You'll be moved...

[slowtation capt]

Yeah, I'm not a leader but at least I take an active role. Again it sounds like more complaining from you

 

[Imissmypilot]

Yeah, I'm not a leader but at least I take an active role. Again it sounds like more complaining from you

I disagree with your presumption. I'm paying my dues. I'm speaking up and encouraging coworkers to do the same. I'm keeping in touch with my union representatives and reading everything put out to make sure I am keeping abreast of the facts. Outside of that for a Flexjet guy there's not really more opportunities at this juncture.

However the fact remains, leadership remains a do as I say and not as I do club. It's more than a hard pill for some of us to swallow and remains the number one reason for lack of support at Flexjet, especially among red label or red label list pilots as ironic as that fact is.

Deal with it slowtation. As much as you might hate my ilk, I'm pretty much the poster child for what you've got for a union supporter at Flexjet right now. Sucks for us all.

 

[shanes123]

Imisspilot. Serious question... Has Flex always been a bunch of unprofessional A kissing backstabbers ? (I am not including you in that statement at all. Your posts speak for themselves on your stance ) and if yes how could of you managed to stay sitting in the same cockpit as those Clowns ?

 

[Imissmypilot]

You know what Shane I'm not going to call any regular joe pilot unprofessional or a backstabber simply for interpreting the writing on the wall and acting accordingly. Flexjet has become a dog eat dog kind of place after the transfers arrived, especially the Global and Gulfstream ones who stole what didn't rightfully belong to them, a trend was set in motion. Additionally, since ass kissing has always been a job requirement in our "culture" and it appears to be an even greater concern in our new environment, I'll refrain from judgement there too. It's well known Flexjet employed a hiring algorithm for years and part of what you are seeing regarding the lack of vocal union suppprt is that matrix being played out but trust me it is there and growing.

So I'm going to cut those regular joe pilots a break. They are wrong. They are self serving. They are suck ups. But I will still cut them a break. Additionally, I know for a fact there are many quietly union supportive people who are in Red Label because they saw union leaders on the list and felt like that was a signal it was okay and not really as bad as the rhetoric said it was. Which brings me to the real issue.

The real issue for me is what appears to be union leadership (I'm talking every pilot responsible for bringing the union here whether they are currently active or not) not being held to the same standard of sacrificial behavior they are asking of the rest of us. That is shameful.

I am grateful for the union being here as we have seen a complete degradation of our standards in the few years Ricci has had us. I can't imagine what he would have done unfettered. However, that gratefulness can really only be applied to a handful of people at this point. We all know who they are and they are not getting the credit they deserve. But I'll tell you one identifying factor is you will not see their name on the Red Label list.

By having your name on the red label list you are showing support for a program that was intended to decimate the very thing we should all hold in reverence, which is seniority. The fact is, regardless of whatever shenagins of transparency management is currently playing it is still not seniority based. The situation with DS made that clear. And don't try to tell me the Legacy is a different program / new fleet rules because the fact is we have Captains on that plane who would be FOs on another fleet or have no where near the seniority necessary to hold the position. For a minute I was lulled into complacency with several arguments defending it but they've all played out to an illogical end.

The argument I particularly love from one poc turncoat is that these red label leaders are "taking one for the team" by being in Red Label. They claimed by being in the program they have the opportunity to reach our more resistant pilots. They also mentioned they are helping to raise the overall base pay average which will only help in what is guaranteed to be a disappointing arbitration (an argument I find baseless if we supported our negotiating process with any gusto). That is laughable. What they and other red label pilots are doing is laying the groundwork for more furloughs (if we are to believe Ricci which I don't but that's beside the point) and creating more work for those left behind. How can a union leader stand behind a program that a.) Decimates seniority b.) Jeopardizes jobs c.) Increases workload d.) Creates more layers that divide pilots and e.) mask transparency just to name a few.

In my opinion only 2 things can happen now to correct this situation. Red Label leadership should resign until they can run for office or they should just encourage EVERYONE to get on the list and try to put a kink in Ricci's plan. Unfortunately, everyone being on the list won't solve the problems Red Label causes (or punish those who already jumped the line) but that would right a a few of the wrongs and set the union up for a good argument regarding integration methodology that would force either bypass pay, lab conditions violations and/or a shuffling nightmare for management when the time comes.

As distasteful as it is, by asking everyone to get on the list it takes away the power of the list. The fact is if the program had been initially boycotted we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. So the next best move might be to destroy the list by essentially making it the seniority list.

There is more support than you know at Flexjet. It's not vocal but it's there and growing. However is is happening in spite of what these particular union leaders have done. Unilaterally you will hear every pilot here whether they support the union or not feels having leadership on red label is a black eye to the union and has hurt the effort (and them personally) tremendously.

