2000 hour wonders hired at Delta

[HA25]

It's all over the place. Keep in mind that we're talking actual dollars paid in taxes.

which corresponds to actual dollars earned/made.. so it's apples to apples.

The bottom 40% of the population pays 0% (or 0 dollars) in taxes! Take a good hard look at the rest of the numbers and then let me know if you feel the same way about middle class.

I do... since the middle class are far more likely to earn a "Wage" rather than earn wealth and income in other ways, such as equity or capital gains.. both of which are taxed at a lower rate under current law...

Good for her! But, uhm, have you actually seen your sisters tax return and do you have a complete picture of her financials?

I am her and her husbands' investment advisor and work with their CPA at tax time to minimize her taxes under current law. I know EXACTLY how much they paid .. I also know that 76% of their last years income, earnings and gains wasn't even taxed (legally).

Yes! Like investing in other companies, (BUYING stock) -

Depreciation of assets (but first you have to BUY something before it can be depreciated!)


Airline travel write-offs for business meetings (hopefully on an aircraft that you pilot!) But first you have to BUY something before you can make that trip

Follow me on this a sec..

Millionaire buys a private jet.. and adds it onto a FAR 135 certificate at a friend/business partner's air taxi.. millionaire pays their pilots $50-70K/yr with some benefits.. and therefore creates 3 lower middle class jobs. Add to that 1 A&P @ $50K/yr... The airplane has a capitalized cost of $20M.. and he uses a straight line (DDB) depreciation schedule over 5 years, so $4M/yr is now being offset against "income" from the business OR (and this is key) any other captain gains income that the owner has.. so this person, who might have taken home a paid wage of $500,000/yr but $25M in capital gains now has an effective $21M in capital gains for tax purposes, thus "hiding" $4M from taxes (legally)... BUT.. here's the beautiful part.. at the end of 5 years, when there is no more depreciation to be had, the aircraft is then sold as "salvage" for maybe 50-60% of what was paid for it... thus returning 10-12M into the coffers... the net result is 20M is saved taxes on capital gains, the use of a private jet, AND all it cost them was $8M..

This my friend is why the "rich" don't pay themselves a $65,000,000 "Salary"... but rather pay themselves $500,000 or something, and the other $64,500,000 in "other income"..

3 martini lunches that support not just the rest owner BUT all the illegals bussing tables, and this list goes on and on. The common denominator is that most tax write offs require that the person or company BUY something!

BUYING something is how the economy grows and how jobs are created. Without that single feature, I don't care if you're a lib or full conserv, nothing else matters because the economy is doomed.

here's another one for you.... when my sister and brother in law earn an extra million or two they don't spend it.. they usually invest a part and retain a part via cash, annuity or bonds.. so that extra million might benefit the economy at some level as invested capital, but not anywhere near as much as if that $1M went into the hands of a bunch of people making $50K yr as a pay raise (of lets' say $5K/yr),... the employee (or wage earner) that is living pay check to pay check is going to spend 99% of that $5K and therefore benefit the economy far more than the retained $1M the "owner" keeps.

This is why we pilots in "labor" should never relent on taking more and more wages .. it's a 0 sum game.. either we get the added wage, or the owners (investors, etc..) keep it.. is your labor worth anything to you?

 

[waveflyer]

the top 1% of income earners pay as much tax as the lower 90%, that sure makes others happy!

This thead has drifted everywhere- may as well get to taxes-
And the constant whining about them!

Warren Buffett issued a challenge- he'd give a $Million to any one if his peers who would publicly admit they pay less as a percentage of income than their secretaries do.

The poster above has it right I'm not worried about the top 1/2% - they have more loopholes than you can imagine- it's te top 1%-9% that is getting shafted as they don't have the same shelters available to them.

Complaining the bottom 40% doesn't pay taxes is idiotic. Ever hear that you can't get blood out of a rock? They don't have an income to pay from- try to remember that a gallon of milk or gas costs the same for each class- while a loan is much cheaper for us- you guys sound like you're pissed that the tax system could promote upward mobility- we really don't want those with talent and drive to be held down under the thumb of economics.

