2400 nm range

[rjacobs]

The reality is, as much as you hate to admit it LD, the Legacy is a great airplane as long as you have runways that are 8000'+. It was designed with those runways in mind. As a corporate jet, it's crummy and not competitive.

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR(same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

 

[spxdriver]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR(same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

 

[rjacobs]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

Dont know about EMB's numbers because we run our own. We take weight penalties when running anti-ice on not added runway length. Worst I have seen is about 3000lbs off of MGTW. I cant imagine a Legacy departing anywhere close to MGTW(again dont fly one) at any time though unless they are running in an airline type interior or possibly max gas.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

I call BS on that. I don't recall EVER sending you any wet runway tab data as I don't know that I have ever even had any. (Apologies in advance if I have. It is either news to me or the resut of age dimming memory.)

Where are you getting those numbers? I'll ask you again. What page and what revision number? Does it have a date?

There are only two places I can think of that *MIGHT* have wet runway takeoff numbers. A JAA AFM and APG. I don't know that even Embraer Takeoff Analysis has wet runway takeoff data and I'm digging for my CD as I type (haven't used it in awhile).

The closest gudance is in AOM Vol 2 Revision 14 - 1-04-15 130 02 which states:

Slippery and contaminated performance accountability are required by JAR, but not by FAR. FAA allows operators to use it at their discretion (see FAA AC 91-6A and Draft AC 91-6B).

A runway is considered contaminated when more than 25% of of the surface used is covered with:

- Standing water with a depth exceeding 1/8 inch (3 mm).
- Slush or loose snow with a depth equivalent to more than 1/8 inch (3 mm) of water.

( ...)

Takeoff performance for contaminated and slippery runways can be computed through the EMBRAER Runway Analysis Software using the AFM - ETOAS Method (refer to Supplement 7 of the AFM). The output data is valid only as guidance (emphasis mine) and it does not consider the use of reverse thrust for airplane stopping.

Dont know about EMB's numbers because we run our own. We take weight penalties when running anti-ice on not added runway length. Worst I have seen is about 3000lbs off of MGTW. I cant imagine a Legacy departing anywhere close to MGTW(again dont fly one) at any time though unless they are running in an airline type interior or possibly max gas.

We take off regularly (Legacy 600 and equivalents) with a full boat and as much gas as we can take (depending on the misssion). It happens. BOW around 29K-30K and can carry 18K # of fuel, MTOW 49,604#. (The Legacy 650 has higher MTOW, fuel capacity, thrust, etc. and performs better as a result.)

And you are correct on the penalty. I ran the numbers for SPX's own 4,800' long strip in both directions (from -10 to +10 the Legacy 600 will fly at roughly 45,500 lbs, MORE than plenty to go 2,500 NM: the 650 will do much better) and the weight penalty is under 150 pounds for anti-ice on. With ten knots of headwind I get all that weight back. I will see if the EPAS (or ERAS I guess it is called now) gives any output for contaminated surface but I seriously doubt the penalty is 1,500 feet.

The only time I ever even considered this an issue was in an EMB-135 RJ coming out of Florida when it was raining buckets. It didn't seem prudent to takeoff into a thunderstorm so I delayed my departure twenty minutes. If you have enough water over a grooved runway that it is considered contaminated then it is probably a good time to set the parking brake and rethink things for a bit, no matter WHAT airplane you are flying.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR (same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

XR s heavier than the 600 but not the 650 I believe. But a 50K # airplane for sure. Does the XR have a Flap 18/22 takeoff? If the Legacy could get that our FL would drop dramatically but they won't do it for some reason.

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

The only thing killing us on Field Length is lack of a Flaps 18/22 takeoff. I've repeatedly asked EMB about this and the only answer I get is, "The winglets equate to flaps 18/22." So that begs the question: is the XR, with its winglets, doing 18/22 takeoffs at heavy weights out of 4K' runways? If so then winglets and flaps 9 are obviously not equivalent to non-winglet 18 /22 takeoffs.

It is a competitive airplane. EMB needs to stop marketing it as a Super Midsize and start calling it what it is: Large.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I am not talking about only operating out of our home airport.. I'm talking about operating out of places like Aspen with enough fuel to go to the east coast, (snowy/wet and anti-ice on), Hilton Head, Palwaukee, etc.

Runway length isn't the problem: like most twin jets, single engine climb gradient is (assuming IMC departure).

The reality is, as much as you hate to admit it LD, the Legacy is a great airplane as long as you have runways that are 8000'+. It was designed with those runways in mind. As a corporate jet, it's crummy and not competitive.

8000' ? Your hyperbole is really out of control here.

 

[rjacobs]

XR s heavier than the 600 but not the 650 I believe. But a 50K # airplane for sure. Does the XR have a Flap 18/22 takeoff? If the Legacy could get that our FL would drop dramatically but they won't do it for some reason.

The only thing killing us on Field Length is lack of a Flaps 18/22 takeoff. I've repeatedly asked EMB about this and the only answer I get is, "The winglets equate to flaps 18/22." So that begs the question: is the XR, with its winglets, doing 18/22 takeoffs at heavy weights out of 4K' runways? If so then winglets and flaps 9 are obviously not equivalent to non-winglet 18 /22 takeoffs.

