Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

2300 signatures and counting!

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
I can hardly wait until the next merger involving USAIR. The west guys will cry bloody murder when they get the same treatment that the East got.

"But, I have 5 years with USAIR! How can I be below one of your new hires?! This is complete B*ll********************!" LOL

Time is ticking.... Its going to be a doozey
 
That's right Grog, it's all their fault. What would you do in their shoes? Honestly. I'm fortunate to not have to worry about it, but if I were, say a 1982 hire based in PHL or CLT, I's be so pissed off I couldn't see straight. Having lost everything, my guess is I'd be willing to try anything to effect any change.

So, what would you do? Sit around and take it like a man, after a lifetime of paying dues?

They haven't lost "everything"... they still have a well paying job, which was far from certain before this mess was announced. What they have lost is due to piss poor mgmt. year after year. I can empathize with the east for all they've been through, but now they want payback - and they're attempting to get it from the awa pilots.

East wants movement from their attrition when the fact is their attrition only helped them remain employed through the downsizing, it hadn't provided them upward movement for several years. At the same time west guys had seen slow and steady upward movement for the last several years that has turned into stagnation since the merger announcment. Some "windfall"!

In one of the latest examples of spin the East MEC put forward on how the West FOs where going to steal their upgrades they talked about a junior AWA FO that will upgarde with 12 yrs in becasue of the NIC award where he wouldn't have upgraded until 22 years in without it. That sounds like a total windfall until you realize the average AWA upgrade was 7 years and had been for a very long time, now that same FO has to wait 5 more years WITH the NIC award to upgrade - some "windfall"!

I don't know why I waste my time pissing into the wind with these "gods of aviation" -
Now that I think about it... I used to emapthize with them but now I just have no respect for them.
 
What cracks me up is the arrogance of the ALPA lovers who have the audacity to think the Nicolau award is the only reason that the East pilots are going to decertify ALPA.....

The award, and its consequences, were the straw that broke the camel's back. Prater coming to CLT and telling them that the arbitrator can do anything he wants and doesn't have to apply ALPA's nebulous merger policy? Are you @#$@#ing kidding? No ALPA group would ever agree to arbitration if they figured the arbitrator could do whatever he wanted without addressing ALPA's merger policy. Disingenuineous at best, an outright fabrication at its worst.

I signed my card.

PCL: Your career has been nothing but paying for your job and a wild ride up the ladder.....to say the USAir East guys are morons when you have had to endure nothing that they have had to removes all doubt who the moron is. Further proof is the fact that you would follow ALPA into outer space without even a thought of the consequences.

A350
 
Last edited:
Are you a professional, or just like one of the thousands of American’s who always blame their problems on someone else? A professional plays by the rules, because the rules govern the game. Get the best legal help you can to ensure you understand the rules and then be a professional and play ball. Or I guess you can just say you aren’t responsible for your own conduct and your own problems and your neighbor or relative or some other “unknown” fellow American is.

We at AWA are professionals and we played by the rules. We engaged with the East for a two year ordeal. Informal Talks, Federal Mediation, Federal Arbitration. ALPA has stated there is no instance of the process not being followed. When the East lost in Arbitration – they got pissed and want to re-write the verdict. Every ALPA pilot who talks about “brotherly love” “his union sister” “the fellowship of being an aviator” should be outraged at the way the East is conducting this. There is no “fairness” in this, only an “I’m gonna get what is owed to me at all costs” methodology – sounds like thug tactics doesn’t it? Nobody at AWA weeps for the East guys because we never made $200+ an hour like they did. Their MEC and their union reps, in conjunction with their management made the history of US Air. 2 bankruptcies and an 18 year guy at the bottom of the list is not AWA’s fault – it belongs squarely in Philadelphia and with every pilot who was there. Each of us is responsible for the success or failure of our union representatives. If you don’t like your job, have plan B, and when your job goes south, move on to something else. If you are an Adult and have kids, I hope you are teaching that – all of us need Plan B for a Rainy Day. So the East’s mess is not the West’s fault and we are just tired of hearing it – it is a broken record in PHX and LAS. The West has stopped hiring, stopped upgrading (50 dudes through June 08), and suffered backwards movement as we shore up the East operation. Our 737s are going away. We are plowing money into PHL like ship through a goose.

For every other ALPA member you will bear the cost of the East’s hanky-panky. They are suing the West MEC and ALPA – every ALPA member’s dues will go to defend the costs. Expect your insurance premiums to go up. Expect there to be less money if a hurricane hits and you need help from ALPA’s disaster fund. We at AWA are just those un-experienced youngsters that pride themselves on following the rules and maintaining a professional response. We will continue to hold the high ground, not engage in “decertification” tactics, and continue bargaining with management in an effort to improve the contracts of both East and West pilots. The sooner the East gets on board, the quicker the entire process will move forward for all ALPA pilots. Most of us just vote to let the East guys continue to go under (I say give ‘em more rope) and then we’ll pick up whatever is left over and move on with it. We want to build a new US Airways and they want to breathe air into a long dead US Air and keep the corpse alive. We will build an awesome new US Airways with or without them.
 
