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100 multi hrs for 5,500 bones

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bobbysamd

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P-F-T "Grads"

Once again, I'd be interested in knowing how many of these folks (read that "number") actually advance to a real, paying, non-P-F-T 121 or 135 job after "graduating" from Gulfstream compared to the number who go through the "program." That's the proof of the pudding. I'd also like to know how many who interview for the majors are turned down.

I don't have a great deal of respect for the abilities of airline H.R., but, I'm sure, when they see Gulfstream International Airlines on a resume or job app a red flag is raised. Also, don't forget, captain interview boards see your app and resume, too. They certainly will recognize the name.

Regarding folks with low time, I quote again the old expression: All things cometh to he who waiteth, while he worketh like hell while he waiteth. In other words, no one owes you anything. Go put a new toner cartridge in your printer, purchase some nice bond paper, and mail and/or personally deliver your resume. Job hunting is discouraging and frustrating; I know. All it takes is one response. By the way, that heart surgeon indeed started as an intern or resident pricking fingers before he got his turn in the O.R.
 

Bluto

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Macfly,
Look at the statistics. How many interviewers/line pilots at the regionals and the majors were once flight instructors? The airlines know that a person with 100 hours of flight instruction given in a Duchess worked hard for every .1 of that 100 hours. Until you have flown for a 121 carrier yourself, you may want to be careful about your assumptions of who they want to hire. They want to hire hard-workers. Willingness to go into debt for your experience doesn't qualify as work in my book. Make your own decisions. I, personally, won't treat someone differently simply because they paid for their training. I think you'll find that I am a minority in that respect. I can say that I will very likely not have much in common with you. Nor will your 100 hours of bought BE1900 time impress me.

p.s. I agree that some instructors could use some recurrent landing practice, but I have seen much worse landings (and flying in general) from know-it-all fresh 300 hour commercial pilots than any group aside from initial students. Based on your vast experience, you may want to reserve judgement on the CFI's out there working hard for their experience.
 

macfly

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Bluto, I have roomed with several CFI's that worked at busy flight schools. I will not name the school they worked for, but they busted their bum and got treated like crap. I have the upmost respect for any man or women that endure those long hours and short pay to reach thier "end goal" which is become an airline pilot. They indeed payied their dues.

But im going to lump every CFI into the category that airline flying is their "end goal." Some guys that I know personally have chosen it for a career. They simply love to teach.

However, if flying heavy iron is what you want to do, then why not jump right in and go train and fly something with some mass to it? Where else can you get turbo prop training at resonable price??

I truly believe the CFI rating is very improtant to get, you learn a ton of stuff that you will use your entire career. But flying around the patch training plp for their pvt isnt doing much for ya if you WANT a job with the airlines. Pilots want and need 121 training, using equipment that's suitable for such missions.

I'll quote my buddy that had to do his RJ training OVER because he fouled up a step down apc during his final checkride. "I was ill prepared to fly such a machine, Flying pa-34s and C172s did not prepare me for such a hugh leap in machines." He went on to tell me that maybe flying 135s ops <in kings> would have prepared him for the airlines. He also felt guilty about dropping his student load like hot poop as soon as he qot a airline slot.

So please, dont tell me that guys paying thier dues, flight instructing, waiting on the very second thier airline bid comes in, isnt just as detriment to the Career CFI guys, as these PFT are for the hard working 121 pilots.

You wanna talk about driving CFI pay down, talk to the guys that use thier CFI ticket just to get to the airlines. If everyone that wanted to fly for the airlines went to some school and recieved approiate training, flying hvy iron and what not, then the CAREER CFI I'm sure would appreciate it.

Military pilots dont train in 172s to fly F15s, give me a break.
 

skydiverdriver

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Now, that last statement is true. Military pilots train in 172's to fly F-15's. Thanks for poining that out.
 

Freight Dog

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macfly said:
Wow, I just waded through the posts about gulfstream.