We're not qualified on the line to do Flaps 22, but we are 18(we dont carry flaps 22 performance numbers). Our guys that were running charter ops could do 22, but the performance was calculated just prior to takeoff by our DX department. We dont run balanced field speeds as common practice(we can, but its a PITA to calculate so we dont do it if we can avoid it) so our V1 and VR are the same and we just take a weight penalty out of short runways(or icing). Doing flaps 18 the speeds seem to be, just from memory, something like 7-10kts slower depending on weight. Doing flaps 18 we have to do an E-TO(or TO in the LR models) thrust setting. Like I said 50k lbs off of 7k feet(which means actual TO distance was probably 3500-4000ft) with flaps 18 was about as max performance as I have done.

Flaps 18 has nothing to do with winglets or non-winglets since we have LR models that can do flaps 18. I think the spar needed to be beefed up, but I honestly have no clue. We have some LR's that can do 18 and some that 18 is blocked off. All XR's can do 18.

We also have increased V speeds to carry more weight off of long runways and still meet 2nd segment climb if we need to use them. I think I have used them in COS, DEN, TLC, MEX and probably a few others(saw 200kt GS while rolling down the runway in MEX one hot ass day).

The airplane does alot as long as you have the performance software to calculate things. If you are using the EMB book, I dont know, we dont even have much performance data in ours since ours is all computer generated tailored to our A/C.

Now if EMB would have put some type of leading edge device on, oh man this thing would be so much better.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I flew ERJs with 18 and 22 takeoffs. I think the 145LR was Flaps 22 and the 135 was Flaps 18. Been awhile now but the Field Length (FL) went way down compared to flaps 9.

Embraer says that Flaps 18 won't help the Legacy "because it has winglets which do the same thing as Flaps 18 on a non-winglet ERJ."

No idea where that comes from. I imagine a Flaps 18 Legacy would leap off the runway. If FL is the limit then it surely helps.

Slats would have helped for sure, but then MX goes up and reliability goes down. Tradeoff.

I'm fairly confident we can go that 2,500 NM off of 4,800' in just about any condition. For the life of me I cannot find my analysis CD anywhere.

 

[rjacobs]

Whoever you talked to about flaps 18 on the legacy vs. winglets is an idiot. Our XR's use almost the same amount of runway as our LR's.

P.S. you know anybody hiring for the legacy?

 

[DAS at 10/250]

That's BS. Legacy can do it out of 4600' (actually less but I only have reduced thrust takeoff data in front of me right now). However, the Legacy sounds like it is bigger than what he is looking for.

If you like rugged go with Embraer. If you like stuff that breaks all the time then go with everyone else. I hear the Sovereign is quite a beast on performance though. Not a bad machine there.

The Sovereign? It is the best airplane to take you out of 4000' and straight to MX at .64

If you like broken stuff, get a ********************ation.


Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[con-pilot]

The Sovereign? It is the best airplane to take you out of 4000' and straight to MX at .64

If you like broken stuff, get a ********************ation.


Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Then one can assume that you do not care for Citations then?

 

[jonjuan]

(saw 200kt GS while rolling down the runway in MEX one hot ass day).

Now that's scary.

 

[rjacobs]

Now that's scary.

Why is that scary?

 

[BoilerUP]

Why is that scary?

What's the max tire speed? I thought 182kt was pretty typical...

 

[LegacyDriver]

What's the max tire speed? I thought 182kt was pretty typical...

Depends on the tire. For high altitude ops in places like Telluride there are special nose gear tires that are rated for higher speed.

Slats-only takeoffs in the Falcon 50 can be fun on high and hot days, too.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Why is that scary?

200kt GS on the runway at takeoff does not concern you?

 

[LegacyDriver]

200kt GS on the runway at takeoff does not concern you?

Why should it? Depends on the plane and the conditions. If the airplane is designed for it...

 

[rjacobs]

What's the max tire speed? I thought 182kt was pretty typical...

204 knots...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Why should it? Depends on the plane and the conditions. If the airplane is designed for it...

That's the point.....does not sound like it was designed for much aside for moving animals from Cleveland to Newark at 27,000ft in a noisy cabin.



"gonna need the high and hot tires today guys..."

Never had this issue out of MMTO or Aspen etc in the ultra fine Dassault product (or any corporate jet?).....even with the regular standard issue tires!!!

 

[jonjuan]

That's the point.....does not sound like it was designed for much aside for moving animals from Cleveland to Newark at 27,000ft in a noisy cabin.



"gonna need the high and hot tires today guys..."

Never had this issue out of MMTO or Aspen etc in the ultra fine Dassault product (or any corporate jet?).....even with the regular standard issue tires!!!

My thoughts as well. Wonder if they need special rain tires on wet runways as well as special brakes on runways under 7,000 feet. At least the plane does love the runway. Compares favorably to Donald Trumps 727 at least.
Reminds me of the guys who say the G200 is a great runway performer.