All I'm saying is that if you were in their shoes, you'd be pretty upset too. How about some empathy?


You are sueing us and you want empathy???! Don't forget the fact that many east pilots have stated they will never vote in a joint contract; thus holding all our wages down at industry bottom levels. Lets not forget that the east MEC did not want to give west pilots access to your jumpseats.....and you want empathy....lol. Every step of the merger process was followed and agreed to by both parties. You guys epitomize poor sportsmanship.
 
That post is spot on MK82man. Very well reasoned and PROFESSIONAL.

Every other ALPA group needs to realize what's going on here.
------------------------
Every ALPA pilot who talks about “brotherly love” “his union sister” “the fellowship of being an aviator” should be outraged at the way the East is conducting this. There is no “fairness” in this, only an “I’m gonna get what is owed to me at all costs” methodology – sounds like thug tactics doesn’t it?
------------------------
 
You are sueing us and you want empathy???! Don't forget the fact that many east pilots have stated they will never vote in a joint contract; thus holding all our wages down at industry bottom levels. Lets not forget that the east MEC did not want to give west pilots access to your jumpseats.....and you want empathy....lol. Every step of the merger process was followed and agreed to by both parties. You guys epitomize poor sportsmanship.

Hey Green, read the posts a little more carefully, bro. I fly for a different legacy carrier. (My bio should be your first clue.[an airways pilot with only 7K hours?])

MK82, Nicely written intelligent post. Thank you for helping to educate me on the other side of this issue without the seventh grade name calling and lack of reading comprehension your peers have displayed.

I wish you guys the best. ALL of you.
 
I don't know, I read alot about no sympathy for the East guys making 200/hr at one time, while the west was no where near there. Is this jealousy of the fact that the west side for years has toiled at bottom wage levels (only recently being higher than other places since the concessionairy contracts..) Now the west has a chance to climb higher (if they could get a combined contract) and they are being blocked by such as the results of the merger award. If your so positive that the award was fair, and done correctly, why hasn't alpa signed off on it and forwarded it to management???? Why should ALPA care if US decertifies ALPA??? If the award still stands etc. then it shouldn't matter what the east guys do. As they feel they have been wronged, or something is right with the award, they are exploring all avenues available to them.
Someone mentioned the company being hurt now operationally, because they can't combine the carriers. What happened to chug a lug's comments that he could run the operations seperate forever??? The hemingway letter, stating theycould force the east contract on the west??? Why is the company so rushed to combine the operations now? I remember dougie, saying the synergies of doing such, really wouldn't amount to much of anything.

Either way, I hear enough of your comments that the award doesn't go away with alpa off property. If that's the case, then let the game play out. You'll be able to cash in your lottery ticket and reap the rewards.....eventually......or are you afraid that the ticket will be found to be a fraud?
 
PCL: Your career has been nothing but paying for your job and a wild ride up the ladder.....

Ah, playing the PFT card as usual. No logical arguments or facts? Just throw out the PFT card. :rolleyes:

to say the USAir East guys are morons when you have had to endure nothing that they have had to removes all doubt who the moron is.

What you've had to "endure" has nothing to do with anything. What matters is the rule of law. The law will not allow you to void the seniority arbitration award, no matter how much you've had to "endure," and no matter whether you decertify or not. This is an exercise in futility that will only harm your own pilot group and the entire profession in the end.

Further proof is the fact that you would follow ALPA into outer space without even a thought of the consequences.

I don't even know what this means.
 
PCL: Does the truth sting a little? Was anything in my post about your career inaccurate?

Enduring hardships has everything to do with the topic at hand. The USAir pilots, under the rule of ALPA, have endured more BS than any pilot group in history. Was some of it self induced? You bet. Was some of it heaped upon them when they needed the help the most by a decrepit, out of touch, and outdated association that has failed to adapt to the changing needs of the very constituents it represents.......ABSOLUTELY.

So while you have your opinion, it is framed from your perspective.....which might differ from the average airline pilot who was hired when you were in grade school. That somehow you have thus far in your career stumbled into success, many others have not fared so well. Further, the fact that you landed with a company that has its own in house union, who has enjoyed success while ALPA carriers have floundered speaks volumes.

Since you are such an pro-ALPA zealot, I suspect that you will be supporting an ALPA card drive at AirTran.

