A challenge to the Flexjet Pilots on the fence or against a union

[BlueNose]

993:
So again, VOTE NO and get rid of this despicable culture-destroying IBT, IMPROVE your and your families lives next year with market wages, and enjoy the day.
WL

In 2002, Options 'bought' Travel Air from RTN (not really, but that's how it was sold; a year and a half later, when KR & Co couldn't pay the note, RTN was forced to take back the combined company they didn't want). I was on the FO side, but pre-merger the TA pilots had a better schedule, better avg pay, better vacation and sick days, RTN stock plan, a pension; we had better ... actually I can't think of anything (unless you count the SFO program, which I don't). But we were a young and eager group, willing to work hard to help the company succeed.

The TA guys were in the middle of a union drive, so Kenn made a full court press to them (pre-sale, since it would have been illegal for RTN to make those promises, or for him to do it once the sale completed). Trust me, he said, and once we combine the pilots will have the best from both companies. Sounded good to us on the FO side, too. So when the vote came, the TA pilots voted against unionizing, the merger went ahead, and guess what we got? Nothing. We on the FO side didn't get any better pay or benefits, the TA guys lost what they had and were reduced to our pay and benefits. Much bitterness, especially on their side, ensued.

Kenn was eventually forced out by corporate RTN, and things got even worse under a new pilot-hating CEO, ensuring a successful union vote a couple of years later. But make no mistake, all the initial decisions to make false promises to the pilot group during the merger, and then failure to follow through, bringing everyone down to the level of the lowest-paid group - that was all KR and his team. Well, it's deja vu all over again. Kenn's back in charge. SFO is back, under a different name. Here we are with a newly-acquired company to integrate, and a new pilot group with better pay and benefits, being promised great things if they'll just vote down the union. Except this time you have a large group on the other side who've already lived this once. We've read the book, we know the ending. If you convince yourselves this time will be different, then you're letting hope triumph over experience.

 

[Praetorian]

In 2002, Options 'bought' Travel Air from RTN (not really, but that's how it was sold; a year and a half later, when KR & Co couldn't pay the note, RTN was forced to take back the combined company they didn't want). I was on the FO side, but pre-merger the TA pilots had a better schedule, better avg pay, better vacation and sick days, RTN stock plan, a pension; we had better ... actually I can't think of anything (unless you count the SFO program, which I don't). But we were a young and eager group, willing to work hard to help the company succeed.

The TA guys were in the middle of a union drive, so Kenn made a full court press to them (pre-sale, since it would have been illegal for RTN to make those promises, or for him to do it once the sale completed). Trust me, he said, and once we combine the pilots will have the best from both companies. Sounded good to us on the FO side, too. So when the vote came, the TA pilots voted against unionizing, the merger went ahead, and guess what we got? Nothing. We on the FO side didn't get any better pay or benefits, the TA guys lost what they had and were reduced to our pay and benefits. Much bitterness, especially on their side, ensued.

Kenn was eventually forced out by corporate RTN, and things got even worse under a new pilot-hating CEO, ensuring a successful union vote a couple of years later. But make no mistake, all the initial decisions to make false promises to the pilot group during the merger, and then failure to follow through, bringing everyone down to the level of the lowest-paid group - that was all KR and his team. Well, it's deja vu all over again. Kenn's back in charge. SFO is back, under a different name. Here we are with a newly-acquired company to integrate, and a new pilot group with better pay and benefits, being promised great things if they'll just vote down the union. Except this time you have a large group on the other side who've already lived this once. We've read the book, we know the ending. If you convince yourselves this time will be different, then you're letting hope triumph over experience.

There it is in a nutshell guys ^^^. Exactly how I remember it.

 

[Honorstudent]

Agreed Blue Nose is spot on, that is exactly the way I remember it! WL19 should learn to listen to those of us that have already been where he wants to go, and it's not Shan-gra-la for the pilots.

 

[slowtation capt]

Arkitec, I?ll kindly spell your name correctly when your side decides it?s childish to disrespect my company, it?s management, and me, with their various name-calling

993- you and your fellow lemmings

Cap?n Crunch

Buckaroo

The IBT, demonization of management
WL

Just my observation, sure seems like warlord (maybe Call of Duty?19, or Gears of War?19, maybe this is it http://warlordgames.com/ )

Is doing most of the demonization here.

 

[warlord19]

It’s getting late and been up a while but here’s a few comments for the various posts:

Many comments were made about the 2002 broken promises….that was 13 years ago….are you telling me that someone, anyone, would continue working for a company that corrupt for 13 years(today)….I dunno, maybe some of you would. I do know I only hear one side of the story from proven liars with a big agenda to fill, so your “stories” don’t hold much water for me.

“So you actually support having a union?” I’ve said on this board several times I’m not anti-union, just ANTI-IBT, and that there are companies that need unions, especially in past times. That point seems to go over your heads. Nowadays unions are rejected by all kinds of workers because workers have figured out how corrupt and inefficient most unions are. Japanese and European unions work with management and produce superior products. Would you rather drive a Chevy Impala or BMW…their about the same price. All I’m saying is the IBT is a poisonous, management-hating entity that will do and say anything to get a foot in the door. I see and hear this every day. They have torn my company apart (please save your platitudes for someone else) and encourage this “give it to the man” attitude that will cause the company to falter and eventually fail if they are voted in. It’s not surprising the NJ folks want them in our company…it would give their faltering operation a huge boost to tell potential clients the competition voted in the IBT.

