You'll be moved...

[Imissmypilot]

Well damn I was wrong about you
"especially the Global and Gulfstream ones who stole what didn't rightfully belong to them" I gotta argue that statement Those airplanes didn't belong to you as much as they belonged to us, they used those airplanes to divide. For how many years did Flexjet talk of buying Gulfstreams? or Globals? I know Kenn talked for years about Gulfstreams? Never Globals so you might have the Globals on us However we all thought Options would be flying Gulfstreams Now after Kenn buys Flexjet and buys Gulfstreams in reality that should have been split down the list in seniority but no he didn't do that So I am sorry but to say those airplanes are yours in wrong, for us to say they are ours, well we have a little bit more to the history to say it, but we can't go claiming exclusivity on it

Have at them. But I don't see the outcome being any different since no matter how you slice it Kenn was going to make sure his boot lickers got the slots.

Slowtation, I think we potentially agree on the large cabin issue but for different passions. To me this is a seniority debate, to you a fences issue.

Tomato Tomato. It's all still wrong.

I never understood why the citation air deal vilified the union so much when it seemed to me they made the only ethical choice. But now I recognize Kenn is reallt good the PR game most of us are too dumb to avoid.

 

[993_Pilot]

Have at them. But I don't see the outcome being any different since no matter how you slice it Kenn was going to make sure his boot lickers got the slots.

Slowtation, I think we potentially agree on the large cabin issue but for different passions. To me this is a seniority debate, to you a fences issue.

Tomato Tomato. It's all still wrong.

I never understood why the citation air deal vilified the union so much when it seemed to me they made the only ethical choice. But now I recognize Kenn is reallt good the PR game most of us are too dumb to avoid.

There would be no debate about the seniority for any aircraft on our side of the fence, because we have a contract in place. That is precisely why Mr. Ricci is putting all new aircraft on the Flexjet side of the fence. Just another way to screw with the two pilot groups and pit us against one another.

 

[doh]

My take on the red label is since you can't get 100% to not bid it, everyone should bid it. But DO NOT "pick a team". RH said it would go in seniority order, so hold him to it. 100% bid and seniority order. That's why you see my name with no "team" on that list. You will note that I'm way TF down the list and unaffiliated, so I don't ever expect to see it. But everyone should have a bid in for every slot in this company. The most junior guy should have a standing bid for every position in order of preference.

 

[Imissmypilot]

There would be no debate about the seniority for any aircraft on our side of the fence, because we have a contract in place. That is precisely why Mr. Ricci is putting all new aircraft on the Flexjet side of the fence. Just another way to screw with the two pilot groups and pit us against one another.

Agreed. And looking at his propensity to still figure out a way to do.what he wants whenever he wants, everyone *should* recognize the need for unionization and support it at this point regardless of the little nagging uncomfortabilities. Which is exactly what I've tried to do.

But no one still cares to deal.with the number one philosophical issue regarding red label: people who brought this union here just to be ineffective. That's some Benedict Arnold ******************** right there.

Yep, I'm going to go there. In my personal opinion, POC presence on the red label is either stupid, selfish or downright traitorous. And those choices are not lost on the majority of our fence sitters, who associate their pulling a Wookie (claiming they're saving dues and will pay up when it's time to vote a JCBA) with the same sense of entitlement to benefits without ethics that our union leaders display.

I'm inclined to agree with DOH regarding encouraging everyone to sign up except for two not so tiny facts: 1.) his argument is being used by POC names on the list to twist selfishness into gallantry and 2.) It legitimizes their choice. To have your name on the list at the same time the program is intentionally being used to divide (and furlough) pilots is unconscionable.

If you pay very careful attention to the argument the company has been making in court, Red Label is behind the rationale for every spiteful thing they are doing to Options guys, especially furloughs. That's why the fact the only thing we're selling is Red Label shares is important but most of you just swooped right past that fact in the first post.

As all sales get put into the RL bucket, he gets to empty water from the Options bucket. An arbitrator looking at the numbers will agree. It's probably why the union hasn't taken it to court. It's obvious it's a political furloughs to us living it everyday but while we're still operating under fences, he gets to play with the buckets and probably win. So IMHO, our vice plc guy is personally responsible for guys being on the street. And the rest of leadership just sits back and does nothing. For the record I appreciate our other plc member recinding his name from the list but it begs the question of how it got there to begin with? Did leadership not explain to him exactly what it meant or did they punt the issue so they didn't offend their union poster child "hostage"?

So a fellow pilot here has asked me a million times why do I care? They've said it's just Options guys and we need to protect Flexjetters right now.

Well I care because if we stand down, if we don't get this right, the next time it will be Flexjetters at the ax.

This is kindergartens morals stuff here people. You shouldn't have the ability to fly a sophisticated airframe but cry ignorant on these simple, simple principles.

