You'll be moved...

[shanes123]

This is not new. Why you think we have a union. Pilot pushing and intimidation has always been the CULTure at flops. This is just a different form of it.

 

[NJAowner]

Yes - I realize all that a sales rep says is not fact. But I also realize planes go into unscheduled maintenance and don't fly. The businessman in me says that operationally it must be quite expensive to have dedicated crews who don't have anything else to do when a jet is not flying - unless you hit the pilot's time off.

 

[el raton]

Yes - I realize all that a sales rep says is not fact. But I also realize planes go into unscheduled maintenance and don't fly. The businessman in me says that operationally it must be quite expensive to have dedicated crews who don't have anything else to do when a jet is not flying - unless you hit the pilot's time off.

When a Domestic Red Label aircraft is not flying, the crew usually goes to an "open fleet" aircraft. Or the pilots float to another aircraft. We're running lean on the Flexjet side, meaning there's enough airplanes for the pilots.

One more thing, if the airplane is broke, and it can't be deferred, its grounded. The Red Label rules are favorable to the pilots both financially and in quality of life. I would expect this will be our new future.

 

[shanes123]

Translation. There is no dedicated crews it's marketing Bull********************. Dedicated means dedicated. You don't float around to other planes. Again not new KR tried this years ago and it failed miserably.

Second. Fly broke and get a Bonus. That's why these crews where hand picked no regard for safety or the rules. Again this was tried with the mechanics years ago. Sign off planes get them green and get a Bonus. It was a total disaster

Sceniorio: this has happened numerous times before. G captain lives in NY his airplane is in CA. Another G captain lives in CA his plane is in NY. Two airline tickets and a day of down time on two planes to move crews to their dedicated plane. Not smart on any level. This has happened numerous times in the past dedicated crewing was a total disaster.

 

[NJAowner]

If I recall correctly, last time (circa 2000) the dedicated crewing was because there were many inconsistencies in the flight deck along the same jets in the same fleet since they were all picked up used.

I agree with Shanes that if a pilot moves to an open fleet than he does not fly just 1 tail.

In the long run I do not think that owners will pay extra for "dedicated crewing". It is very expensive.

 

[SDCFI]

What the sales team does have a pretty good idea about, in general, is management's wishful thinking.

So if a salesman said it, it's a pretty good bet someone on high somewhere, told him what their vision of the perfect program looks like.

And that should scare the auschwitz pants right off of you.

On some level you know Kenn is just looking for a way to be able to have us sleep on the planes. Rules and safety are a pesky nuisance to people like him. If you don't think he'd love the threat of forced pto to keep those planes running, fit or not, you've been sleeping for 3 years.

No argument here, just pointing out as of right now that info is not correct. Also keep in mind all our promotional material lists the Lear 75 as red label, and we all know that's def not the case, at least as far as crewing.

And NJAowner: you didn't mention if it was domestic or international red label they were trying to sell you. International is true dedicated crew, all Captains assigned to a single tail. Domestic is 3 Captains that only man the left seat with fleet FOs in the right, so it's not even true dedicated crewing. There are always a few people who will pay more for what they perceive, or are led to believe anyway, is a premium service. Will it be enough to sustain red label in the long run? Don't think you'll find a lot of optimism on that one.

 

[Imissmypilot]

When a Domestic Red Label aircraft is not flying, the crew usually goes to an "open fleet" aircraft. Or the pilots float to another aircraft. We're running lean on the Flexjet side, meaning there's enough airplanes for the pilots.

And it is this very concept that is angering some of the first converts to the program who were promised a very different life.

Fact is Red label is a shim sham smokescreen meant to sell more standard shares at higher prices, divide pilots and provide a safe haven for the most loyal of FoKs until he could get them back into sweet positions.

Based on NJAOwners posts, it sounds like the customers are smart enough to figure it out they're being duped. What's your excuse?

 

[notapilot]

I just talked to a non Red Label captain who said he just finished flying a Red Label aircraft with a non Red Label first officer. Not only aren't the Red Label crews always flying their own tail, in certain cases non Red Label pilots are flying those planes under the Red Label banner. Do owners get a refund when this happens? Do they even know if this happens? At a minimum the program is designed so that there will be one non dedicated Red Label pilot flying. How is this so special? I can see the possibility of a Red Label program where the aircraft may be highly upgraded, but a pilot in Red Label is no different than a pilot in non Red Label. The crewing aspect of Red Label is a game to cause chaos amongst pilots.

 

[doh]

Imiss, I think you'll find the long term goal is to tell the red label guys: "we don't have an available right seater, you guys have to crew it". And that's when the real shim sham will become clear. It's not about anything but reducing costs.

 

[NJAowner]

Domestic. No mention of the "fleet FOs" (how is that different from non-Red Label. I was told the Lear 75 program is dead. But Red Label aircraft will have cool, unique interiors. A lot of the "Red Label" seems to appeal to the first time fractional buyer. After a few years and the novelty of owning a plane wears off, the share is just about transportation. Then it becomes about having clean, well maintained, reliable, on-time air transportation with GOOD RECOVERY times. A Red Label interior does not mean much when I need to wait 8 hours for a plane (one of the reasons I returned to NJ).