 

[slowtation capt]

You know what Shane I'm not going to call any regular joe pilot unprofessional or a backstabber simply for interpreting the writing on the wall and acting accordingly. Flexjet has become a dog eat dog kind of place after the transfers arrived, especially the Global and Gulfstream ones who stole what didn't rightfully belong to them, a trend was set in motion. Additionally, since ass kissing has always been a job requirement in our "culture" and it appears to be an even greater concern in our new environment, I'll refrain from judgement there too. It's well known Flexjet employed a hiring algorithm for years and part of what you are seeing regarding the lack of vocal union suppprt is that matrix being played out but trust me it is there and growing.

So I'm going to cut those regular joe pilots a break. They are wrong. They are self serving. They are suck ups. But I will still cut them a break. Additionally, I know for a fact there are many quietly union supportive people who are in Red Label because they saw union leaders on the list and felt like that was a signal it was okay and not really as bad as the rhetoric said it was. Which brings me to the real issue.

The real issue for me is what appears to be union leadership (I'm talking every pilot responsible for bringing the union here whether they are currently active or not) not being held to the same standard of sacrificial behavior they are asking of the rest of us. That is shameful.

I am grateful for the union being here as we have seen a complete degradation of our standards in the few years Ricci has had us. I can't imagine what he would have done unfettered. However, that gratefulness can really only be applied to a handful of people at this point. We all know who they are and they are not getting the credit they deserve. But I'll tell you one identifying factor is you will not see their name on the Red Label list.

By having your name on the red label list you are showing support for a program that was intended to decimate the very thing we should all hold in reverence, which is seniority. The fact is, regardless of whatever shenagins of transparency management is currently playing it is still not seniority based. The situation with DS made that clear. And don't try to tell me the Legacy is a different program / new fleet rules because the fact is we have Captains on that plane who would be FOs on another fleet or have no where near the seniority necessary to hold the position. For a minute I was lulled into complacency with several arguments defending it but they've all played out to an illogical end.

The argument I particularly love from one poc turncoat is that these red label leaders are "taking one for the team" by being in Red Label. They claimed by being in the program they have the opportunity to reach our more resistant pilots. They also mentioned they are helping to raise the overall base pay average which will only help in what is guaranteed to be a disappointing arbitration (an argument I find baseless if we supported our negotiating process with any gusto). That is laughable. What they and other red label pilots are doing is laying the groundwork for more furloughs (if we are to believe Ricci which I don't but that's beside the point) and creating more work for those left behind. How can a union leader stand behind a program that a.) Decimates seniority b.) Jeopardizes jobs c.) Increases workload d.) Creates more layers that divide pilots and e.) mask transparency just to name a few.

In my opinion only 2 things can happen now to correct this situation. Red Label leadership should resign until they can run for office or they should just encourage EVERYONE to get on the list and try to put a kink in Ricci's plan. Unfortunately, everyone being on the list won't solve the problems Red Label causes (or punish those who already jumped the line) but that would right a a few of the wrongs and set the union up for a good argument regarding integration methodology that would force either bypass pay, lab conditions violations and/or a shuffling nightmare for management when the time comes.

As distasteful as it is, by asking everyone to get on the list it takes away the power of the list. The fact is if the program had been initially boycotted we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. So the next best move might be to destroy the list by essentially making it the seniority list.

There is more support than you know at Flexjet. It's not vocal but it's there and growing. However is is happening in spite of what these particular union leaders have done. Unilaterally you will hear every pilot here whether they support the union or not feels having leadership on red label is a black eye to the union and has hurt the effort (and them personally) tremendously.

Well damn I was wrong about you
"especially the Global and Gulfstream ones who stole what didn't rightfully belong to them" I gotta argue that statement Those airplanes didn't belong to you as much as they belonged to us, they used those airplanes to divide. For how many years did Flexjet talk of buying Gulfstreams? or Globals? I know Kenn talked for years about Gulfstreams? Never Globals so you might have the Globals on us However we all thought Options would be flying Gulfstreams Now after Kenn buys Flexjet and buys Gulfstreams in reality that should have been split down the list in seniority but no he didn't do that So I am sorry but to say those airplanes are yours in wrong, for us to say they are ours, well we have a little bit more to the history to say it, but we can't go claiming exclusivity on it

 

[Imissmypilot]

Well damn I was wrong about you
"especially the Global and Gulfstream ones who stole what didn't rightfully belong to them" I gotta argue that statement Those airplanes didn't belong to you as much as they belonged to us, they used those airplanes to divide. For how many years did Flexjet talk of buying Gulfstreams? or Globals? I know Kenn talked for years about Gulfstreams? Never Globals so you might have the Globals on us However we all thought Options would be flying Gulfstreams Now after Kenn buys Flexjet and buys Gulfstreams in reality that should have been split down the list in seniority but no he didn't do that So I am sorry but to say those airplanes are yours in wrong, for us to say they are ours, well we have a little bit more to the history to say it, but we can't go claiming exclusivity on it

Have at them. But I don't see the outcome being any different since no matter how you slice it Kenn was going to make sure his boot lickers got the slots.