Good luck with that!

BTW, the USAirways east pilots are not interested in decertifying ALPA to have the Nicolau award thrown out, although if it can be that would be great. They are interested in calling ALPA out so that they answer for the inadequacies of the very group that should have protected them. Further, time is on their side. If they can delay the implementation of the award for a few years, the attrition that should have been theirs will be theirs. The AWA pilots can enjoy their great contract and the East guys can go on with their lives as well. Decertifying ALPA will not destroy the profession.

A350
 
Last edited:
PCL: Does the truth sting a little? Was anything in my post about your career inaccurate?

Sting? Not at all. In case you haven't noticed, I never try to hide my career path. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation at hand. If you want to have a PFT discussion, then by all means, go start the 10,000th thread that deals with that dead horse topic.

Enduring hardships has everything to do with the topic at hand. The USAir pilots, under the rule of ALPA, have endured more BS than any pilot group in history. Was some of it self induced? You bet. Was some of it heaped upon them when they needed the help the most by a decrepit, out of touch, and outdated association that has failed to adapt to the changing needs of the very constituents it represents.......ABSOLUTELY.

You're blaming the Association for things that it had no control over. Your blame should be directed at the RLA, the bankruptcy laws, President Bush and his lapdog NMB, the various scumbag managers that USAir has had over the years, etc... ALPA is not responsible for the hardships of the AAA pilots. I know you guys would like to find an easy scapegoat to make yourselves feel better, but ALPA isn't the evil force that you pretend it to be.

Further, the fact that you landed with a company that has its own in house union, who has enjoyed success while ALPA carriers have floundered speaks volumes.

This airline has had success, but this union has not. If you want to see just how effective an in-house union is, then by all means, stop by the AirTran TA threads and see just how wonderful life without ALPA can be. Pay particular attention to all of the pilots calling for ALPA representation because our own union is so incompetent. Gee, don't you want to join the non-ALPA club? [/sarcasm]

Since you are such an pro-ALPA zealot, I suspect that you will be supporting an ALPA card drive at AirTran.

I'll support ALPA at AirTran if the majority of the pilots at this airline decide that that's what they want. I certainly hope that they come to that conclusion, since I definitely feel that having ALPA representation is in our best interests, but it's up to the majority. I hope the majority of the pilots at AAA and AWA make the right decision and stay with ALPA.

They are interested in calling ALPA out so that they answer for the inadequacies of the very group that should have protected them.

If you want to "call someone out," then I suggest you look at your own MEC. This issue never should have gone to arbitration in the first place, and after it did go to arbitration, it was horribly mismanaged. ALPA National does not get involved in the seniority integration debate at individual carriers. The C & BLs prohibits it. The direction that your MEC took was based entirely on their own strategy, not that of ALPA National. Place the blame where it belongs.
 
I don't get it. The arbitration will still stand. All the East will have done is nail their shoes to the train tracks. Apparently they can't see whats a comin'.
 
You are sueing us and you want empathy???! Don't forget the fact that many east pilots have stated they will never vote in a joint contract; thus holding all our wages down at industry bottom levels. Lets not forget that the east MEC did not want to give west pilots access to your jumpseats.....and you want empathy....lol. Every step of the merger process was followed and agreed to by both parties. You guys epitomize poor sportsmanship.

The west voted NOT to let the east have pay parity during negotiations. Last I checked YOU are making more than the EAST guys.

Who is holding whom down? What goes around comes around my friend. Lifes a Bi*ch isnt it?
 
We voted that down after the East refused to play by the rules. Do you really think that being a weasel with no integrity will payoff in the end? Don't bet on it.
 
Mick - you are a hypocrite.

You sue us, you attempt to throw out binding arbitration because you don't like the results, you violate the TA by pulling out of joint negotiations, you delay like children in an attempt to hoard any and all good from the merger as your and yours only, you threaten to throw out ALPA and start anew with a union whose stated goal is DOH seniority and nothing else......BUT, you want our support as you withdraw from negotiations and demand pay parity.

F%ck you buddy. Damn right we don't support your BS ploy for pay parity. You want a f&cking raise, then fight with us for a change. You guys are off your rockers and the hanging will commence shortly - you've finally let out enough rope.
 
I believe that the main reason that they are being call whiners is because they welcomed the arbitration, and then got pissed off when Nic ruled the way that he did. IOW, they said "we'll play by the rules", until they realized that they didn't like them.
 
The west voted NOT to let the east have pay parity during negotiations. Last I checked YOU are making more than the EAST guys.

Who is holding whom down? What goes around comes around my friend. Lifes a Bi*ch isnt it?

US East A330, 767, 757 Capts and FO's make more than AWA guys. AWA make more on the A320/737.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top