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

If I recall correctly, last time (circa 2000) the dedicated crewing was because there were many inconsistencies in the flight deck along the same jets in the same fleet since they were all picked up used.

I agree with Shanes that if a pilot moves to an open fleet than he does not fly just 1 tail.

In the long run I do not think that owners will pay extra for "dedicated crewing". It is very expensive.

True. There were many different panels with different avionics BUT when we went 91K/135, pilots had to be trained on all of the available cockpit layouts. The system collapsed when a new Captain went to a different aircraft and found a discrepancy. The company pushed, and the pilots pushed back in the form of a Union. Was never a big Union guy, but this place, without a Union, changed my mind.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

I for one really liked being assigned to only one aircraft!

 

[shanes123]

What difference does it make what aircraft you are assigned to when they are all identical cockpit door forward? NJA owner is spot on and gives the best perspective of anyone cause he is actually a customer that's writing the check. He just told you he returned to NJ cause we are trying to charge to much for nothing different then anyone else has. KR is playing on the new stupid customer just like he plays on the stupid pilot. Making you clowns think your special cause your a chosen Red Label. Reality check your not special. You were just willing to sell out a fellow pilot.

 

[993_Pilot]

I think I did not express myself well. My opinion is everyone bidding would either nullify the red label scheme, or more likely, cause management to renege on their seniority claim. Clear now?

Oh, I get what you are suggesting, and I don't disagree with it, however if you or any other members of the Flexjet PLC are bidding for a red label position, while the union is asking people not to, then it hurts the cause. What you suggested isn't a bad idea for the domestic RL program, but it should be the official Union position before anyone in leadership bids, IMO.

 

[Brit]

You options pilots are the biggest bunch of miserable c@&ksuckers I've ever worked with. You hate it so much, fricking quit!!!!! I just don't understand in this job market why you would stick around if you hate it so much. You're not ever going to change KR's way of doing business. There's only so many things you control in life and that ain't one of them. You guys need to get drunk, laid and a new job.

 

[NJAowner]

To be fair and honest, I left before the Red Label became a selling point (though it was discussed). After the FX-FLOPS merger was announced. I did have some previous card experience with FX and liked the service - but as far as a share was concerned wasn't keen on having to buy a new share every 5-7 years (as opposed to rolling over). Personally - I would gladly fly on a 9 year old jet if I did not have to pony up $$ for a new share (and still ride the 6-7 years old jets). That was a big down point of FX and Red Label brings it back.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

What difference does it make what aircraft you are assigned to when they are all identical cockpit door forward?

I'll tell you one thing that I do not like about the dedicated crewing at the old Flight Options and that was the willingness of certain(FOK) pilots to carry write-ups. One plane had STBY instruments that would not all power up on the STBY battery and that same plane would not start the left engine first(not good in the dual flameout scenario). They tried to label me a "troublemaker". I really do not want this company to return to those days.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

You options pilots are the biggest bunch of miserable c@&ksuckers I've ever worked with. You hate it so much, fricking quit!!!!! I just don't understand in this job market why you would stick around if you hate it so much. You're not ever going to change KR's way of doing business. There's only so many things you control in life and that ain't one of them. You guys need to get drunk, laid and a new job.

Sorry Brit, I'm not going away. This company has lots of potential but sometimes our leaders just need a little guidance. As for you, if you can't get along with the rest of us, how about you go away?

 

[NJAowner]

Dumb question -- if it is dedicated crewing, what if you are not nuts about the co-workers you will be spending a good bit of the next 5 years with. Almost like being, married to them?? Also, based upon the NTSB report I read on the BED G-IV incident, I would weigh the "safety gain" of a dedicated crew against the "safety risk" of a complacent team working together for too long. Pros and cons to both.

At the end of the day it came down to a few factors to move back - (1) Recovery times and peak day flights -- big problems for FLOPs and got worse after getting FX (and according to my friends on FX still an issue) - we were moved 3 hours on practically every peak day and waited many, many hours for recovery flights when needed, (2) care of the asset - the brand new Phenoms were looking like crap after less than 1 year -- FLOPS just doesn't keep them up as nicely as NJ and, I know it was only appearances, but made me wonder about the stuff I could not see, and (3) how they treat the pilots (not because I am such a nice guy - which I am - but I believe better hotels mean better sleep - better sleep means hopefully a safer flight). In some locales I knew where NJ put up the pilots for the night and the FLOPs pilots were nt put up in the same (or even similar hotels).

 

[dime line]

I'll tell you one thing that I do not like about the dedicated crewing at the old Flight Options and that was the willingness of certain(FOK) pilots to carry write-ups. One plane had STBY instruments that would not all power up on the STBY battery and that same plane would not start the left engine first(not good in the dual flameout scenario). They tried to label me a "troublemaker". I really do not want this company to return to those days.

