100 multi hrs for 5,500 bones

[Fixin2Lnd]

Buschpilot wrote:

"A PFT'r may get the job, but they are going to have a lonely life in this industry. Do it the honest way my friend"

Lonely life? There are plenty of cute flight attendants at the majors. How many are in your 152? Honesty? What does that have to do with PFT?

 

[kilomike]

Hey fixin to land,

all i have to say to you is:

"What a dope you are"!

grow up, kid. that's why i'd rather fly myself than pay someone like you to get me somewhere!! Some of us have that choice, you know.

Child, I think you need some help. your attitude stinks and I can tell from your writing that you think your poop doesn't stink

 

[Fixin2Lnd]

Kilomike,

Good response. Are we name calling now?

If you are going to pee with the tall dogs, you've got to have long legs...

 

[Timebuilder]

Fix'n-

I think you can get a general feel for the mood among most pilots here- from low timers to multiple thousands- regarding PFT. I think that is what was meant about a lonely life; the ostracizing by one's peers of the PFT pilot. I don't care about the cute stew. If you do, you're probably here for the wrong reason, personally speaking.

Somehow, you equate the fact that some majors have hired some PFT pilots as an example of the "advantage" of going the PFT route. Those numbers are small compared to the more "traditional" means of preparation. That's why it's called "traditional".

At 4200 hours, and I have no reason to believe you don't have those hours, I have to wonder why you have a dog in this fight. Is this a defence of how you got your job? How your son will get one? I'm puzzled. Just an idle question, as it's really none of my business.

Often we think that "the ends justify the means". This is often not the case.

 

[SDdriver]

HEY fIXIN2LND

I don't fly king airs dude! I did fly them 135 charter to help get me to the position I am at today. I got paid by the way to fly them. 3 different types also. All PIC turbine, is that worthless to you. It doesn't matter. Ok, guess it did matter.

as far as the other guy asking what to do to get his time, I had all of my ratings and flew traffic watch in a 172 for about 1000 hours and then a charter comapny hired me to fly with them, and I left there and went to where I am now. I never paid one place for initial training, I was paid through training at every place I went. I turned down multiple jobs because I wouldn't pay for training or housing or whatever. You don't have to do it that way, it just hurts everyone. Just be paitent, do whatever flying you can that puts hours in your logbook and money in your pocket and you will get there. Compare the number of guys that got there without PFT and the number that PFT, I think it speaks for itself.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T "Grads"

Once again, I'd be interested in knowing how many of these folks (read that "number") actually advance to a real, paying, non-P-F-T 121 or 135 job after "graduating" from Gulfstream compared to the number who go through the "program." That's the proof of the pudding. I'd also like to know how many who interview for the majors are turned down.

I don't have a great deal of respect for the abilities of airline H.R., but, I'm sure, when they see Gulfstream International Airlines on a resume or job app a red flag is raised. Also, don't forget, captain interview boards see your app and resume, too. They certainly will recognize the name.

Regarding folks with low time, I quote again the old expression: All things cometh to he who waiteth, while he worketh like hell while he waiteth. In other words, no one owes you anything. Go put a new toner cartridge in your printer, purchase some nice bond paper, and mail and/or personally deliver your resume. Job hunting is discouraging and frustrating; I know. All it takes is one response. By the way, that heart surgeon indeed started as an intern or resident pricking fingers before he got his turn in the O.R.

 

[Bluto]

Macfly,
Look at the statistics. How many interviewers/line pilots at the regionals and the majors were once flight instructors? The airlines know that a person with 100 hours of flight instruction given in a Duchess worked hard for every .1 of that 100 hours. Until you have flown for a 121 carrier yourself, you may want to be careful about your assumptions of who they want to hire. They want to hire hard-workers. Willingness to go into debt for your experience doesn't qualify as work in my book. Make your own decisions. I, personally, won't treat someone differently simply because they paid for their training. I think you'll find that I am a minority in that respect. I can say that I will very likely not have much in common with you. Nor will your 100 hours of bought BE1900 time impress me.

p.s. I agree that some instructors could use some recurrent landing practice, but I have seen much worse landings (and flying in general) from know-it-all fresh 300 hour commercial pilots than any group aside from initial students. Based on your vast experience, you may want to reserve judgement on the CFI's out there working hard for their experience.

 

[macfly]

Bluto, I have roomed with several CFI's that worked at busy flight schools. I will not name the school they worked for, but they busted their bum and got treated like crap. I have the upmost respect for any man or women that endure those long hours and short pay to reach thier "end goal" which is become an airline pilot. They indeed payied their dues.