Questions: Why are all these guys are bashing PFT? Who payed for thier CFI's and such? I'm I missing something? Looks to me like this gulfstream is a another place to train on high preformance aircraft.

All civil pilots PFT at some point in thier flight training, these gulf guys are just taking it to another level.

See what happens when you fly in 90 heat all day with stanking students in a 150. Bitterness :) just kidding CFI's im not even to that point, but I did get a Multi in FLA, fuggin hot flying! I respect those DAB instructors...ouch!

Besides, at least your flying the 1900 instead of watching students fly all day and log landings. Cant tell you how bad some of the CFIs I've experienced were at handling the airplane. They could recite FARS, but would crack the landing gear in half on most landings.

Anyway, I'm glad I found this place, what a wealth of imformation.


OK dude... I can understand zero experience in the industry given your flight time, so I can only attempt to shed some light and hopefully it will don on you.

First of all... you do not "TRAIN" on Beech 1900 over there for 250 hours. You fly paying passengers under scheduled Part 121 set of regulations. You are a REQUIRED crewmember. What that means is if you are not around, they cannot operate. So now.. here's the dilemma:

1) they need you in order to operate.
2) you need them in order to build time.

So of course, PROFESSIONAL pilots will realize that this should be a paying job and will not stoop to the level to pay to sit in the right seat when they should be paid to be there.

Little dipdunks with no integrity, sense of pride or professionalism will pawn their birth rights, mothers, sisters, whatever it takes... to sit there without regard that they are paying the highest fare aboard while acting as a crewmember.

What does that do for the company? It's great... because they only have 1 of 2 pilots to pay... they pay one, the other pays them just for the privilege to be able to make money for the company. If that doesn't make you feel stupid, then I'd suggest checking with some psychologists/psychiatrists. Not to mention the fact that the pilots are represented by the Teamsters which for the most part, is a joke of a union for representing pilot interests. So now, they are trying to negotiate a contract with Tom Cooper who's a scab S.O.B. anyway. So now tell me, why should he negotiate anything? Is anyone gonna walk because of pi$$-poor way the pilots are treated over there? Nope... why? Because there's another idiot with a check for 20k walking in.

Bottom line... no professionalism, no sense of pride, and not to mention the fact that during these times, where there are thousands of qualified pilots furloughed, you go and pay for what should be a paying job, you are really inviting a lot of anger from those guys. Keep in mind that when the times were good, people were getting hired left and right, and people disagreed with the principle of "buying a required crewmember time." Right now, if I was furloughed, I'd be furious to see some 400 hour wonder plopping down 20k for a REQUIRED crewmember job. Bear in mind that when those guys get recalled, you will NOT be looked on in favorable light.

Hope this clarifies your dilemma.
 

macfly

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Points well taken feightdog....

You were once a lowtime guy yerself and I appreciate ya not slaming me. I'm a newbie, I know it, but I feel im paying some dues right now, not to mention a boat load of money just to get these ratings.

Its just frustrating to work so hard, and still not be qualified to g et a job. But, I knew this when I started, so I'll just keep pushing on.
 
T

TDTURBO

All I know, if I did this, (flying), for a living, I would be pissed!

I would definitely go out of my way to find and expose those pilots that PFT'ed. I paid my dues as a resident and intern to become a physician and I sure wouldn't like it very much if some rich puke bought his way into the O.R., got his/her quota and started private practice ahead of everyone else.

If others in your profession tolerate this type of advancement without serious protest i.e.; Bluto, I venture to say that you've lost the battle! There must be an ambitious one among you. Get REorganized, hell, this is the information age! Start an organization that addresses this very issue; there is strength in numbers.

The key to your success lies in your ability to convey these concerns to paying passengers. Hurt 'em were it counts, in their bottom line. I know people in general have an "uneasiness" when it comes to flying anyway, it probably wouldn't take much to make them "more" uneasy by informing them that the guy in the right seat, the guy actually flying the plane, is paying to be there and is in fact, a student, because if he wasn't, he/she/it would be compensated accordingly. All I can say is THANK GOD I don't have to kiss a s s to fly, because if I did, I would rather walk!