Remember the dumbazz that use to manually put the gear down in the Challenger for quite a long time, he was dedicated crew. Dedicated Crewing isn't safer here at FLOPS its a scam to pit pilots against pilots.
Kinda like the company questioned why FLOPS has more Fatigue calls than FLEX, ......well turns out FLEX is paid double or something over 12 hrs, so your paid well to fly tired and move the plane anyway.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Remember the dumbazz that use to manually put the gear down in the Challenger for quite a long time, he was dedicated crew. Dedicated Crewing isn't safer here at FLOPS its a scam to pit pilots against pilots.
Kinda like the company questioned why FLOPS has more Fatigue calls than FLEX, ......well turns out FLEX is paid double or something over 12 hrs, so your paid well to fly tired and move the plane anyway.

I think the Feds finally figured out what's happening there.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Dumb question -- if it is dedicated crewing, what if you are not nuts about the co-workers you will be spending a good bit of the next 5 years with. Almost like being, married to them?? Also, based upon the NTSB report I read on the BED G-IV incident, I would weigh the "safety gain" of a dedicated crew against the "safety risk" of a complacent team working together for too long. Pros and cons to both.

At the end of the day it came down to a few factors to move back - (1) Recovery times and peak day flights -- big problems for FLOPs and got worse after getting FX (and according to my friends on FX still an issue) - we were moved 3 hours on practically every peak day and waited many, many hours for recovery flights when needed, (2) care of the asset - the brand new Phenoms were looking like crap after less than 1 year -- FLOPS just doesn't keep them up as nicely as NJ and, I know it was only appearances, but made me wonder about the stuff I could not see, and (3) how they treat the pilots (not because I am such a nice guy - which I am - but I believe better hotels mean better sleep - better sleep means hopefully a safer flight). In some locales I knew where NJ put up the pilots for the night and the FLOPs pilots were nt put up in the same (or even similar hotels).

The complacency thing got broken long ago at Options. As for the new culture Kenn is trying to implement, it's up to the Flex pilots to not let that mindset take hold.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Dumb question -- if it is dedicated crewing, what if you are not nuts about the co-workers you will be spending a good bit of the next 5 years with. Almost like being, married to them?? Also, based upon the NTSB report I read on the BED G-IV incident, I would weigh the "safety gain" of a dedicated crew against the "safety risk" of a complacent team working together for too long. Pros and cons to both.

The domestic red label is technically dedicated captain. The first officers are just regular old fashioned line pilots who get assigned to the airplane the same way they always have. But with that said, often times two of the dedicated captains will fly with each other for a day or two at the beginning or the end of a rotation. Those three dedicated pilots all agree to work with each other, so theoretically you would only sign up for an airplane with two other people you know you get along with.

The international red label is 100% dedicated crew. What is it, 5 per airplane? all captains, who set their own schedule amongst their group to make sure there are always two pilots scheduled to be in the seats. The manager of the airplane can pick and choose pilots to join his/her group, so once again you theoretically would pick people you get along with.

 

[jonjuan]

.........................

 

[993_Pilot]

You options pilots are the biggest bunch of miserable c@&ksuckers I've ever worked with. You hate it so much, fricking quit!!!!! I just don't understand in this job market why you would stick around if you hate it so much. You're not ever going to change KR's way of doing business. There's only so many things you control in life and that ain't one of them. You guys need to get drunk, laid and a new job.

Up tight much? ... I would say that you're the one that needs to rub one off. The rest of us generally enjoy our job, like where we live and/or prefer a company provided commute, and would rather fight to improve the rest of the working conditions. Keep in mind that if nobody fought for the working conditions at other places, they wouldn't be any better either.

Dumb question -- if it is dedicated crewing, what if you are not nuts about the co-workers you will be spending a good bit of the next 5 years with. Almost like being, married to them?? Also, based upon the NTSB report I read on the BED G-IV incident, I would weigh the "safety gain" of a dedicated crew against the "safety risk" of a complacent team working together for too long. Pros and cons to both.

At the end of the day it came down to a few factors to move back - (1) Recovery times and peak day flights -- big problems for FLOPs and got worse after getting FX (and according to my friends on FX still an issue) - we were moved 3 hours on practically every peak day and waited many, many hours for recovery flights when needed, (2) care of the asset - the brand new Phenoms were looking like crap after less than 1 year -- FLOPS just doesn't keep them up as nicely as NJ and, I know it was only appearances, but made me wonder about the stuff I could not see, and (3) how they treat the pilots (not because I am such a nice guy - which I am - but I believe better hotels mean better sleep - better sleep means hopefully a safer flight). In some locales I knew where NJ put up the pilots for the night and the FLOPs pilots were nt put up in the same (or even similar hotels).

Well said. I wish all the consumers of our service would spend the time to educate themselves as well as you. I can only hope that you give some of the same feedback to our sales people, and maybe even more importantly, to Kenn Ricci himself.

 

[shanes123]

Yes NJA owner you should send a open letter to KR on why you left. 100% what we been saying all along. probably won't do any good. He doesn't believe happy, respected, well treated employees give you a better return on his investment and since he has become very wealthy doing it his way. its a tough argument to sell
Another reason why Recovery time at NJ is probably better.
And everything isn't all lovey dovey over at the hand picked dedicated crews they are having lots of issues as hard they try to keep it quiet a lot of it leaks out.