Sure, Blow Off That College Degree

[pilotyip]

We all have a choice to make, so what's your excuse?

What are you talking about?

 

[Boxboy]

What are you talking about?

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

 

[pilotyip]

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

 

[maru657]

Of course they will. They'll see scabs like you crossing it, Maru. I bet you just can't wait.

Bubba

. You betcha bubba, gotta stomp on all you communist.

 

[Boxboy]

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

I feel pretty confident that this poor horse has been beaten, killed, processed as dog food in China, and is now ready to ship to your local Walmart.
To answer your question about my question, I was referring to people's excuse(s) for the way things turned out in their life(s). So yes, it does encompass the college degree thing but more so, the end result.
In reference to the article you posted about the other countries and how vocational education is more valued there than here in the states.... if that is the case, people should immigrate to those countries and achieve their xx dream in those countries because here in the U.S.A., a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

 

[pilotyip]

a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

A worthles college degree will not allow you to climb the corporate latter. The more you post the more you establish your self as an elitist who above those without college degrees. Telling people to leave he country if they don't want to go to college says it all.

From the Wall Street Journal, college degrees have become so useless predicting a person's ability that companies are now testing college grads to see if they know anything.

Next spring, seniors at about 200 U.S. colleges will take a new test that could prove more important to their future than final exams: an SAT-like assessment that aims to cut through grade-point averages and judge students' real value to employers.

A new test for college seniors that aims to be the SAT for prospective employers is the latest blow to the monopoly long-held by colleges and universities on what it means to be well-educated. Doug Belkin and Michael Poliakoff, American Council of Trustees and Alumni V.P. of Policy, discuss on Lunch Break. Photo: AP.

The test, called the Collegiate Learning Assessment, "provides an objective, benchmarked report card for critical thinking skills," said David Pate, dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at St. John Fisher College, a small liberal-arts school near Rochester, N.Y. "The students will be able to use it to go out and market themselves."

The test is part of a movement to find new ways to assess the skills of graduates. Employers say grades can be misleading and that they have grown skeptical of college credentials.

"For too long, colleges and universities have said to the American public, to students and their parents, 'Trust us, we're professional. If we say that you're learning and we give you a diploma it means you're prepared,' " said Michael Poliakoff, vice president of policy for the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. "But that's not true."

The new voluntary test, which the nonprofit behind it calls CLA +, represents the latest threat to the fraying monopoly that traditional four-year colleges have enjoyed in defining what it means to be well educated.

Even as students spend more on tuition?and take on increasing debt to pay for it?they are earning diplomas whose value is harder to calculate. Studies show that grade-point averages, or GPAs, have been rising steadily for decades, but employers feel many new graduates aren't prepared for the workforce.

Meanwhile, more students are taking inexpensive classes such as Massive Open Online Courses, or MOOCs, but have no way to earn a meaningful academic credential from them.

HNTB Corp., a national architectural firm with 3,600 employees, see value in new tools such as the CLA +, said Michael Sweeney, a senior vice president. Even students with top grades from good schools may not "be able to write well or make an argument," he said. "I think at some point everybody has been fooled by good grades or a good resume."

The new test "has the potential to be a very powerful tool for employers," said Ronald Gidwitz, a board member of the Council for Aid to Education, the group behind the test, and a retired chief executive of Helene Curtis, a Chicago-based hair-care company that was bought by Unilever in 1996.

Only one in four employers think that two- and four-year colleges are doing a good job preparing students for the global economy, according to a 2010 survey conducted for the Association of American Colleges and Universities.

Meanwhile, GPAs have been on the rise. A 2012 study looking at the grades of 1.5 million students from 200 four-year U.S. colleges and universities found that the percentage of A's given by teachers nearly tripled between 1940 and 2008. A college diploma is now more a mark "of social class than an indicator of academic accomplishment," said Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University geophysics professor and co-author of the study.

Employers such as General Mills Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co. long have used their own job-applicant assessments. At some companies such as Google Inc., GPAs carry less weight than they once did because they have been shown to have little correlation with job success, said a Google spokeswoman.

At Teach for America, which recruits college students to teach in rural and urban school districts, the GPA is one of just dozens of things used to winnow nearly 60,000 applicants for 5,900 positions. Candidates who make it to the second step of the process are given an in-house exam that assesses higher-order thinking, said Sean Waldheim, vice president of admissions at the group. "We've found that our own problem-solving activities work best to measure the skills we're looking for," he said.

The Council for Aid to Education, the CLA + test's creator, is a New York-based nonprofit that once was part of Rand Corp. The 90-minute exam is based on a test that has been used by 700 schools to grade themselves and improve how well their students are learning.

The CLA + will be open to anyone?whether they are graduating from a four-year university or have taken just a series of MOOCs?and students will be allowed to show their scores to prospective employees. The test costs $35, but most schools are picking up the fee. Among schools that will use CLA + are the University of Texas system, Flagler College in Florida and Marshall University in West Virginia.

