reason go over block during ANY of your legs that day, you are still LEGAL to finish flying that day. So in essence, your buddy is the correct one. I wish that I could have been taken off legs the last day for all the times that I have been over block with 30/7 problems, but it doesn't happen that way!

 

[FR8mastr]

if you are scheduled for 29.9 hours in a 7 day period, and then you go over on any day except the last you would be over 30 in 7 and could not finish the trip. They could DH your butt on one leg to get you back on sched.

Example: your schedule is 6 days in a row at exactly 5 hours per day for 6 days. Day 3 you take 5.5 hours to do the trip. You are now in 30/7 trouble. The company must make up that .5 by removing you from flying duties for that same .5 in order for you to finish up your 6th day.

 

[CitationLover]

ALPA publishes a great reference book that answers all these issues, ie 30/7 can be exceeded. call your local LEC rep to get a copy and keep it with you in your flight kit as you will need it.

 

[FR8mastr]

Yes it can be exceeded but only on the last day of said trip in my previous example by delays ect. You can not be scheduled to exceed the 30/7

 

[AdSo81]

I dont even know why Im responding to this post, because it has already been answered about 8 different times...but basicly...I think of it like this. There are two time you turn into a pumpkin...if you go over your 16 hour duty day...or if you dont start your comp rest with in 24 hours of the start of your reduced rest. I believe thats how it works. Everything else..ie 30/7(34/7) in some cases...can be exceded under all conditions mentioned in the posts above. Feel free to rip me apart as needed. Im always down for learning.

 

[great cornholio]

Wow I really wasnt expecting all of these answers so soon. Thats the great thing about flightinfo. You can find out anything. Well I guess its a good thing we didn't bet beer on deal cause I'd be out a case.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

8 between rest periods, 30/7, 100/month, 1000/year are ALL legal to start legal to finish. That is basic 121 regs

8 hours scheduled for a duty period is "legal to start legal to finish"

30/7, 100/month, 1000/year has to be calculated using the time that you've actually flown plus the time that you are scheduled to fly. It is calculated on a daily basis.

If you are scheduled for 100 hrs in a month and you fly over the scheduled time every day, you would not be legal to finish the month.

On a side note, in general regionals have such poor work rules that you need to be an expert in order to not get violated. Airlines with good work rules, the language is clear and restrictive enough that they don't have to worry about violating the FAR's

 

[Humty72]

.....

 

[Indypilot]

On a side note, in general regionals have such poor work rules that you need to be an expert in order to not get violated. Airlines with good work rules, the language is clear and restrictive enough that they don't have to worry about violating the FAR's

So I guess since the multiple round of concessions at these "real" arilines, and now that their work rules are generally the same or worse than the regionals, that all pilots should now be concerned.

 

[DetoXJ]

I'm surprised how many current 121 pilots don't understand these rule. Legal to start / Legal to finish DOES apply to 30/7 100/month and 1000/year and it goes on a day by day basis. If you are legal to start the day then you are legal to finish it. The only thing that goes leg by leg is your max duty period and your 24 hour lookback window to find legal rest.

 

[apdsm]

If you are legal to start the day then you are legal to finish it.

As long as you stay on the original pairing. If you are rerouted, then it is recomputed.

 

[Towelie]

8 hours scheduled for a duty period is "legal to start legal to finish"

30/7, 100/month, 1000/year has to be calculated using the time that you've actually flown plus the time that you are scheduled to fly. It is calculated on a daily basis.

No, Carl. It is still "legal to start, legal to finish." It just doesn't take effect until the duty period that will put you over. But it is still legal to start, legal to finish.

Go read the regs.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Maybe this will help!

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/Projects/FTDT/FTDT_Guide_6-A_Jeppesen.pdf

 

["GO AROUND"]

At ASA the company and contract wont let scheduling schedule you for more than 27.5 in 7 days. This is a buffer for the 30/7. I don't believe the legal to start legal to finish has to do with the day, it's leg based. You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

 

[chperplt]

You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

It is truly scary how many people currently flying 121 don't have a clue what the regs say...


By the way.... what you wrote... WRONG

 

[cobalt]

excellent flyingdawg.... now... will anyone actually read it??? page 6 for good 30/7 examples.

 

[Lequip]

At ASA the company and contract wont let scheduling schedule you for more than 27.5 in 7 days. This is a buffer for the 30/7. I don't believe the legal to start legal to finish has to do with the day, it's leg based. You can't get half way through a 4 leg day with 28 hrs and start a round trip that is over 2 hours scheduled for the round trip. But if you were legal to start the leg and get held in flight then you can exceed the 30.

What an IDIOT. And this guy is a Captain. SCARY! Get a clue you dumba$$. You couldn't be more wrong. This is Indoc 101 crap that even the Gulfstream punks know.

 

[Skybound737]

Legal to start Legat to finish...period. not very complicated unless you mind f$ck it to death. Its about scheduling and duty times...not flight time.

 

[bluesideup1]

Here is the answer to the questions:




Yes legal to start legal to finish on the last duty day only. Exceed that on any day before and flying must be pulled. Usually for me crew scheduling would pull a nice round trip in the middle of my sequence rather than the end and leave me with multiple hours of airport appreciation time as I wait to rejoin my schedule.




The most frequently asked questions concerning the application of the yearly, monthly and
weekly flight time limitations are posed in the following examples:

Q-1. A flight crew member is scheduled to fly five hours per day for six days.
Prior to starting the schedule on the sixth day, the flight time has been
extended by two hours due to weather. Is the crewmember “legal” to begin
the last day’s scheduled flight knowing that he/she will exceed 30 hours of
flight time before completing the flight schedule?

A-1. No, the crewmember may not complete all of the scheduled flights
on the sixth day since he/she would be scheduled to exceed 30 hours
of flight within seven consecutive days. However, the crewmember
may fly a portion of the schedule up to 30 hours, or be rescheduled
to fly up to 30 hours, which in this example would allow the carrier
to schedule the crewmember for three hours of flight on the sixth
day.

Q-2. A flight crewmember is scheduled to fly five hours each day for six days
and has met the schedule for the first five days. During the first flight of this
series-of-flights on the sixth day the pilot exceeds his/her schedule by one
hour due to an ATC delay. Is the crewmember “legal” to complete the
schedule knowing that he/she will exceed the 30-hour flight time limit?

A-2. Yes. In this example when the crewmember began the last day of
the scheduled series-of-flights, he/she was legally scheduled and
could complete the flights and not exceed 30 hours. Because the
delay was caused by circumstances beyond the control of the air
carrier, FAR 121.471(g) provides the necessary relief to exceed 30
hours in this circumstance.



​

 

[PropsR4Boats]

The guys in OKC don't care about all the legal to start legal to finish what nots. If you have a documented exceedence your in trouble. What some of you are suggesting is that...Jan 1st I'm not scheduled to fly more than 1000 hours this year, in fact I've only got on month scheduled for 90 hrs. I must be legal to fly the rest of the year no matter what huh? So you flew 1500 hrs in a year? Try explaining that to the administrative judge in OKC. Don't go over 30/7 or 34/7 100/year 120/yr what ever part you fall under. Just some advice from the guys in OKC, take or leave it.