2400 nm range

[Quimby]

G-3

 

[2000Easyguy]

Falcon 50. Not sure if that was mentioned?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Good thing above 390 and 5,000 strips aren't requirements.

FL410 capable. Sea Level max weight takeoff BFL at 100 degrees F is 6000' which gets you 3450NM (Legacy 600) or 3900NM (Legacy 650). BFL to go 2400 NM is significantly shorter for both planes.

Just correcting the record. Let's not start another flame war.

For what he is asking for why not a CRJ Phoenix conversion? Aren't these things 3000NM and relatively inexpensive?

 

[spxdriver]

For what he is asking for why not a CRJ Phoenix conversion? Aren't these things 3000NM and relatively inexpensive?

LD, stop recommending junk.

For 2,400 nm, go with a Hawker 800XP, Falcon 50, 2000, or Citation Sovereign. Stay away from the corporate jet wannabe jets; ie: CRJ, Legacy, etc. They may do the job most of the time, but the first time you want to go out of a 4800' wet runway with anti-ice on, you won't be going 2400 nm in any of the RJ's.

 

[TXDA2000]

Don' forget the Jetstar II.

 

[con-pilot]

Don' forget the Jetstar II.

Ah now, if one wants an aircraft that loved runways on hot days, let alone a high altitude runway, the Jetstar II/731 is it.

Come to think about it, are there any Jetstars II/731s still flying?

 

[Avalanche]

Cl300

+1. Great product.

 

[njcapt]

Come to think about it, are there any Jetstars II/731s still flying?

Got a beautiful quad-731 in our hangar at Mitway. It flies on occasion.

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD, stop recommending junk.

For 2,400 nm, go with a Hawker 800XP, Falcon 50, 2000, or Citation Sovereign. Stay away from the corporate jet wannabe jets; ie: CRJ, Legacy, etc. They may do the job most of the time, but the first time you want to go out of a 4800' wet runway with anti-ice on, you won't be going 2400 nm in any of the RJ's.

That's BS. Legacy can do it out of 4600' (actually less but I only have reduced thrust takeoff data in front of me right now). However, the Legacy sounds like it is bigger than what he is looking for.

If you like rugged go with Embraer. If you like stuff that breaks all the time then go with everyone else. I hear the Sovereign is quite a beast on performance though. Not a bad machine there.

 

[spxdriver]

That's BS. Legacy can do it out of 4600' (actually less but I only have reduced thrust takeoff data in front of me right now).

Not BS.
An airplane with AE3007A1E engines at 42,000 lbs has a V1 of 114, VR of 121, and V2 of 129. Anti-ice on, and runway wet requires 6,241'.
Slightly more than 4,600' LD...

 

[CorpCaptain]

I'll never forget Alan Jackson (Country Music) had a old Jetstar that was in relatively good condition. Going out to the ACM's in Vegas, everyone leaving Nashville had to stop because of 180kt headwinds. They topped that Jetstar off and flew it at 26K all the way to LAS and had reserve. Wonder what market value is these days on one of those beasts? My vote is for the CL300, helluva bird performance-wise and very comfortable for both passengers and crew.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Not BS.
An airplane with AE3007A1E engines at 42,000 lbs has a V1 of 114, VR of 121, and V2 of 129. Anti-ice on, and runway wet requires 6,241'.
Slightly more than 4,600' LD...

I don't believe the ANTI-ICE + WET penalty is 1,500 feet. I will look for myself later with EPAS and APG to see what they say but I don't think it is that much by any means. What are you using for your data?

What are the Sovereign numbers including TOW? Just curious.

Also, what's your BOW?

 

[con-pilot]

I'll never forget Alan Jackson (Country Music) had a old Jetstar that was in relatively good condition. Going out to the ACM's in Vegas, everyone leaving Nashville had to stop because of 180kt headwinds. They topped that Jetstar off and flew it at 26K all the way to LAS and had reserve. Wonder what market value is these days on one of those beasts? My vote is for the CL300, helluva bird performance-wise and very comfortable for both passengers and crew.

I loved flying the Jetstar II/731, one of the nicest flying aircraft I have ever flown and that is saying something as I flew Sabres and the Falcon 50/900s as well.

Not flown nor ridden in a CL300, I have a friend that has one and they love it.

However, for bang for the buck if it was my money, I'd have a straight Falcon 50 with the 3D engines to run around the US and for the occasional hop to Europe and/or Hawaii and farther west bound trips.

 

[spxdriver]

I don't believe the ANTI-ICE + WET penalty is 1,500 feet. I will look for myself later with EPAS and APG to see what they say but I don't think it is that much by any means. What are you using for your data?

What are the Sovereign numbers including TOW? Just curious.

Also, what's your BOW?

I'm using the takeoff data that you sent me in PDF form.

Sovereign requires 2950' at max weight anti-ice off and dry, and 3500' with anti-ice on and wet.

BOW is 18,400.

 

[LegacyDriver]

That's simplified tabbed data not EPAS.

Your airplane weighs half as much as mine. It isn't exactly the same comparison.