And if you're too retarded to think that can't happen- go to south america and see how the enormous gap between rich and poor is working out for those countries-
And hint: america is heading that direction.

 

[CessnaFan]

Still more to come.....

which corresponds to actual dollars earned/made.. so it's apples to apples.

But that still doesn't change the fact of the original post, that 1% of the people pay the same or more in tax dollars then the lower 90%.



Follow me on this a sec..

Millionaire buys a private jet.. and adds it onto a FAR 135 certificate at a friend/business partner's air taxi.. millionaire pays their pilots $50-70K/yr with some benefits.. and therefore creates 3 lower middle class jobs. Add to that 1 A&P @ $50K/yr... The airplane has a capitalized cost of $20M.. and he uses a straight line (DDB) depreciation schedule over 5 years, so $4M/yr is now being offset against "income" from the business OR (and this is key) any other captain gains income that the owner has.. so this person, who might have taken home a paid wage of $500,000/yr but $25M in capital gains now has an effective $21M in capital gains for tax purposes, thus "hiding" $4M from taxes (legally)... BUT.. here's the beautiful part.. at the end of 5 years, when there is no more depreciation to be had, the aircraft is then sold as "salvage" for maybe 50-60% of what was paid for it... thus returning 10-12M into the coffers...

But you're not going into the 2nd or 3rd layer of what that 20 Mil purchase did. What was the sales tax on that jet? How many jobs are created to build a new jet by the jet factory? Who fuels the jet? Who delivers that fuel to the airport? Who processes that fuel? Who gets that fuel out of the ground as oil? Who hangars the jet? Who sells replacement parts to the jet? Who makes those replacement parts? Who earns a commission on selling that jet 2 x's? The 20Mil investment goes on and on creating countless jobs.




the net result is 20M is saved taxes on capital gains, the use of a private jet, AND all it cost them was $8M..

Long term capital gains tax is 15%. When you sell an aircraft that has been depreciated, there will be “depreciation recapture” – income tax will be paid on the amount of gain. The gain is the amount that the sales price exceeds the adjusted basis of the aircraft. This recapture will be taxed as ordinary income, not capital gains. So taking all of this into account, how much are they really saving/hiding in real dollars compared to what they spent?

 

[CessnaFan]

Oh no, the Warren Buffet card again....

This thead has drifted everywhere- may as well get to taxes-
And the constant whining about them!

Warren Buffett issued a challenge- he'd give a $Million to any one if his peers who would publicly admit they pay less as a percentage of income than their secretaries do.

That's brilliant, assuming that you never die! Ever hear of the 55% (yes 55%) estate tax? Any idea what that is?



The poster above has it right I'm not worried about the top 1/2% - they have more loopholes than you can imagine- it's te top 1%-9% that is getting shafted as they don't have the same shelters available to them.

Wait, different tax laws for different earners? I'm missing something here.....





Complaining the bottom 40% doesn't pay taxes is idiotic. Ever hear that you can't get blood out of a rock? They don't have an income to pay from- try to remember that a gallon of milk or gas costs the same for each class- while a loan is much cheaper for us- you guys sound like you're pissed that the tax system could promote upward mobility- we really don't want those with talent and drive to be held down under the thumb of economics.

I don't want blood from anything, I just want folks to work as hard as I do.



And if you're too retarded to think that can't happen- go to south america and see how the enormous gap between rich and poor is working out for those countries-
And hint: america is heading that direction.

Hard for me to compare the greatest industrialized and capitalist democracy in the history of the planet earth with a 3rd world entity......nice try though

 

[waveflyer]

Oh I know- the Warren Buffett card is so wrong ... Why listen to a humble midwest multi billionaire who's created more jobs than just about any other millionaire you just described- and the average netjet job is better than 90% of most other corporate gigs-

I've said it before- supply side economics does work- as long as enough people have the money- I don't hate the rich- I just think the country works better with a hundred people worth $3M than 1 worth $300M-

So avoid the growing gap between the rich and poor and the shrinking middle class- bc trickle down economics does not fix that- otherwise we wouldn't have experienced this mess after bowing down to the trickle down gods for the last decade

 

[dillfer]

Most people don't have money because they're not good with money. Look at all the people that win the lottery that just blow there money. The guy with the rich sister, maybe if she doesn't pay enough in taxes, maybe she ought to just give some more money to the government if you guys are so sure that the government can spend her money better than she can. Or maybe she ought to donate some of her millions. She probably won't though because rich people typically don't give a large part of there fortune away, because they're good with there money.