 

[shanes123]

Anyone taking a Red Label slot at this point is a Low Life POS. plain n simple. I agree that you wouldn't stop everyone from going over there. KR has always had his POS,IGM, and always will. But with solidarity they would have been the minority and outcasts. They pretty much had become that at options but all hid in the security of the office where they could all pat each other on the back and congratulate each other on how great they all are. And it looks like they are slowly making their way back into the office one by one. KR will have his old management in place before you realize it. I feel the Union needs to step up and remove anyone in RED label from a union position. KUDOS to the guys that held their ground.

 

[doh]

Don't get me wrong here, it is seniority. If everyone puts in a standing bid without a "team", everyone has bid in seniority order. I'm agreeing with imiss. I actually think he has found a solution.

 

[993_Pilot]

My take on the red label is since you can't get 100% to not bid it, everyone should bid it. But DO NOT "pick a team". RH said it would go in seniority order, so hold him to it. 100% bid and seniority order. That's why you see my name with no "team" on that list. You will note that I'm way TF down the list and unaffiliated, so I don't ever expect to see it. But everyone should have a bid in for every slot in this company. The most junior guy should have a standing bid for every position in order of preference.

Don't get me wrong here, it is seniority. If everyone puts in a standing bid without a "team", everyone has bid in seniority order. I'm agreeing with imiss. I actually think he has found a solution.

If you are part of the Flexjet PLC and you are bidding for Red Label when the official position is telling people not to, then you sir are part of the problem. If the union PLC wants to make the recommendation for everyone to bid it, then make it official, don't just use your own twisted logic to support your selfish desires. You can't have it both ways, and I would have to agree with Imissmypilot, that the hypocracy of saying one thing, while doing another will hurt the cause. What's it gonna be?

 

[shanes123]

This is ridiculous. Putting your bid in only gets you a interview! they still pick and choose who they want..THAT IS NOT SENIORITY! That's playing right into KR hands. If you are gonna do that just become a turncoat and be done with it

 

[notapilot]

This is ridiculous. Putting your bid in only gets you a interview! they still pick and choose who they want..THAT IS NOT SENIORITY! That's playing right into KR hands. If you are gonna do that just become a turncoat and be done with it

I think many aren't understanding the difference between Red Label Domestic and International. RL Domestic is comprised of CL350s and Legacy 450/500s. It does not require an interview. Have there been a few cases of awards out of seniority? YES. Does that mean no one bids Red Label Domestic and hands all the positions to the transfer pilots, NO. Unfortunately there are also many out of seniority pilots in Red Label Domestic because they filled positions and promised planes to groups before setting the current rules and pay for the program. Earmarking tail numbers to groups that are many months away is BS by the way.

Red Label International is comprised of Gulfstreams and Globals. This program you must interview if they decide to call you. Many of us feel we have already interviewed 1-2 decades ago, with excellent records over the time employed. The interview is a scam to only put Flight Options transfer FOKs and wanna be Flexjet FOKs in the fleet. We have many junior pilots, some who can't even hold a captain position in the small cabin fleets, in Red Label International as G captains. Seniority means nothing in this program and it's full of IGMs who would step over their own mothers to get ahead. When any one sees one of these pilots in the FBO, you now know the type of character you're dealing with.

Red Label Domestic sort of honors seniority and Red Label International does not. The funny thing is Red Label Domestic pays significantly more than those in the Gulfstreams and Globals. Both programs are BS and a marketing ploy. There is no need not to honor seniority without an interview for either program. Red Label Domestic started out identical to Red Label International until the Flexjet pilots had a coronary. The company then decided not to piss off the entire pilot group yet and added some loose seniority rules to it. Why these same pilots aren't having the same coronary about Red Label international is beyond me. Don't think for a second that without a union Red Label Domestic would also require an interview and seniority would not apply. Don't believe me? Read Section 7 of the company's proposed ICBA. It specifically separates and protects Red Label pilots from seniority rules, and bumping rights while hanging all non Red Label pilots out to dry in the event of fleet retirements and furlough.

Still think a union isn't needed, or is it you don't have the courage to be a man put your foot down and say enough is enough?

 

[Imissmypilot]

I am tired of the seniority bull******************** argument smokescreen that any part of this program has ever been or is currently run with seniority or transparency in mind. Whenever you have pilots flying as captains who would be FOs on other fleets or you have high seniority captains on the waiting list get continually passed over because of the team concept.

Something needs to change. My suggestion is take away the divisive power of the list by basically making it meaningless. However, it's not fraught with its own set of new issues it will create.

But that is a patch that NEVER should have had to be employed. I consider it absolutely unconscionable leadership is allowed to remain in these positions without consequence. Do I have to print out an A to B to C road map for you that directly implicates Red Label with the furloughs? This is utterly ridiculous to continue to ignore this issue.