P.S. Come'on Bluto! You got to make a stand! All you guys need to stick together. Make life miserable for those that buy your jobs. Take no prisoners either, cut the head off the snake now while you still can. Deter future pilots from doing this by making it miserable for the ones that have, and make darn sure the ones that are thinking about PFT know the consequences. If there are no consequences, make some!
 

macfly

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What it boils down to doc, is that this is the cheapest way to get experience. 18000bones and you get 250hrs worth of turbin experience, plain and simple. Thats not a ton of money in the grand scheme of things, nor is it a ton of time. New car? or get some turbine time? The fact that you might get a job is solely based on preformance. With all the bent feelings towards these pilots, seems like you'd be better off to get your hours and run.

The fact of the matter is you have to get exp to get a job and you need to get a job to get experience.

Experience is experience is experience. Whether you fly someone around teaching them to fly a C172, or you pretend to work for an airline flying 1900s, it still experience right?

Its a flight school, that puts paying passengers on there training flights, i think its quite comical. Obviously its working.

Look at this way doc, if you wanted to become a pilot and you had plenty of money could you blame someone for wanting to get some hands on experience?Politics aside, I dont even know this gooper dude, nor do i care.

macfly
 
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T

TDTURBO

McFly,

I certainly would care that a guy bought my job and got it instead of me.:mad:

I think the paying passengers would also care.:D It's not my business but I only wish to make some suggestions. This whole PFTing thing is still in its infancy. If everyone stuck together and forced change, it would be better for all you guys.

That said, I own my own plane, fly when I want, take or deny whomever I want and do things MY WAY! The only way if you've earned it.

So many of you guys sweat your balls off building time only to get denied a job because some rich puke bought your job, it makes me sick and I'm not even in the game like you guys. I enjoy fights like this though; I may take it upon myself to do something about your plight. I don't think it's fair and those that advance this way need to be punished! Pure and Simple!
:mad:
 

PositiveRate

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Wow....you guys must have a lot of free time to banter like this.

Stop the bitching already. I was at a Comair interview a few weeks ago and there were 5 Comair Aviation Academy instructors there mixed in with a bunch of furloughees (myself) and military guys. They had, no joke, like 1020TT and 100-110ME. How'd they get that interview....by paying a bunch of money to train with the school, then getting paid very little to instruct. I gaurantee I will see some, if not all of them in class...I cannot say that about the other interviewees.

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, if I had the money to do that when I was starting out, I would have. Instead, I had to spend a bunch of time teaching in a piece of crap seminole. What was I thinking while talking to them?.....money well spent. Once you're in that door, it's a level playing field...it's what you do with the opportunity that counts. If you got in the door because of an interview gaurantee or because you had 250 turbine multi and are able to convince them that you are / will be a safe, competent, and attentive FO, you've got a great chance at the job.

Everyone that's been crapping on the low time guys should be ashamed. Who are you to say that your way is better or that the "traditional" way is the only way? If United said anyone with 500hrs who is a female minority, come on down...how many of you wouldn't go if you fit that profile?

Hmmm....what's that on your shoulder...a chip? I'm sick of these threads that start off with benevolent intentions and turn into pissing matches. The time in your log book (paid or unpaid) is of small consequence in an airline interview. It's your attitude, aptitude and integrity that will get you a job because these are things you cannot hide.
 

Timebuilder

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PositiveRate, negative post.

Those Comair academy guys probably paid about the same for their training as the rest of us, and they weren't paid much less as instructors. Their times are consistent with the pre 9-11 hiring times, and they have been pre sreened to the Comair standards, and already received some additional training to make certain they are up to speed. Going back to our theme, they didn't buy a job, they worked as instructors. The intro to the interview was the same as "networking".

The United comment is almost funny. They have been doing what you described for years. I think it has hurt their reputation as an airline, along with that of their female pilots. Yo, nited!