But im going to lump every CFI into the category that airline flying is their "end goal." Some guys that I know personally have chosen it for a career. They simply love to teach.

However, if flying heavy iron is what you want to do, then why not jump right in and go train and fly something with some mass to it? Where else can you get turbo prop training at resonable price??

I truly believe the CFI rating is very improtant to get, you learn a ton of stuff that you will use your entire career. But flying around the patch training plp for their pvt isnt doing much for ya if you WANT a job with the airlines. Pilots want and need 121 training, using equipment that's suitable for such missions.

I'll quote my buddy that had to do his RJ training OVER because he fouled up a step down apc during his final checkride. "I was ill prepared to fly such a machine, Flying pa-34s and C172s did not prepare me for such a hugh leap in machines." He went on to tell me that maybe flying 135s ops <in kings> would have prepared him for the airlines. He also felt guilty about dropping his student load like hot poop as soon as he qot a airline slot.

So please, dont tell me that guys paying thier dues, flight instructing, waiting on the very second thier airline bid comes in, isnt just as detriment to the Career CFI guys, as these PFT are for the hard working 121 pilots.

You wanna talk about driving CFI pay down, talk to the guys that use thier CFI ticket just to get to the airlines. If everyone that wanted to fly for the airlines went to some school and recieved approiate training, flying hvy iron and what not, then the CAREER CFI I'm sure would appreciate it.

Military pilots dont train in 172s to fly F15s, give me a break.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Now, that last statement is true. Military pilots train in 172's to fly F-15's. Thanks for poining that out.

 

[Freight Dog]

Wow, I just waded through the posts about gulfstream.

Questions: Why are all these guys are bashing PFT? Who payed for thier CFI's and such? I'm I missing something? Looks to me like this gulfstream is a another place to train on high preformance aircraft.

All civil pilots PFT at some point in thier flight training, these gulf guys are just taking it to another level.

See what happens when you fly in 90 heat all day with stanking students in a 150. Bitterness just kidding CFI's im not even to that point, but I did get a Multi in FLA, fuggin hot flying! I respect those DAB instructors...ouch!

Besides, at least your flying the 1900 instead of watching students fly all day and log landings. Cant tell you how bad some of the CFIs I've experienced were at handling the airplane. They could recite FARS, but would crack the landing gear in half on most landings.

Anyway, I'm glad I found this place, what a wealth of imformation.

OK dude... I can understand zero experience in the industry given your flight time, so I can only attempt to shed some light and hopefully it will don on you.

First of all... you do not "TRAIN" on Beech 1900 over there for 250 hours. You fly paying passengers under scheduled Part 121 set of regulations. You are a REQUIRED crewmember. What that means is if you are not around, they cannot operate. So now.. here's the dilemma:

1) they need you in order to operate.
2) you need them in order to build time.

So of course, PROFESSIONAL pilots will realize that this should be a paying job and will not stoop to the level to pay to sit in the right seat when they should be paid to be there.

Little dipdunks with no integrity, sense of pride or professionalism will pawn their birth rights, mothers, sisters, whatever it takes... to sit there without regard that they are paying the highest fare aboard while acting as a crewmember.

What does that do for the company? It's great... because they only have 1 of 2 pilots to pay... they pay one, the other pays them just for the privilege to be able to make money for the company. If that doesn't make you feel stupid, then I'd suggest checking with some psychologists/psychiatrists. Not to mention the fact that the pilots are represented by the Teamsters which for the most part, is a joke of a union for representing pilot interests. So now, they are trying to negotiate a contract with Tom Cooper who's a scab S.O.B. anyway. So now tell me, why should he negotiate anything? Is anyone gonna walk because of pi$$-poor way the pilots are treated over there? Nope... why? Because there's another idiot with a check for 20k walking in.

Bottom line... no professionalism, no sense of pride, and not to mention the fact that during these times, where there are thousands of qualified pilots furloughed, you go and pay for what should be a paying job, you are really inviting a lot of anger from those guys. Keep in mind that when the times were good, people were getting hired left and right, and people disagreed with the principle of "buying a required crewmember time." Right now, if I was furloughed, I'd be furious to see some 400 hour wonder plopping down 20k for a REQUIRED crewmember job. Bear in mind that when those guys get recalled, you will NOT be looked on in favorable light.

Hope this clarifies your dilemma.

 

[macfly]

Points well taken feightdog....

