2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[CrewDawg]

This thread just keeps getting better!!!!

Back on topic, doing some low levels this week, planning my RTB from one particular route, and had to add a few hundred extra pounds of gas to my bingo. Why? Gasp, because even the military forces you to avoid MOA's and Restricted areas when they are active. What an idea, and I'm in a fairly high performance aircraft.

I'm with Luke on this one, put that guy in the pit on a defensive ride and let him see just what goes on in those MOA's.

Again, you have all the right in the world to fly through a MOA. If it's cold fly to your hearts desire, if it's hot please just talk to someone! Don't forget if he hit each other, I have a parachute to get me down, how about you?

 

[JungleJett]

Wow..this thing has grown some legs! While I am not proud to have opened this can of worms, maybe some will use some judgment when operating in an active MOA...that goes for both sides of the house.

If you do NOT exercise that judgment, some paint may get traded or worse...and the guy/gal in the chute will be able to tell his side of the story...maybe to a board looking for his wings. The civilian guy may not have the luxury of his story being told...just a bunch of posters asking why in the world someone would blast through an MOA that was active.

By the way...after having flown with TCAS for the past 9 years, I find my head in the cockpit more than it should be. Nothing takes the place of a good scan.

 

[Deuce130]

Last week I had to hold above 20K in a MOA while a twin decided to tour the airspace which resulted in a planned 1 v 1 mission above 20K when we had an original planned floor of 9K..ie..loss of training!

This is applies to most of the CIV guys throwing out spears on the MILITARY SECTION...SUCK IT! Ohhh yes I know what the next word coming out of your sucks will be..arrogance..ego...yes I do. Bottom line is, all of the fighter guys on the MILITARY POST are better than you. When I land at an FBO, I don't come up to your CIV plane jizzing all over it. Ohh yes, you're the guys that tell me you would've been a fighter pilot but....yeah, yeah..blahh.blahh.

Next time you are out flying and multiple SA-6's get shot at you, then you have to make a decision to drop weapons in close proximity of our brothers on the ground, I 'll have a beer with ya. Don't bore me with the shots you are taking at the good dudes on this post whom have worn the uniform. Some of you are such pricks that you keep throwing out "Top Gun" quotes..get over it!

After reading the last 10 pages I wasn't going to post but do you want to know something? I hate all of you!

Love, Angry Taz

This is why many civilian pilots don't like us and could not give one rat's a** for what we think.

 

[imacdog]

Taz is my hero.

 

[SIG600]

Whaaa....whaaa..sob, sob..that civillian made me fly at 20k...sob...sob...instead of my planned 9k...sob...sob...I hate them all...sob...sob...

Are all of the officers in your unit such crybabies?

Why are you still here? A 400 hour Nugget Hornet pilot has more clout in this discussion than you and your PPL.

Did you seriously list every variant of single engine Cessna you've flown in your profile? What's the difference in gross weight, like 600 lbs? (That's rhetorical... I've got more time in all of those than you.)

 

[Occam's Razor]

Flying through an active MOA is like buying your kid Superman pajamas and a bunk bed. It's perfectly legal...and doesn't actually cause your kid's broken arm...but please don't act surprised if it happens.

 

[Mamma]

This is why many civilian pilots don't like us and could not give one rat's a** for what we think.

Why do you care? If a civilian pilot wants to dislike an entire group of military pilots based on the actions of a very few then why do you care if they like you or any of us for that matter? I could care less what a person like that thinks. Anyway, I think you are wrong in regards to many civilian pilots disliking us as a whole.

 

[NuGuy]

Why do you care? If a civilian pilot wants to dislike an entire group of military pilots based on the actions of a very few then why do you care if they like you or any of us for that matter? I could care less what a person like that thinks. Anyway, I think you are wrong in regards to many civilian pilots disliking us as a whole.

Heyas,

No, but arrogant twerps just add another data point to the stereotype.

You never know when that civie person is the guy across the desk interviewing you. Today's Pilatus driver could be tomorrow's chief pilot.

Nu

 

[Mamma]

Point is, there are arrogant twerps on both sides. No reason to castigate an entire group based on the actions of a few.

 

[Bjammin]

Why do you care? If a civilian pilot wants to dislike an entire group of military pilots based on the actions of a very few then why do you care if they like you or any of us for that matter? I could care less what a person like that thinks. Anyway, I think you are wrong in regards to many civilian pilots disliking us as a whole.

Some stupid, arrogant words by one can affect the opinion of many and I care for a number of reasons:

1. I want civilian pilots to listlen when we have something important to say and respect our opinion when it comes to some points of aircraft operation.

