2400 nm range

[CorpCaptain]

I'll never forget Alan Jackson (Country Music) had a old Jetstar that was in relatively good condition. Going out to the ACM's in Vegas, everyone leaving Nashville had to stop because of 180kt headwinds. They topped that Jetstar off and flew it at 26K all the way to LAS and had reserve. Wonder what market value is these days on one of those beasts? My vote is for the CL300, helluva bird performance-wise and very comfortable for both passengers and crew.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Not BS.
An airplane with AE3007A1E engines at 42,000 lbs has a V1 of 114, VR of 121, and V2 of 129. Anti-ice on, and runway wet requires 6,241'.
Slightly more than 4,600' LD...

I don't believe the ANTI-ICE + WET penalty is 1,500 feet. I will look for myself later with EPAS and APG to see what they say but I don't think it is that much by any means. What are you using for your data?

What are the Sovereign numbers including TOW? Just curious.

Also, what's your BOW?

 

[con-pilot]

I'll never forget Alan Jackson (Country Music) had a old Jetstar that was in relatively good condition. Going out to the ACM's in Vegas, everyone leaving Nashville had to stop because of 180kt headwinds. They topped that Jetstar off and flew it at 26K all the way to LAS and had reserve. Wonder what market value is these days on one of those beasts? My vote is for the CL300, helluva bird performance-wise and very comfortable for both passengers and crew.

I loved flying the Jetstar II/731, one of the nicest flying aircraft I have ever flown and that is saying something as I flew Sabres and the Falcon 50/900s as well.

Not flown nor ridden in a CL300, I have a friend that has one and they love it.

However, for bang for the buck if it was my money, I'd have a straight Falcon 50 with the 3D engines to run around the US and for the occasional hop to Europe and/or Hawaii and farther west bound trips.

 

[spxdriver]

I don't believe the ANTI-ICE + WET penalty is 1,500 feet. I will look for myself later with EPAS and APG to see what they say but I don't think it is that much by any means. What are you using for your data?

What are the Sovereign numbers including TOW? Just curious.

Also, what's your BOW?

I'm using the takeoff data that you sent me in PDF form.

Sovereign requires 2950' at max weight anti-ice off and dry, and 3500' with anti-ice on and wet.

BOW is 18,400.

 

[LegacyDriver]

That's simplified tabbed data not EPAS.

Your airplane weighs half as much as mine. It isn't exactly the same comparison.

I'll get some better numbers later but bottom line is you're one of ten operators in the world that needs that once-in-a-decade requirement. Hardly relevant IMHO.

 

[LegacyDriver]

BTW, there are a LOT of Jetstars still flying in Mexico. I guess they're still good for something.

I saw one in Vegas not that long ago. Looked to be in pretty good shape.

 

[spxdriver]

Your airplane weighs half as much as mine. It isn't exactly the same comparison.

Your statement makes no sense LD. Using your logic, an A380 should use about 100,000 feet of runway to takeoff, since it weighs 20x that of a Legacy.

I'll get some better numbers later but bottom line is you're one of ten operators in the world that needs that once-in-a-decade requirement. Hardly relevant IMHO.

Once-in-a-decade requirement? You really think that taking off on a wet runway less than 6500' at sea level, or above, with anti-ice on is a once-in-a-decade situation?

 

[LegacyDriver]

Your statement makes no sense LD. Using your logic, an A380 should use about 100,000 feet of runway to takeoff, since it weighs 20x that of a Legacy.

No, you are the one who doesn't make sense. I'm not going to have this argument with you any longer. If you want to carry on with it call me on the phone.

You are flying a tiny little tinker toy Cessna with a giant wing and big motors. It doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the EMB. Not by a long shot. It is a niche jet in a completely different category than the EMB. The EMB is a tank by comparison. Please don't make me laugh.

Once-in-a-decade requirement? You really think that taking off on a wet runway less than 6500' at sea level, or above, with anti-ice on is a once-in-a-decade situation?

If I am really in that bad shape (and again, it is not 6500' so let's knock that off) I will go somewhere close by and drive. Not everyone needs to oeprate out of a 4200' runway and how often does said airfield have snow and ice in southern California? Not enough to matter in the argument. You just pull stuff out of your rear end to suit your argument, even when that is less than one percent of what you will ever do with the jet.