From the feedback I get from those Captains I meet from major airlines (Delta, Continental, USAir....) who have served on hiring boards, it makes a BIG difference, indeed, when someone has PFT'd.

A p***ing match? How about a lively discussion, based on facts and experience? I'd certainly encourage TDTURBO to look into a way of exposing PFT carriers to the flying public. I think they have the right to know that a "student" is in the right seat.

Maybe he's the one who bought the job that you could be working right now.
 

bobbysamd

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Comair "P-F-T"

Not really. I second Timebuilder. I'm not a real fan of CAA, but I will defend it because it is not P-F-T. It is just another flight school that costs money. I am 100% sure that new students are not offered jobs when they enroll, and there is no guarantee that they will get "the interview" or even a CFI job. I'm sure that CAA students are under close scrutiny at all times and have to jump through similar hoops to get an interview as do MAPD grads. The CFIs Comair grads earn can be marketed anywhere. By the way, MAPD grads can interview with Mesa at 300 hours and do not have to instruct. Mesa students are hired upon enrollment, and they have absolutely no guarantee of an interview.

Let me provide another perspective. I worked in radio stations for 19 years before I went to aviation full-time. I worked hard to get to where I was and in so doing worked plenty of lousy hours. Nearly every radio station in which I worked would hire people with far less experience than me and probably for the same or more money than I was paid, and on better shifts to boot. How do you think that made me feel? Compare that to P-F-T and to some of United's hiring practices.

Just more .02 opinions.
 

Timebuilder

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Ah, memory lane.

At one station, they put an intern on as the board op when Stern's program replaced our local morning show. Why pay an employee?

Once, I recommended a woman I had worked with at another station. They put her in the midday slot when the regular was off for a few days, which was the spot I had been angling for.

I love radio. (standard offer of sale of a bridge. Location: Brooklyn....)
 

utahpilot

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hmm, oh well

This debate gets so old, but I have to weigh in.

I recently did a search of the top posters on this board. What I found was that this board is, in fact, a VERY small world. There are lots of registered users, but it is a very SMALL percentage that make up the majority of the posts. So? The opinions expressed here are NOT reflective, necessarily, of those of pilots on hiring boards at the major airlines. Having said that, examine the following scenario:

Two pilots are waiting for their interviews at (fill in blank with DAL, UAL, whatever). They are discussing the usual stuff, and it goes something like this.

Dude: So, what's you're background?
Guy: I was at (blank-Comair, Skyway, Mesa, whatever) for about 5 years. Before that I was a flight instructor. You?
Dude: I was a CFI, too, did some flying with a cargo outfit to build my multi time and experience, then got on with (blank). That was 4 years ago.
Guy: I wish I could've got a cargo job. I ended up instructing for almost 3 years before getting the call.
Dude: I only worked as a CFI for a year. Great experience, but I needed to build my multi time, and where I was at, it was almost impossible. That's why I did the cargo thing. Cost me a ton in loans, but in the long run, it'll get me the seniority I want faster.

ok, same situation for both, right? who knows who'll get the major gig. They're equally qualified. The difference is how long it took each to get there. In the end, it's a matter of years at a major and seniority. Let's look back in time, though, at how they arrived here.

Dude: took out loans, worked hard, made lots of sacrfices of his time, his families time and resources, and got all his instructor ratings. Taught for about a year, then came up against the same problem most do-can't get the job without the time, can't get the time without the job. He took out another loan to fly right seat in a cargo turbine for 250 hours. Got TONS of real world, real weather, real ATC, real LIFE experience that comes with slugging it out in the soup. This experience, though a financial sacrifice, got him more ready for his first 121 job on an RJ. While it was tough to take out more loans, this experience was invaluable and it got him there probably at least a year faster than had he stayed instructing in a Travelair, maybe more.