 

[waveflyer]

God- the dumb political one liner- "you think the govt can spend your money better than you..."
What a bullsh/t statement

 

[CessnaFan]

Warren's cool....

and like any other successful business person he is a good seller. Good sellers focus on the positives of their message. The fact that folks quote his statements without really looking into it was my point. It's rather foolish to blindly listen to folks, even if they are "Uncle Warren". The 55% estate tax is real, and NOBODY ever escapes death, so his statement, while well intended, is not accurate.

YES, he has created jobs! That's exactly my point! Let the business people continue to contribute to society by doing what they do best: GROWING their business. As a business person I can attest to this 1 simple fact: GROWING a business requires employees. The less tax that I pay any given day the more money that I have to invest (ie create jobs!) in my business. This is just such a simple concept I don't get how folks can't grasp it.....

Oh I know- the Warren Buffett card is so wrong ... Why listen to a humble midwest multi billionaire who's created more jobs than just about any other millionaire you just described- and the average netjet job is better than 90% of most other corporate gigs-

I've said it before- supply side economics does work- as long as enough people have the money- I don't hate the rich- I just think the country works better with a hundred people worth $3M than 1 worth $300M-

So avoid the growing gap between the rich and poor and the shrinking middle class- bc trickle down economics does not fix that- otherwise we wouldn't have experienced this mess after bowing down to the trickle down gods for the last decade

 

[CessnaFan]

What about this?

In the past decade, the nine states with the highest personal income tax rates have seen gross state product increase by 59.8%, personal income grow by 51%, and population increase by 6.1%. The nine states with no personal income tax have seen gross state product increase by 86.3%, personal income grow by 64.1%, and population increase by 15.5%.

Just a coincidence????

God- the dumb political one liner- "you think the govt can spend your money better than you..."
What a bullsh/t statement

 

[HA25]

In the past decade, the nine states with the highest personal income tax rates have seen gross state product increase by 59.8%, personal income grow by 51%, and population increase by 6.1%. The nine states with no personal income tax have seen gross state product increase by 86.3%, personal income grow by 64.1%, and population increase by 15.5%.

Just a coincidence????

I got an idea then... lets get rid of all taxes and that way we can all live like it was the reign of King Henry VIII again... the poor can just struggle and make due with what the Church can give them, and the rich and powerful can live in castles and collect the fruits of their land and capital.

 

[BoilerUP]

I got an idea then... lets get rid of all taxes and that way we can all live like it was the reign of King Henry VIII again... the poor can just struggle and make due with what the Church can give them, and the rich and powerful can live in castles and collect the fruits of their land and capital.

I've got a better idea.

How about we scrap the progressive federal income tax system and shift to a flat tax/FairTax? No income tax and instead a federal sales tax on all purchases (perhaps with an exemption for things like food, etc). That way, everybody pays taxes based on their consumption.

Isn't it "fair" to require everyone to contribute to the national coffers?

Think of how much spending could be shaved from the federal budget if you didn't need tens of thousands of IRS employees to manage, collect, and litigate based on a stupidly complicated tax code...

 

[dillfer]

God- the dumb political one liner- "you think the govt can spend your money better than you..."
What a bullsh/t statement

Actually that would be a "bullsh/t" question waveflyer. Just because you've heard it before, that doesn't make it a dumb political one liner. If you can't understand that the wealthy already pay there fair share of taxes than you are a moron. Give the rich back more of there money and they will spend it. Pretty easy to figure out. Either by job creation or by spending it on sh!t that supports everybody else. And no, I don't think the government can spend my money better than I can. Glad to see that you do. Keep volunteering your time. It's very noble of you. What you ought to do is donate at least half your check every month to the charity of your choice. That's what the rich do, although they don't get to pick the charity.