Ridiculous.

As it stands I've never been operationally limited by the Embraer's capabilities. It always gets in and out of anywhere I need it to go. If you need to use a tennis court then buy a Sovereign or a helicopter. Meanwhile if a field is too short (never happened) I will takeoff from an airport five miles away and not worry about getting stuck with a broken jet at my destination.

Now PLEASE LET'S STOP RIGHT NOW. I don't need another 200-page train wreck. Stick with working on what the guy needs.

Sovereign gets my vote.

Cheers.

 

[BoilerUP]

Can't really do HTO or HXD in a Legacy.

Not saying, I'm just saying...

 

[spxdriver]

No, you are the one who doesn't make sense. I'm not going to have this argument with you any longer. If you want to carry on with it call me on the phone.

You are flying a tiny little tinker toy Cessna with a giant wing and big motors. It doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the EMB. Not by a long shot. It is a niche jet in a completely different category than the EMB. The EMB is a tank by comparison. Please don't make me laugh.

Please back up, with facts, your statement that a Sovereign doesn't have the durability, comfort, or reliability of the Legacy.

Thus far, we have a 100% dispatch reliability. Other operators who I've spoken to who have operated the airplane since 2005 have the same reliability, or perhaps one missed trip. One missed trip in six years isn't bad -- better than the Legacy formerly based at our airport; in the two years that it was there, it was AOG at least three times.

As far as durability is concerned, Netjets works their airplanes very hard, that's no secret. Their Sovereign fleet seems quite durable, rarely with an airplane grounded. Our Part 91 airplane is proving to be extremely durable.

The Sovereign is EASILY a more comfortable cabin for one reason alone -- cabin altitude. As the Sovereign cruises at FL410 with a 5,100 foot cabin, the Legacy is at FL410 (well, maybe...) with an 8,000 foot cabin. After having flown airplanes with 8,000 foot cabins and now the Sovereign with a 5,100 foot cabin at FL410, the benefit of a lower, more comfortable cabin altitude is evident.

If I am really in that bad shape (and again, it is not 6500' so let's knock that off) I will go somewhere close by and drive. Not everyone needs to oeprate out of a 4200' runway and how often does said airfield have snow and ice in southern California? Not enough to matter in the argument. You just pull stuff out of your rear end to suit your argument, even when that is less than one percent of what you will ever do with the jet.

If it's not 6,500 feet as the Embraer manual says it is, then what is it?

I am not talking about only operating out of our home airport.. I'm talking about operating out of places like Aspen with enough fuel to go to the east coast, (snowy/wet and anti-ice on), Hilton Head, Palwaukee, etc.

The reality is, as much as you hate to admit it LD, the Legacy is a great airplane as long as you have runways that are 8000'+. It was designed with those runways in mind. As a corporate jet, it's crummy and not competitive.

Meanwhile if a field is too short (never happened) I will takeoff from an airport five miles away and not worry about getting stuck with a broken jet at my destination.

What airport is 5 miles away from Aspen, for example?

For the record, I prefer to use the airport that I want to, and still not worry about a broken jet at your destination.

Of course, you don't have to worry about the jet being broken at the destination if the airport that you have your Legacy parked at is having a cold day with a wet runway which is less than 6500', since you won't be able to takeoff to get to your destination in the first place. It may be broken at your departure point, but not your destination..

 

[rjacobs]

The reality is, as much as you hate to admit it LD, the Legacy is a great airplane as long as you have runways that are 8000'+. It was designed with those runways in mind. As a corporate jet, it's crummy and not competitive.

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR(same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

 

[spxdriver]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR(same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

 

[rjacobs]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

Dont know about EMB's numbers because we run our own. We take weight penalties when running anti-ice on not added runway length. Worst I have seen is about 3000lbs off of MGTW. I cant imagine a Legacy departing anywhere close to MGTW(again dont fly one) at any time though unless they are running in an airline type interior or possibly max gas.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Keep in mind, I'm talking wet runways with anti-ice on. According to EMBs own info, the airplane requires in excess of 6500' at sea level.