Additionally, this benefits the Options guys. Come integration, most of those seats get rightfully reshuffled in your favor and until then BYPASS PAY! You'll get your pound of flesh when you force back one of the now too-fat-cats back to ghetto otherwise known as the Lear 45.

It's time to start playing smarter than Ricci.

 

[doh]

If you are part of the Flexjet PLC and you are bidding for Red Label when the official position is telling people not to, then you sir are part of the problem. If the union PLC wants to make the recommendation for everyone to bid it, then make it official, don't just use your own twisted logic to support your selfish desires. You can't have it both ways, and I would have to agree with Imissmypilot, that the hypocracy of saying one thing, while doing another will hurt the cause. What's it gonna be?

I think I did not express myself well. My opinion is everyone bidding would either nullify the red label scheme, or more likely, cause management to renege on their seniority claim. Clear now?

 

[NJAowner]

Red Label - Plane Crewing

So I recently had a lengthy conversation with my former FLOPs/FX sales rep as he is trying to persuade me to return. I ask him what happens with the crew on single plane crewing when a plane goes into unscheduled and scheduled maintenance. Regarding unscheduled maintenance he said (1) the planes won't need much unscheduled maintenance because since it is a single crew plane they have found that the pilots will take much better care of the plane, and (2) if the plane does required unscheduled maintenance that the crew who was supposed to be flying it for the down days will just be put on vacation. I asked if these days would count against vacation days and he said yes - then I said that would not make them happy. He said it would be more incentive to keep the planes flying and in great shape.Regarding scheduled maintenance, it would just cause some crews to be on "scheduled vacation" at the same time, no necessarily when the crew wants to take their vacation. I said who would want that -- he said they are confident it will work out.

 

[dime line]

So I recently had a lengthy conversation with my former FLOPs/FX sales rep as he is trying to persuade me to return. I ask him what happens with the crew on single plane crewing when a plane goes into unscheduled and scheduled maintenance. Regarding unscheduled maintenance he said (1) the planes won't need much unscheduled maintenance because since it is a single crew plane they have found that the pilots will take much better care of the plane, and (2) if the plane does required unscheduled maintenance that the crew who was supposed to be flying it for the down days will just be put on vacation. I asked if these days would count against vacation days and he said yes - then I said that would not make them happy. He said it would be more incentive to keep the planes flying and in great shape.Regarding scheduled maintenance, it would just cause some crews to be on "scheduled vacation" at the same time, no necessarily when the crew wants to take their vacation. I said who would want that -- he said they are confident it will work out.

So I guess these crews have the ability to keep crossfeed valves and fuel valves in tip-top-shape.........
Bird Strike........
crew: did we really hit a bird, the plane will be down for at least 2 days to borescope the motor.....
copilot: I cant afford that I don't have enough vacation left.


Thank God for the union we do have, is all I have to say.

 

[SDCFI]

So I recently had a lengthy conversation with my former FLOPs/FX sales rep as he is trying to persuade me to return. I ask him what happens with the crew on single plane crewing when a plane goes into unscheduled and scheduled maintenance. Regarding unscheduled maintenance he said (1) the planes won't need much unscheduled maintenance because since it is a single crew plane they have found that the pilots will take much better care of the plane, and (2) if the plane does required unscheduled maintenance that the crew who was supposed to be flying it for the down days will just be put on vacation. I asked if these days would count against vacation days and he said yes - then I said that would not make them happy. He said it would be more incentive to keep the planes flying and in great shape.Regarding scheduled maintenance, it would just cause some crews to be on "scheduled vacation" at the same time, no necessarily when the crew wants to take their vacation. I said who would want that -- he said they are confident it will work out.

You've been around this business a long time, do you really think a sales rep has accurate information when it comes to pilot vacations? They may have meant well, or been fed bad information from either management or other sales reps. I know a few G and Global guys and am quite positive they aren't charged PTO, there is no separate "vacation" time anymore, when the airplane is down for mx.

Now, there was a case awhile back where Constant Aviation damaged a G4 during routine mx (good call on that one DAC), and there was a question about whether the extra down time would impact the crew's aircraft availability portion of their bonus. To be honest I never heard what the resolution was, but I have yet to hear any gripes from those guys when it comes to pay/benefits.

Remember, they're the chosen few, the FOKs. The company is supposed to take care of them and hose the rest of us!

 

[Imissmypilot]

What the sales team does have a pretty good idea about, in general, is management's wishful thinking.

So if a salesman said it, it's a pretty good bet someone on high somewhere, told him what their vision of the perfect program looks like.

And that should scare the auschwitz pants right off of you.

On some level you know Kenn is just looking for a way to be able to have us sleep on the planes. Rules and safety are a pesky nuisance to people like him. If you don't think he'd love the threat of forced pto to keep those planes running, fit or not, you've been sleeping for 3 years.