The CLA + is scored on the 1600-point scale once used by the SAT "because everyone is familiar with that," said Chris Jackson, director of partner development at the Council for Aid to Education. Instead of measuring subject-area knowledge, it assesses things like critical thinking, analytical reasoning, document literacy, writing and communication.

Cory LaDuke, a 21-year-old senior at St. John Fisher, said he had mixed feelings about taking the CLA + but understood why employers might be skeptical of some graduates because "some people don't work that hard and fake their way through it," he said.

"It kind of sucks that an employer can't trust your GPA, but that's the way it is right now, so this also an opportunity," said Mr. LaDuke. "It's another way to prove yourself."

Other groups also have been seeking ways to better judge graduates' skills. The Lumina Foundation, which aims to boost the number of college graduates, is offering a way to standardize what students should know once they earn a degree. The MacArthur Foundation has helped fund a system of "badges" for online learning to show mastery of certain skills. Last Thursday, President Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to devise a ratings system to gauge colleges' performance based on student outcomes.

Meanwhile, established testing companies are introducing new tools. Earlier this year, Educational Testing Service, which developed the Graduate Record Exam, announced two certificates to reward high marks on its Proficiency Profile, which assesses critical thinking, reading, writing and math.

And ACT, the nonprofit that administers the college-admission exam of the same name, has a National Career Readiness Certificate, which measures skills such as synthesizing and applying information presented graphically.

Educational Testing Service was surprised to learn through a survey last spring that more than a quarter of businesses were using the GRE to evaluate job applicants, said David Payne, an ETS vice president.

Sean Keegan, a 2011 graduate of Tufts University, has posted his GRE on his resume because he landed in the 97th percentile, even though he isn't applying to graduate school. "I think it shows I'm relatively smart," said Mr. Keegan, who is looking for work in finance. "So far, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from employers."

Write to Douglas Belkin at [email protected]

 

[Boxboy]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

 

[pilotyip]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

 

[Boxboy]

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

Everyone else, as in the entire universe? Anyways, congrats on your scholastic achievement. Regarding making money, a wise man once told me that it is better to make money using your brain than using your back. I've done enough back breaking labor to last a lifetime.
There are more white collar high paying jobs than skilled trades. If this isn't true, 80% of the population would be in the top 10%. Why not go for the entree rather than be satisfied with an appetizer? I get it, some prefer filling up on chicken wings rather than on steak & lobster. Like I said, someone has to......

 

[pilotyip]

Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS.

I think the views that college is for everyone are outdated is something from the 80's or 90's. Here is a recent article from the WSJ supporting that veiw that college for everyone is out of date and destroying our economy

Check it out

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-bache...d-pay-1433372775?cb=logged0.28265305826631926

Enrollment trends show that more and more students are seeking these ?sub-baccalaureate? credentials and the number awarded is growing faster than the number of bachelor?s degrees earned. Between 2008 and 2013, the latest year for which the U.S. Department of Education has reported data, the number of bachelor?s degrees awarded grew by 18% while the number of associate degrees was up 38% and the number of career-focused certificates granted was up by more than 40%.

True, a bachelor?s degree is a sterling investment on average and over the long run. But many students lack the time, money or inclination to pursue this degree. Consistent evidence, largely put out by College Measures, an education-outcome initiative I run, shows that short-term degrees can lift a worker into the middle class.

Data from Colorado?s Department of Higher Education on graduates from all public colleges and universities and from three not-for-profit ones show that in 2014 the median earnings of someone with an associate of applied science degree ($54,146) 10 years after graduation is neck-and-neck with that of a bachelor?s-degree holder ($55,287).

For Colorado students with associate of applied science degrees in computer-engineering technologies, building construction, nursing or allied health, the news is even better: Their median earnings in 2014 were more than $60,000. That?s $5,000 more than the median earnings of all bachelor?s-degree graduates. Similar data collected by other states with which College Measures has worked support the rule of thumb that students who know how to fix things (technicians) or fix people (health care) will do well in the labor market.

One upshot is that community colleges lack the kinds of advising, mentoring and student services needed to graduate far more students with the credentials that will land them in the middle class.

Too often, other non-bachelor?s-degree technical-training programs, such as apprenticeships that could also help students learn highly paid skills, get short shrift as well. Students completing state-recognized apprenticeships in Florida as elevator mechanics and plumbers earn close to $70,000 just one year after completing their apprenticeship. Apprentices in industrial-machinery maintenance and millwrights earn even more, around $80,000.

Ask students about what they want from college and a large majority will say a good career and strong earnings. Ask them what they mean by college and most will say a bachelor?s degree. We need to break the bachelor?s-degree addiction by showing students that the bachelor?s degree isn?t the only path to strong earnings.
Mr. Schneider is vice president and institute fellow at the American Institutes for Research and president of College Measures. He served as the U.S. commissioner of education statistics, 2005-08.