I call BS on that. I don't recall EVER sending you any wet runway tab data as I don't know that I have ever even had any. (Apologies in advance if I have. It is either news to me or the resut of age dimming memory.)

Where are you getting those numbers? I'll ask you again. What page and what revision number? Does it have a date?

There are only two places I can think of that *MIGHT* have wet runway takeoff numbers. A JAA AFM and APG. I don't know that even Embraer Takeoff Analysis has wet runway takeoff data and I'm digging for my CD as I type (haven't used it in awhile).

The closest gudance is in AOM Vol 2 Revision 14 - 1-04-15 130 02 which states:

Slippery and contaminated performance accountability are required by JAR, but not by FAR. FAA allows operators to use it at their discretion (see FAA AC 91-6A and Draft AC 91-6B).

A runway is considered contaminated when more than 25% of of the surface used is covered with:

- Standing water with a depth exceeding 1/8 inch (3 mm).
- Slush or loose snow with a depth equivalent to more than 1/8 inch (3 mm) of water.

( ...)

Takeoff performance for contaminated and slippery runways can be computed through the EMBRAER Runway Analysis Software using the AFM - ETOAS Method (refer to Supplement 7 of the AFM). The output data is valid only as guidance (emphasis mine) and it does not consider the use of reverse thrust for airplane stopping.

Dont know about EMB's numbers because we run our own. We take weight penalties when running anti-ice on not added runway length. Worst I have seen is about 3000lbs off of MGTW. I cant imagine a Legacy departing anywhere close to MGTW(again dont fly one) at any time though unless they are running in an airline type interior or possibly max gas.

We take off regularly (Legacy 600 and equivalents) with a full boat and as much gas as we can take (depending on the misssion). It happens. BOW around 29K-30K and can carry 18K # of fuel, MTOW 49,604#. (The Legacy 650 has higher MTOW, fuel capacity, thrust, etc. and performs better as a result.)

And you are correct on the penalty. I ran the numbers for SPX's own 4,800' long strip in both directions (from -10 to +10 the Legacy 600 will fly at roughly 45,500 lbs, MORE than plenty to go 2,500 NM: the 650 will do much better) and the weight penalty is under 150 pounds for anti-ice on. With ten knots of headwind I get all that weight back. I will see if the EPAS (or ERAS I guess it is called now) gives any output for contaminated surface but I seriously doubt the penalty is 1,500 feet.

The only time I ever even considered this an issue was in an EMB-135 RJ coming out of Florida when it was raining buckets. It didn't seem prudent to takeoff into a thunderstorm so I delayed my departure twenty minutes. If you have enough water over a grooved runway that it is considered contaminated then it is probably a good time to set the parking brake and rethink things for a bit, no matter WHAT airplane you are flying.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I dont have a dog in this fight, but I do fly the EMB145XR (same as the Legacy but less gas and more weight(I think)).

XR s heavier than the 600 but not the 650 I believe. But a 50K # airplane for sure. Does the XR have a Flap 18/22 takeoff? If the Legacy could get that our FL would drop dramatically but they won't do it for some reason.

Our company has said we will send the airplane in and out of any runway that is 6000ft or longer.

Flaps 18 or 22 takeoffs with balanced field speeds the airplane can carry a ton of weight out of short runways. I heard of some of our charter guys running a full 145XR(I think it was close to 50k lbs) out of a ~4000ft runway with balanced field length speeds. I have taken close to 50k lbs off of 7k foot on the old CLE 6c(without balanced field length speeds).

So to say the EMB can not compete is not true, at least IMO.

The only thing killing us on Field Length is lack of a Flaps 18/22 takeoff. I've repeatedly asked EMB about this and the only answer I get is, "The winglets equate to flaps 18/22." So that begs the question: is the XR, with its winglets, doing 18/22 takeoffs at heavy weights out of 4K' runways? If so then winglets and flaps 9 are obviously not equivalent to non-winglet 18 /22 takeoffs.

It is a competitive airplane. EMB needs to stop marketing it as a Super Midsize and start calling it what it is: Large.