You were once a lowtime guy yerself and I appreciate ya not slaming me. I'm a newbie, I know it, but I feel im paying some dues right now, not to mention a boat load of money just to get these ratings.

Its just frustrating to work so hard, and still not be qualified to g et a job. But, I knew this when I started, so I'll just keep pushing on.

 

[TDTURBO]

All I know, if I did this, (flying), for a living, I would be pissed!

I would definitely go out of my way to find and expose those pilots that PFT'ed. I paid my dues as a resident and intern to become a physician and I sure wouldn't like it very much if some rich puke bought his way into the O.R., got his/her quota and started private practice ahead of everyone else.

If others in your profession tolerate this type of advancement without serious protest i.e.; Bluto, I venture to say that you've lost the battle! There must be an ambitious one among you. Get REorganized, hell, this is the information age! Start an organization that addresses this very issue; there is strength in numbers.

The key to your success lies in your ability to convey these concerns to paying passengers. Hurt 'em were it counts, in their bottom line. I know people in general have an "uneasiness" when it comes to flying anyway, it probably wouldn't take much to make them "more" uneasy by informing them that the guy in the right seat, the guy actually flying the plane, is paying to be there and is in fact, a student, because if he wasn't, he/she/it would be compensated accordingly. All I can say is THANK GOD I don't have to kiss a s s to fly, because if I did, I would rather walk!


P.S. Come'on Bluto! You got to make a stand! All you guys need to stick together. Make life miserable for those that buy your jobs. Take no prisoners either, cut the head off the snake now while you still can. Deter future pilots from doing this by making it miserable for the ones that have, and make darn sure the ones that are thinking about PFT know the consequences. If there are no consequences, make some!

 

[macfly]

What it boils down to doc, is that this is the cheapest way to get experience. 18000bones and you get 250hrs worth of turbin experience, plain and simple. Thats not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things, nor is it a ton of time. New car? or get some turbine time? The fact that you might get a job is solely based on preformance. With all the bent feelings towards these pilots, seems like you'd be better off to get your hours and run.

The fact of the matter is you have to get exp to get a job and you need to get a job to get experience.

Experience is experience is experience. Whether you fly someone around teaching them to fly a C172, or you pretend to work for an airline flying 1900s, it still experience right?

Its a flight school, that puts paying passengers on there training flights, i think its quite comical. Obviously its working.

Look at this way doc, if you wanted to become a pilot and you had plenty of money could you blame someone for wanting to get some hands on experience?Politics aside, I dont even know this gooper dude, nor do i care.

macfly

 

[TDTURBO]

McFly,

I certainly would care that a guy bought my job and got it instead of me.

I think the paying passengers would also care. It's not my business but I only wish to make some suggestions. This whole PFTing thing is still in its infancy. If everyone stuck together and forced change, it would be better for all you guys.

That said, I own my own plane, fly when I want, take or deny whomever I want and do things MY WAY! The only way if you've earned it.

So many of you guys sweat your balls off building time only to get denied a job because some rich puke bought your job, it makes me sick and I'm not even in the game like you guys. I enjoy fights like this though; I may take it upon myself to do something about your plight. I don't think it's fair and those that advance this way need to be punished! Pure and Simple!

 

[PositiveRate]

Wow....you guys must have a lot of free time to banter like this.

Stop the bitching already. I was at a Comair interview a few weeks ago and there were 5 Comair Aviation Academy instructors there mixed in with a bunch of furloughees (myself) and military guys. They had, no joke, like 1020TT and 100-110ME. How'd they get that interview....by paying a bunch of money to train with the school, then getting paid very little to instruct. I gaurantee I will see some, if not all of them in class...I cannot say that about the other interviewees.

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, if I had the money to do that when I was starting out, I would have. Instead, I had to spend a bunch of time teaching in a piece of crap seminole. What was I thinking while talking to them?.....money well spent. Once you're in that door, it's a level playing field...it's what you do with the opportunity that counts. If you got in the door because of an interview gaurantee or because you had 250 turbine multi and are able to convince them that you are / will be a safe, competent, and attentive FO, you've got a great chance at the job.

Everyone that's been crapping on the low time guys should be ashamed. Who are you to say that your way is better or that the "traditional" way is the only way? If United said anyone with 500hrs who is a female minority, come on down...how many of you wouldn't go if you fit that profile?

Hmmm....what's that on your shoulder...a chip? I'm sick of these threads that start off with benevolent intentions and turn into pissing matches. The time in your log book (paid or unpaid) is of small consequence in an airline interview. It's your attitude, aptitude and integrity that will get you a job because these are things you cannot hide.