Possible SWA T.A. pay numbers... Embrace the suck.

[HowardBorden]

So the threats by management of a "plan B" and an "alternate plan" had no influence on how the AirTran pilots voted? It didn't change the outcome. Is that what you're saying?

-----------------------------------------

In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation.

"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."

I bolded the relevant portions of that article for you. The reason analysts were calling this a negotiating ploy is because of the SWAPA scope clause which is industry leading........perhaps you've heard of it? Section One is pretty unambiguous when it comes to operating another alter ego airline.

A. SCOPE
This Agreement covers all revenue and miscellaneous flying, performed with aircraft owned or leased by the Company, or which displays Company markings, including all flying in and for the service of the Company and its affiliates. All flying covered by this Agreement shall be performed by pilots whose names appear on the Southwest Airlines Master Pilot Seniority List

 

[Clyde Frog]

The reason analysts were calling this a negotiating ploy is because of the SWAPA scope clause which is industry leading........

Umm, yeeeaah...riiiight...ahhh...that's probably it.

 

[bluesideup1]

Agreed. Ratio by category and status would have been the arbitrated outcome.

That is not what happened with the two other groups that went to arbitration. They got a worse deal than what the Airtran pilots got. So please tell my why you think it would have been different than the Mechanics and Flight Attendants who actually went to arbitration vs your imaginary results based on nothing more than the voices in your head?

 

[PCL_128]

That is not what happened with the two other groups that went to arbitration. They got a worse deal than what the Airtran pilots got. So please tell my why you think it would have been different than the Mechanics and Flight Attendants who actually went to arbitration vs your imaginary results based on nothing more than the voices in your head?

The other two groups were not pilots. Pilot seniority integrations have an established precedent. Ratio by category and status with only minor tweaks. I have absolutely zero doubt that that's what would have happened in our case, as well.

 

[HowardBorden]

Umm, yeeeaah...riiiight...ahhh...that's probably it.

Wow, another scathing retort obliterating the supposition put forth with finely crafted evidentiary findings.

 

[-9Capt]

Wow, another scathing retort obliterating the supposition put forth with finely crafted evidentiary findings.

Wow, look at all them big college words..you must be real smart.

 

[-9Capt]

The other two groups were not pilots. Pilot seniority integrations have an established precedent. Ratio by category and status with only minor tweaks. I have absolutely zero doubt that that's what would have happened in our case, as well.

Correct.

Pilot integration is different.

Always has been.

There are factors involved like mandatory retirement age and CA vs FO that other employee groups don't have to consider. A flight attendant is a flight attendant, a mechanic is a mechanic. A pilot is an FO or a CA with a known retirement date. See? Different.

 

[HowardBorden]

Wow, look at all them big college words..you must be real smart.

Just answer the question is all I ask. You posted an article about Southwest threatening a "plan-B". In that very article two industry analysts described it as a "ploy" and a "negotiating tactic". Do you believe SWA could have carried through with the threat of separate operation discussed in the article without a major violation of SWAPA scope?

 

[madjack]

-9, So better than DOH...closer to relative...well that would have been an exceptional deal for the AAI guys, especially all the CPs...RSW not so much...so in the world of arbitrated airline mergers it's better to be on the smaller, less profitable and ultimately purchased airline side...-9, you wanted an arbitrated deal because you believed it would net u a higher number on the SWA list...and well for the guys who left AAI for SW and for all the RSW too bad...should have left SW for a smaller, all round crappier airline gig and then hope to get purchased by a bigger, more profitable airline, especially if you can be a CP at the smaller, crappier airline...got it...

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

A flight attendant is a flight attendant...

But what if Johnny is now Caitlyn?

 

[-9Capt]

-9, So better than DOH...closer to relative...well that would have been an exceptional deal for the AAI guys, especially all the CPs...RSW not so much...so in the world of arbitrated airline mergers it's better to be on the smaller, less profitable and ultimately purchased airline side...-9, you wanted an arbitrated deal because you believed it would net u a higher number on the SWA list...and well for the guys who left AAI for SW and for all the RSW too bad...should have left SW for a smaller, all round crappier airline gig and then hope to get purchased by a bigger, more profitable airline, especially if you can be a CP at the smaller, crappier airline...got it...

What?
You're making massive assumptions and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say or infer any of that. However there is a reason swapa went to great lengths to avoid arbitration.

 

[-9Capt]

Just answer the question is all I ask. You posted an article about Southwest threatening a "plan-B". In that very article two industry analysts described it as a "ploy" and a "negotiating tactic". Do you believe SWA could have carried through with the threat of separate operation discussed in the article without a major violation of SWAPA scope?

Honestly I don't give a crap either way. Eventual integration was a foregone conclusion and the threats to the contrary were obvious BS...a negotiating ploy

 

[HowardBorden]

Eventual integration was a foregone conclusion and the threats to the contrary were obvious BS...a negotiating ploy

I absolutely agree, thanks for the seemingly honest response. So if it was a ploy, where does that squarely place the blame for succumbing to common management fear tactics? Trust me when I say there is plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides.

 

[-9Capt]

I absolutely agree, thanks for the seemingly honest response. So if it was a ploy, where does that squarely place the blame for succumbing to common management fear tactics? Trust me when I say there is plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides.

I getting a bit tired of discussing this but...

your scope means nothing. Swapa would've signed away those rights in half a second if management promised to slowly dismantle AirTran, take their assets, furlough their pilots and grow SW organically with the assets aquired from airtran.

All of this is meaningless speculation...my point is...your scope was completely irreverent with respect to the threats and ultimatums.

The real issue here is what the Frog mentioned. Swapa has no real leverage in contract negotiations. That's the current problem.

 

[SWA Bubba]

What?
You're making massive assumptions and putting words in my mouth. I didn't say or infer any of that. However there is a reason swapa went to great lengths to avoid arbitration.

Talk about making assumptions. Or rather, inventing "facts."

SWAPA didn't go to any lengths at all, "to avoid arbitration." The company did. I know you'd like to pretend that you don't remember, but Gary went out of his way to let both sides know, before any of this started, that HE wanted to avoid arbitration, and come up with a negotiated, voted-on SLI. He strongly reminded both sides, multiple times, that was what HE wanted. It was even memorialized in the Process Agreement that, "both sides desire a negotiated settlement." I suspect that it was his intention all along to create the SLI framework, have the union NCs fill in the details, and then have both sides vote. He couldn't have possibly telegraphed it any more clearly.

And that's exactly what happened. He also authorized SWAPA CBA pay immediately, despite the AirTran side not being efficient enough to rate that pay (plus FAT captains keeping their seats, regardless of seniority), as a big carrot for the AirTran side. When your MEC, working under ALPA mentality, refused to send it for a vote because they had planned on waiting it out to force arbitration, I'm guessing that pissed him off. He probably saw it as "bad faith," since AirTran ALPA agreed in writing that they "desired a negotiated settlement," when in reality, they had no such intention. Hence the seemingly punitive provisions in the second agreement.

Now enter you and other malcontents. Since you're ALPA, you're required to hate management already, so it's not as satisfying to blame them. They're supposed to be adversarial. Instead you invent this grand conspiracy, with no actual evidence, and despite every actual event that transpired, just so you actually have a bogeyman to blame. This way, you get to blame other pilots for "screwing you over."

Sorry dude, you can keep running your mouth about a "conspiracy" if it makes you feel better, but that's not the way it happened.

Bubba