And finally, the stupidest thing I’ve seen posted her yet…”this isn’t personal”. You’re right… it’s way beyond personal. Calling management stupid, ignorant, Hitler etc is way beyond personal.

If FO/FLEX pilots would like to gain some semblance of a culture and start making market wages and reap the benefits from working with management you need to VOTE NO. Management is not the enemy. This culture destroying misguided gang of hooligans is your true enemy. You have an opportunity to throw off their shakles and enjoy the fruits of your labor soon. Vote them in and your insured of years of below par everything and will find yourself in a race to the bottom. It’s your choice. VOTE NO!
WL

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

So Warlord, when are you going to answer exagony˙s simple questions?

 

[Honorstudent]

So WL if the Union Vote passes on the 15th, will you resign?

 

[993_Pilot]

It?s getting late and been up a while but here?s a few comments for the various posts:

Many comments were made about the 2002 broken promises?.that was 13 years ago?.are you telling me that someone, anyone, would continue working for a company that corrupt for 13 years(today)?.I dunno, maybe some of you would. I do know I only hear one side of the story from proven liars with a big agenda to fill, so your ?stories? don?t hold much water for me.

?So you actually support having a union?? I?ve said on this board several times I?m not anti-union, just ANTI-IBT, and that there are companies that need unions, especially in past times. That point seems to go over your heads. Nowadays unions are rejected by all kinds of workers because workers have figured out how corrupt and inefficient most unions are. Japanese and European unions work with management and produce superior products. Would you rather drive a Chevy Impala or BMW?their about the same price. All I?m saying is the IBT is a poisonous, management-hating entity that will do and say anything to get a foot in the door. I see and hear this every day. They have torn my company apart (please save your platitudes for someone else) and encourage this ?give it to the man? attitude that will cause the company to falter and eventually fail if they are voted in. It?s not surprising the NJ folks want them in our company?it would give their faltering operation a huge boost to tell potential clients the competition voted in the IBT.

And finally, the stupidest thing I?ve seen posted her yet??this isn?t personal?. You?re right? it?s way beyond personal. Calling management stupid, ignorant, Hitler etc is way beyond personal.

If FO/FLEX pilots would like to gain some semblance of a culture and start making market wages and reap the benefits from working with management you need to VOTE NO. Management is not the enemy. This culture destroying misguided gang of hooligans is your true enemy. You have an opportunity to throw off their shakles and enjoy the fruits of your labor soon. Vote them in and your insured of years of below par everything and will find yourself in a race to the bottom. It?s your choice. VOTE NO!
WL

Bluenose addressed this pretty well, but we have lived it once already, and we already know how KR operates without a check & balance, whereas you have no earthly idea or firsthand experience. And yet, against all reason, you would rather listen to and believe the visions of an egomaniac whose book you can't even be bothered to read. I would submit that the only one misguided here is you WL. You have to know that for the vast majority, the vote is already done, and while you go on ad-nauseam about the typical management talking points, you still won't answer the hard questions that have been asked... or maybe you just forgot, so here they are again:

How do you reconcile KR's lies?
- I was military trained
- I flew for Northwest Orient
- I was Bill Clinton's personal pilot
- I intend to keep the companies separate
- I didn't know about the STIP
- I will return the 401k match when we recall all the furloughs
- I will always have the highest paid pilots
Go back a decade and point to one single instance where 2 pilot groups were merged via DOH by the IBT, to prove to us that YOU aren't a liar.
Do you think it is fair the way the Large Cabin International Red-Label pilots are being chosen? Why?
Do you have the seniority to hold the new large body aircraft if it were awarded that way?
Why do you believe voting NO will lead to a raise & 401k match on January 1, did you hear that from a reliable source? Who?
Do you agree with KR's overall compensation strategy? Do you even know what it is?
You haven't read your masters book, and you haven't worked for him for very long, so why should your opinion carry any weight compared to hundreds of pilots who have?

Have a say in your future & support the IBT 1108 !!!

 

[exagony]

Warlord 19,
I'll repost until you answer.

WL,
We are still waiting for the copy of the transcripts that proves that you didn't say " that you thought it would be insulting to the dog if someone sent dog feces through the us mail to the IBT1108 Office". Please provide the transcript to prove you are not lying.

Please provide the names of companies in recent history that the 1108 represented that merged lists via DOH. Names of companies and dates please. You have been spouting off about how the SLI is going to be date of hire because you claim its how the 1108 has always done it. Please back up your claim with the companies and dates, otherwise it will just prove you have no credibility.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Warlord,
I'm also waiting for an answer as to when, in recent history, the Teamsters merged two pilot groups based on DOH? Since you said that was their policy, it shouldn't take long to share that information.

 

[Brit]

So WL if the Union Vote passes on the 15th, will you resign?

Don't think he or she will resign, but they might
insist that options pilots start pressing their shirts
and tucking them in. The slob I talked with in
Houston today sure wasn't representing the group
very well. Just my two cents. Oh...before I'm attacked,
I voted YES.

 

[el raton]

At this point, I think the "no" voters have won.

 

[Praetorian]

At this point, I think the "no" voters have won.

:laugh: It will be ok dude. ALL the FO pilots are voting yes. We've seen this movie before.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

At this point, I think the "no" voters have won.

I hope not. If the no vote wins,we will all lose.

 

[993_Pilot]

I hope not. If the no vote wins,we will all lose.

Not to worry, Praetorian is right, I doubt it will even be close. I predict a 2/3 victory for the "YES" for IBT 1108 crowd. Too bad Warlord19 won't take my bet, because I know a few good charities that could benefit.