Guy: took out loans, worked hard, made lots of sacrfices of his time, his families time and resources, and got all his instructor ratings. Taught for about a year, then came up against the same problem most do-can't get the job without the time, can't get the time without the job. Kept at it, and over the next year and a half was able to instruct about 140 hours in a twin. Had a hard time getting interviewed, but finally did and made it to class. Was blown away by turbine systems, but worked hard and made it. Wished he had some turbine experience in real world weather, ATC, etc.

bottom line? IT'S THE EXPERIENCE THAT COUNTS!! I've asked every major airline pilot I know and tons of regional guys, and the consensus is this: Get your time wherever and however you can, the more multi and turbine time, the better. What it all come down to in the end is SENIORITY-it's your pay, your schedule, your equipment. Whoever gets it first wins. Each day, week, month you let go by, someone else is getting it. And that someone else will have Christmas off, will not have to work Thanksgiving, their kid's birthday, etc. Getting the most experience that you can that most resembles the job you want is key.

I guess I've gone on enough. I understand the complaint of some in regards to PFT, but so many are just versions of sour grapes. 'He had more money than me, and that's why he got the job-wah wah wah!' Welcome to the real world. I think most people, folks on this board included, want to get the most experience they can for the least money and arrive at their airline of choice as fast as possible. The idea of buying 250 hours in turbine equipment sounds, to me, like money well spent. And I, like others, don't have it and can't get it from relatives. If I did that, it'd mean another loan. But, in the long run, it could mean achieving my career goals faster and allowing me to do the things I want to do. It's a race to get a number, in the end.

Not all guys who choose to pay 15K for 250 multi hours are scabs, whores, or whatever else you want to call it. Lots are guys with families, bills, etc., and are just trying to build their time and experience so that they can achieve what they set out to do.

I have yet to hear from ANYONE who say 'I interview people at XYZ airline, and I spit in the face of anyone who paid for time. I have heard TONS of comments, however, to the effect of what I've said above: the airlines are as interested in quality of time as much as quantity. Get all the quality time you can, as soon as you can.

Laying myself out in the open to get flamed, I know. Save it. All the points are made above (lots by people who do not fly for an airline and never have). I am well versed in the value judgements placed on this topic, no need for ya'll to review. Think about though. Who between Dude and Guy got the job first at the regional? Dude, who bought a ton of turbine hours, and therefore made his career progress faster. Who is a better pilot? who knows, the interviewers and the sim will tell. Who made the most use of his time and resources to get to this point? Dude, at great risk financially maybe, but he worked it out.

I hope this is taken in the spirit intended. I think that there are lots of ways to get to where you want to in this business. If you're like me, though, I think it's a quality of life issue. Having a higher seniority number makes my quality of life better, puts me first in line to fly more complex equipment, etc.

Sorry for the rant. We're all on the same road, I believe.
 

Freight Dog

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The example you used about "Dude" and "Guy." 250 hours of turbine time where they are *NOT* a required crewmember is flawed. In other words, the plane leaves with them or without them. I'd call that worthless waste of money.

You know.. people with bare multi rating and 1200 hours get hired flying twins all over the country. Some get hired with less than 1200hrs and LESS THAN 10 hours of multi to fly VFR cargo in twins. I know, I'm a living proof and I'm a white male. Although I didn't instruct, people can easily instruct for a year, and if they lack multi time, they can easily find a Part 135 check flying job flying twins to build up their multiengine time and REAL WORLD experience, while getting paid. I know outfits that pay pretty well and alls ya need is 1200 hours. 6 months of hauling checks, and you'll start looking real good to the regionals. Not to mention the small fact that you'll save your 18k while getting even better experience - you are not being babysat by a PIC.

The main difference between a cargo outfit you can fly for and get paid for.... AND Gulfscam and Gulfscam-like programs is simple.. Those schemes are WAY louder and they spend a lot of money on advertising those positions because they can afford to scream: 250 hours of first officer time for 20k and you'll go off to United!!!