2. I don't want new guys to get sh!t on for the actions of those that came before.

3. I want military members that come back embraced by flags and carried by six to be respected and mourned properly.

4. I don't want someone civilian with Cesena and a beef to do something stupid around a MOA or my wingman.

5. I want folks to attend airshows and buy squadron gidunk so we can get better booze for the grog.:beer:

We work for all civilians on this board and thus need to take the higher ground. We have very valid points on many flying issues, but if we don't have the respect of the folks that pay our fuel bill then we will never be heard, just shunned.

 

[SIG600]

but if we don't have the respect of the folks that pay our fuel bill then we will never be heard, just shunned.

As long as those same folks that pay the bill understand that every time an event has to be knocked off because of MOA intrusion... that fuel bill goes up. Not only that, but the loss of man hours spent planning, maintaining, operating jets. If said MOA intrusion results in a mid-air... you can figure out the cost.

How about taking the conservative/responsible approach as a professional aviator (a trait I question by a few here), and make a phone call prior to entering? Or call the controlling agency airborn if you're incapable of following FAR's and doing all appropriate pre-flight planning. Or even go around.

 

[cjdriver]

Some stupid, arrogant words by one can affect the opinion of many and I care for a number of reasons:

1. I want civilian pilots to listlen when we have something important to say and respect our opinion when it comes to some points of aircraft operation.

2. I don't want new guys to get sh!t on for the actions of those that came before.

3. I want military members that come back embraced by flags and carried by six to be respected and mourned properly.

4. I don't want someone civilian with Cesena and a beef to do something stupid around a MOA or my wingman.

5. I want folks to attend airshows and buy squadron gidunk so we can get better booze for the grog.:beer:

We work for all civilians on this board and thus need to take the higher ground. We have very valid points on many flying issues, but if we don't have the respect of the folks that pay our fuel bill then we will never be heard, just shunned.

When I see a post like this it restores my faith that the people we hire to operate our war machines have the maturity and judgement to do the right thing, always. Turning on a civilian corporate jet is not an example of that. I don't think a thinking man would categorize an entire pilot group based on the words or actions of a few.
By the way, we've wasted billions on this chicken sh!t op in Iraq, still without getting the sob that killed our neighbors. Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

 

[McGillicutty]

When I see a post like this it restores my faith that the people we hire to operate our war machines have the maturity and judgement to do the right thing, always. Turning on a civilian corporate jet is not an example of that. I don't think a thinking man would categorize an entire pilot group based on the words or actions of a few.
By the way, we've wasted billions on this chicken sh!t op in Iraq, still without getting the sob that killed our neighbors. Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

Exactly. I'm certainly not going to think all Astra captains are morons just because one compared the legitimacy of the war in Iraq to flying through MOAs.

 

[SIG600]

Why would I give a rat's a$$ if we spend a few more thousand so I can get through a MOA.

Because when I have to use my weekend, locked in the vault mission planning (and not at home or with family when I already work 12 hours a day during the week), and I invest 7-8 or more hours doing it, then my hop gets canx'd because you're trolling through the MOA... it makes me WANT to shoot your ass down! I'm not exagerating either. It's 1700 on a Friday, I'm still stuck at work, and I'll be here this weekend planning for a flight on Monday which in all reality will be a .8. If you come beboppoing through the MOA... I may just trip an RA and say I never saw you (that's sarcasm for you types with no sense of humor).

Plus being a "CRJ driver" I suspect you're on an IFR flight plan 99% of the time, and thus non of this applies because even ATC has the smarts to not send traffic through.

 

[tankerswede]

Whaaa....whaaa..sob, sob..that civillian made me fly at 20k...sob...sob...instead of my planned 9k...sob...sob...I hate them all...sob...sob...

Are all of the officers in your unit such crybabies?

And the difference between this and "whaaa...whaaa..sob, sob..that F-16 made my TCAS give an RA...sob...sob...I had to declare an emergency to fly into Class A airspace VFR...sob...sob...I want to file a complaint...sob...sob..." is what?

I have my own idea of what the answer is - the question is rhetorical.

I got floors put under me many times in the MOA while some VFR traffic went through and ATC built the Bozo Bubble around them. I was doing TP stalls and slow flight with primary students, not BFM, so it wasn't as high an impact (pardon the pun) on us as the fighter community but it still affected training. The part that I to this day cannot understand is why about half the time they wouldn't talk to ATC for flight following. ATC will flight follow them through the MOA - they can't stop them. At least give yourself some additional SA and have the radar controller on the same page.

I realize this is apples (UPT) to oranges (F-16 RTU) but it's all produce.

Legal does not equal smart.