I'll get some better numbers later but bottom line is you're one of ten operators in the world that needs that once-in-a-decade requirement. Hardly relevant IMHO.

 

[LegacyDriver]

BTW, there are a LOT of Jetstars still flying in Mexico. I guess they're still good for something.

I saw one in Vegas not that long ago. Looked to be in pretty good shape.

 

[spxdriver]

Your airplane weighs half as much as mine. It isn't exactly the same comparison.

Your statement makes no sense LD. Using your logic, an A380 should use about 100,000 feet of runway to takeoff, since it weighs 20x that of a Legacy.

I'll get some better numbers later but bottom line is you're one of ten operators in the world that needs that once-in-a-decade requirement. Hardly relevant IMHO.

Once-in-a-decade requirement? You really think that taking off on a wet runway less than 6500' at sea level, or above, with anti-ice on is a once-in-a-decade situation?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Your statement makes no sense LD. Using your logic, an A380 should use about 100,000 feet of runway to takeoff, since it weighs 20x that of a Legacy.

No, you are the one who doesn't make sense. I'm not going to have this argument with you any longer. If you want to carry on with it call me on the phone.

You are flying a tiny little tinker toy Cessna with a giant wing and big motors. It doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the EMB. Not by a long shot. It is a niche jet in a completely different category than the EMB. The EMB is a tank by comparison. Please don't make me laugh.

Once-in-a-decade requirement? You really think that taking off on a wet runway less than 6500' at sea level, or above, with anti-ice on is a once-in-a-decade situation?

If I am really in that bad shape (and again, it is not 6500' so let's knock that off) I will go somewhere close by and drive. Not everyone needs to oeprate out of a 4200' runway and how often does said airfield have snow and ice in southern California? Not enough to matter in the argument. You just pull stuff out of your rear end to suit your argument, even when that is less than one percent of what you will ever do with the jet.

Ridiculous.

As it stands I've never been operationally limited by the Embraer's capabilities. It always gets in and out of anywhere I need it to go. If you need to use a tennis court then buy a Sovereign or a helicopter. Meanwhile if a field is too short (never happened) I will takeoff from an airport five miles away and not worry about getting stuck with a broken jet at my destination.

Now PLEASE LET'S STOP RIGHT NOW. I don't need another 200-page train wreck. Stick with working on what the guy needs.

Sovereign gets my vote.

Cheers.

 

[BoilerUP]

Can't really do HTO or HXD in a Legacy.

Not saying, I'm just saying...

 

[spxdriver]

No, you are the one who doesn't make sense. I'm not going to have this argument with you any longer. If you want to carry on with it call me on the phone.

You are flying a tiny little tinker toy Cessna with a giant wing and big motors. It doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the EMB. Not by a long shot. It is a niche jet in a completely different category than the EMB. The EMB is a tank by comparison. Please don't make me laugh.

Please back up, with facts, your statement that a Sovereign doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the Legacy.

Thus far, we have a 100% dispatch reliability. Other operators who I've spoken to who have operated the airplane since 2005 have the same reliability, or perhaps one missed trip. One missed trip in six years isn't bad -- better than the Legacy formerly based at our airport; in the two years that it was there, it was AOG at least three times.

As far as durability is concerned, Netjets works their airplanes very hard, that's no secret. Their Sovereign fleet seems quite durable, rarely with an airplane grounded. Our Part 91 airplane is proving to be extremely durable.

The Sovereign is EASILY a more comfortable cabin for one reason alone -- cabin altitude. As the Sovereign cruises at FL410 with a 5,100 foot cabin, the Legacy is at FL410 (well, maybe...) with an 8,000 foot cabin. After having flown airplanes with 8,000 foot cabins and now the Sovereign with a 5,100 foot cabin at FL410, the benefit of a lower, more comfortable cabin altitude is evident.

If I am really in that bad shape (and again, it is not 6500' so let's knock that off) I will go somewhere close by and drive. Not everyone needs to oeprate out of a 4200' runway and how often does said airfield have snow and ice in southern California? Not enough to matter in the argument. You just pull stuff out of your rear end to suit your argument, even when that is less than one percent of what you will ever do with the jet.

If it's not 6,500 feet as the Embraer manual says it is, then what is it?

I am not talking about only operating out of our home airport.. I'm talking about operating out of places like Aspen with enough fuel to go to the east coast, (snowy/wet and anti-ice on), Hilton Head, Palwaukee, etc.

The reality is, as much as you hate to admit it LD, the Legacy is a great airplane as long as you have runways that are 8000'+. It was designed with those runways in mind. As a corporate jet, it's crummy and not competitive.

Meanwhile if a field is too short (never happened) I will takeoff from an airport five miles away and not worry about getting stuck with a broken jet at my destination.

What airport is 5 miles away from Aspen, for example?

For the record, I prefer to use the airport that I want to, and still not worry about a broken jet at your destination.

Of course, you don't have to worry about the jet being broken at the destination if the airport that you have your Legacy parked at is having a cold day with a wet runway which is less than 6500', since you won't be able to takeoff to get to your destination in the first place. It may be broken at your departure point, but not your destination..