Slowtation, I think we potentially agree on the large cabin issue but for different passions. To me this is a seniority debate, to you a fences issue.

Tomato Tomato. It's all still wrong.

I never understood why the citation air deal vilified the union so much when it seemed to me they made the only ethical choice. But now I recognize Kenn is reallt good the PR game most of us are too dumb to avoid.

 

[993_Pilot]

Have at them. But I don't see the outcome being any different since no matter how you slice it Kenn was going to make sure his boot lickers got the slots.

Slowtation, I think we potentially agree on the large cabin issue but for different passions. To me this is a seniority debate, to you a fences issue.

Tomato Tomato. It's all still wrong.

I never understood why the citation air deal vilified the union so much when it seemed to me they made the only ethical choice. But now I recognize Kenn is reallt good the PR game most of us are too dumb to avoid.

There would be no debate about the seniority for any aircraft on our side of the fence, because we have a contract in place. That is precisely why Mr. Ricci is putting all new aircraft on the Flexjet side of the fence. Just another way to screw with the two pilot groups and pit us against one another.

 

[doh]

My take on the red label is since you can't get 100% to not bid it, everyone should bid it. But DO NOT "pick a team". RH said it would go in seniority order, so hold him to it. 100% bid and seniority order. That's why you see my name with no "team" on that list. You will note that I'm way TF down the list and unaffiliated, so I don't ever expect to see it. But everyone should have a bid in for every slot in this company. The most junior guy should have a standing bid for every position in order of preference.

 

[Imissmypilot]

There would be no debate about the seniority for any aircraft on our side of the fence, because we have a contract in place. That is precisely why Mr. Ricci is putting all new aircraft on the Flexjet side of the fence. Just another way to screw with the two pilot groups and pit us against one another.

Agreed. And looking at his propensity to still figure out a way to do.what he wants whenever he wants, everyone *should* recognize the need for unionization and support it at this point regardless of the little nagging uncomfortabilities. Which is exactly what I've tried to do.

But no one still cares to deal.with the number one philosophical issue regarding red label: people who brought this union here just to be ineffective. That's some Benedict Arnold ******************** right there.

Yep, I'm going to go there. In my personal opinion, POC presence on the red label is either stupid, selfish or downright traitorous. And those choices are not lost on the majority of our fence sitters, who associate their pulling a Wookie (claiming they're saving dues and will pay up when it's time to vote a JCBA) with the same sense of entitlement to benefits without ethics that our union leaders display.

I'm inclined to agree with DOH regarding encouraging everyone to sign up except for two not so tiny facts: 1.) his argument is being used by POC names on the list to twist selfishness into gallantry and 2.) It legitimizes their choice. To have your name on the list at the same time the program is intentionally being used to divide (and furlough) pilots is unconscionable.

If you pay very careful attention to the argument the company has been making in court, Red Label is behind the rationale for every spiteful thing they are doing to Options guys, especially furloughs. That's why the fact the only thing we're selling is Red Label shares is important but most of you just swooped right past that fact in the first post.

As all sales get put into the RL bucket, he gets to empty water from the Options bucket. An arbitrator looking at the numbers will agree. It's probably why the union hasn't taken it to court. It's obvious it's a political furloughs to us living it everyday but while we're still operating under fences, he gets to play with the buckets and probably win. So IMHO, our vice plc guy is personally responsible for guys being on the street. And the rest of leadership just sits back and does nothing. For the record I appreciate our other plc member recinding his name from the list but it begs the question of how it got there to begin with? Did leadership not explain to him exactly what it meant or did they punt the issue so they didn't offend their union poster child "hostage"?

So a fellow pilot here has asked me a million times why do I care? They've said it's just Options guys and we need to protect Flexjetters right now.

Well I care because if we stand down, if we don't get this right, the next time it will be Flexjetters at the ax.

This is kindergartens morals stuff here people. You shouldn't have the ability to fly a sophisticated airframe but cry ignorant on these simple, simple principles.

 

[shanes123]

Anyone taking a Red Label slot at this point is a Low Life POS. plain n simple. I agree that you wouldn't stop everyone from going over there. KR has always had his POS,IGM, and always will. But with solidarity they would have been the minority and outcasts. They pretty much had become that at options but all hid in the security of the office where they could all pat each other on the back and congratulate each other on how great they all are. And it looks like they are slowly making their way back into the office one by one. KR will have his old management in place before you realize it. I feel the Union needs to step up and remove anyone in RED label from a union position. KUDOS to the guys that held their ground.