But if you are determined to make it, you'll find honorable ways of getting yourself to where you want to be. It boils down to you.
 

utahpilot

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I expected such posts. People who claim that it is 'easy' to get a job flying checks at 1200 hours and little multi don't live in the same world I do. You can't even get a CFI job the way things are right now. My point was, everyone has their own goals and things to deal with. A 20 year old kid with no wife, kids, or bills might look at 2-3 years instructing and another year doing cargo as a good start. A guy who is 33 and made a career change with a house, kids and bills to pay would be foolish to delay the process. The value judgements made by so many are not anything used in the hiring process. People have tried to portray people who have bought time as the scourge of the industry, shunned by all they fly with, scurrying through the terminal hiding their faces. Know what? That is a total lie! Folks get to their jobs in a variety of ways. Who can make judgements about the legitimacy of how they got there should be left to the hiring board, the pilot and his/her family. Remember, this is a job like any other, and people have to consider total career earnings, ability to support a family, retirement and lifestyle issues when making these decisions.

It is not so clear-cut an issue as you would like to paint it as being.
 

Freight Dog

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Ya know... the jobs ARE still there. My buddy who teaches ground school for a cargo outfit says they can't find qualified guys.. I'm sure that's the case at many places. Somehow, I don't think it's just enough to send a resume in there. I think if you want something bad enough, you just may get it. As for a 33 year old example... flying a C-402 for 32k a year would sound like a much better alternative than paying 18k for 250 hours... but that's just me.. but then again what do i know. :)
 

bobbysamd

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Multi time

Another way to look at it is this: Let's say one applicant purchases and flies off 500 hours of multi in a Baron and shows it all in his logbook. Those are his only multi hours. He is not a pleasure pilot who decided to change careers, but set off from Day 1 to be a professional pilot. Another applicant, with the same aspirations as the first guy, purchased and flew off 100 hours to meet insurance quals, got a job instructing, built another 300 hours instructing, and flew checks for another 100. Both are otherwise out of the same cookie cutter. Both bought time. Which applicant will the conehead pilot recruiters be more likely to hire?

Probably the crucible of the interview will determine the answer. Why did one buy 500 hours of time and the other 100 hours? How was it paid for? Loans? Savings? Loan from Mom and Dad? Gift from Mom and Dad or Uncle/Aunt Airline Pilot?

Just some more food for thought.
 
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utahpilot

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spelling it out

maybe. I regularly scour the internet, and I find no jobs.

to illustrate again, let's break it down.

two CFI's are at about 800TT, we'll say about 15 hours multi. They both have the goal of getting to a major someday. We'll say both are married and have one child, with plans for more.

CFI-A pays 13k for a right seat deal with a cargo operator. In 2-3 months he has over 1100 TT and almost 300 ME, most of it turbine. He gets an interview with a regional and is in class 3 months after finishing the cargo gig.

CFI-B keeps on instructing. He takes out a mall loan to get his MEI, and it takes him over a year to get the 1200 TT and 135 mins you discussed (he can't move, his responsibilites to his family prevent it). He gets on flying cargo, and is committed to the usual year contract. He gets great experience and gets into class at a regional 16 months after starting the cargo gig.

who will have a better seniority number, schedule, pay, etc? who realized his goal first? both have issues to deal with as far as moving, debt, etc.

all I'm saying is, whatever works for you. this idea that you're going to be forever black balled is just not true.
 

DCitrus9

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Utah,
Consider this: The guy who breaks into your house and steals your TV and pawns it to feed his kids is also only concerned about the bottom line- he puts food on the table. Using your arguments this is considered acceptable because all that matters is that their is cereal in his kid's bowl in the morning.
Gulfstream is not an acceptable method of building time. It is a job, that means an employer pays you to fly. Not you pay them. Yes, we all have to build time. Spend that same money to rent a plane for fun and fly around with friends, or use it to live off of while flight instructing, but DO NOT pay to sit in a required crewmember's seat on an airliner. The key here is required crewmember: if you don't pay, then they will be forced to PAY YOU for the same turbine time you want so badly.
 
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