 

[HA25]

Give the rich back more of there money and they will spend it. ...

really?? I don't know too many "rich" people living paycheck to paycheck... most of them just take the money over and above what they spend and save it.. or invest it into global funds, bonds and other intangibles..

 

[IAHERJ]

The problem with giving the "rich" more money is that they don't spend it the way the middle class spends it. Robert Reich accurately points out in his new book that part of the problem in the last recession was the "idle rich" making outlandish investments(derivatives etc.) that sped up the crash we saw. They don't tend to purchase goods etc. made in this country. They invest in speculative investments that will garner big returns in the "virtual" marketplace.

 

[BoilerUP]

The problem with giving the "rich" more money is that they don't spend it the way the middle class spends it.

True...but in the case of the "rich" who derive their wealth from the value of their businesses, they use "more money" to make capital expenditures that help that business grow (computers, cars, property, aircraft, desks, hiring new staff, etc).

All those things help the economy grow, which is why it is universally accepted that raising taxes in the midst of an economic downturn is economically stupid.

Like anything there are many shades of gray, and many different levels of "wealth". I'm not talking about Wall Street billionaires and F500-CEOs with a net worth in the 9 figure range...but those considered "rich" by you and me and many others who put their wealth to work on a daily basis in a way that not only increases their bottom line, but provides massive economic benefits for local & national economies.

Think about what is happening in Wichita right now. Tens of thousands of aerospace workers have been laid off from Cessna, Bombardier & HawkerBeech due to the sharp drop in aircraft orders. Who buys a "luxury" new business jets? Businesses & the "fat cat" wealthy. In the case of Wichita and the state of Kansas as a whole, their economy is falling off a cliff with huge unemployment and cascading business failures because of 1. the economic downturn and 2. the vilification of the "rich".

I'm not giving the "reckless rich" a free pass on their greedy actions that helped sharpen the pain we've all felt...but again, there are many shades of gray when it comes to the "rich" that don't tend to fit populist talking points.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Its funny how you folks stick up for the rich. The richest guy on the board is probably NJOwner (with all due respect), shuffling around from deal to deal. Not a line pilot or an NJ pilot or retired "millionaire" pilot. You're all broke in comparison.

 

[jonjuan]

Its funny how you folks stick up for the rich. The richest guy on the board is probably NJOwner (with all due respect), shuffling around from deal to deal. Not a line pilot or an NJ pilot or retired "millionaire" pilot. You're all broke in comparison.

Jealous much? Don't be a hater.

 

[HA25]

True...but in the case of the "rich" who derive their wealth from the value of their businesses, they use "more money" to make capital expenditures that help that business grow (computers, cars, property, aircraft, desks, hiring new staff, etc).

So would you mind explaining to us the 2,000,000,000,000 in cash sitting in the coffers of big business today that could otherwise be used to invest in new jobs, manufacturing, equipment or God forbid higher wages (and thus more spending by us consumers)? There is a record amount of idle capital on hand today and giving them further tax cuts (or keeping the Bush tax cuts) will not suddenly and magically loosen their wallets..

Not advocating all out socialism, but there is a happy balance... and the pendulum has been swinging towards business since the early 80's... the same time debt has sky rocketed.. productivity has sky rocketed and wages and quality of life have taken a plunge..

What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Jealous much? Don't be a hater.

I am jealous (who wouldn't be), but realistic. I know what benefits me and my ilk. What some espouse here on the board is not in their best interest, especially when it comes to taxes.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

So would you mind explaining to us the 2,000,000,000,000 in cash sitting in the coffers of big business today that could otherwise be used to invest in new jobs, manufacturing, equipment or God forbid higher wages (and thus more spending by us consumers)? There is a record amount of idle capital on hand today and giving them further tax cuts (or keeping the Bush tax cuts) will not suddenly and magically loosen their wallets..

Not advocating all out socialism, but there is a happy balance... and the pendulum has been swinging towards business since the early 80's... the same time debt has sky rocketed.. productivity has sky rocketed and wages and quality of life have taken a plunge..

What's wrong with this picture?

Interest rates are low. Companies are borrowing and saving, but not hiring. They're financing their future, now, while rates are low. It's not trickling down at all.