 

[Mungusaurus]

No degree, never needed one. Doing just fine and haven't spent the last 20 years paying off student loans. In fact I have ZERO debt because I haven't had to fork over a large percentage of my take home pay to student loans.
This country has some sick fascination with college. You don't need it unless you are going into a specialist occupation, my plumber and landscaper both have degrees and are both very successful in their business but are in no way shape or form using the qualification they paid tens of thousands of dollars for.
Being a pilot is a skill, having a BA or BS degree plays no part in your ability to fly an airplane. The sooner people figure that out the sooner the "pilot shortage" will be over

 

[pilotyip]

No degree, never needed one. Doing just fine and haven't spent the last 20 years paying off student loans. In fact I have ZERO debt because I haven't had to fork over a large percentage of my take home pay to student loans.
This country has some sick fascination with college. You don't need it unless you are going into a specialist occupation, my plumber and landscaper both have degrees and are both very successful in their business but are in no way shape or form using the qualification they paid tens of thousands of dollars for.
Being a pilot is a skill, having a BA or BS degree plays no part in your ability to fly an airplane. The sooner people figure that out the sooner the "pilot shortage" will be over

Thank you a guy who gets it,

 

[DCAA320]

No degree, never needed one. Doing just fine and haven't spent the last 20 years paying off student loans. In fact I have ZERO debt because I haven't had to fork over a large percentage of my take home pay to student loans.
This country has some sick fascination with college. You don't need it unless you are going into a specialist occupation, my plumber and landscaper both have degrees and are both very successful in their business but are in no way shape or form using the qualification they paid tens of thousands of dollars for.
Being a pilot is a skill, having a BA or BS degree plays no part in your ability to fly an airplane. The sooner people figure that out the sooner the "pilot shortage" will be over

Bull$hit, those less educated could not transition from the DC-9 to the Airbus, many had to be let go. What did the company do, they dummy downed the Airbus course by 75% between 2000 and now.

Also, I have seen guys go to the wrong page numerous times in the QRH because of the lack of knowledge of the English language.

Even as recently as last year, had a captain toss the IPAD behind him because he couldn't figure it out.

There are many other duties other than just flying the plane.

I am not saying go to Bummblee freakin state and take freakin Art, go to a decent school with a decent major and you will get something out of it.

 

[DCAA320]

No degree, never needed one. Doing just fine and haven't spent the last 20 years paying off student loans. In fact I have ZERO debt because I haven't had to fork over a large percentage of my take home pay to student loans.
This country has some sick fascination with college. You don't need it unless you are going into a specialist occupation, my plumber and landscaper both have degrees and are both very successful in their business but are in no way shape or form using the qualification they paid tens of thousands of dollars for.
Being a pilot is a skill, having a BA or BS degree plays no part in your ability to fly an airplane. The sooner people figure that out the sooner the "pilot shortage" will be over

Are you AF? I worked in the the STRAT division in HTAAC/Osan, I doubt you ever made it there.

 

[pilotyip]

Bull$hit, those less educated could not transition from the DC-9 to the Airbus, many had to be let go. What did the company do, they dummy downed the Airbus course by 75% between 2000 and now.

I have to call BS on your BS, we have had 3 DC-9 CA's go to Spirit without college degrees, they are all CA's now, well except one he went to VA as first year CA. The have had guys with degrres bomb out of 320 training, I think it is more of an age think, older pilots don't learn as quickly as younger pilots.

 

[Mungusaurus]

I guess i'll have to tell the FAA to remove my A320 type from my cert because I don't have a degree and must therefore be unable to fly one! I'll be sure to throw away my ipad too because theres no way I can figure it out without that degree hanging on my wall!

 

[pilotyip]

I guess i'll have to tell the FAA to remove my A320 type from my cert because I don't have a degree and must therefore be unable to fly one! I'll be sure to throw away my ipad too because theres no way I can figure it out without that degree hanging on my wall!

I see in your avatar that your happy? You cannot do that and be a professional pilot. Oh! thats right you did not go to college and take take the "How to be unhappy" course. How are you doing without that $100K in student dept? I bet you fly because you like to

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Simply allow me to posit one notion - many of us with degrees did not take on $100k in debt, nor are making payments. No, mom and dad didn't have to foot the bill either.

 

[pilotyip]

Simply allow me to posit one notion - many of us with degrees did not take on $100k in debt, nor are making payments. No, mom and dad didn't have to foot the bill either.

Very true not all college grads have student debt, just like a college degree has nothing to do with flying airplane

 

[Boxboy]

I have to call BS on your BS, we have had 3 DC-9 CA's go to Spirit without college degrees, they are all CA's now, well except one he went to VA as first year CA.

All making less (and have not so desirable work rules) than their peers at the legacies and/or major airlines who require college degrees.

 

[pilotyip]

All making less (and have not so desirable work rules) than their peers at the legacies and/or major airlines who require college degrees.

Never argued against that one, yes you need a 4 yr degree to get on at a legacy, but I hear that some are starting to post "preferred" on their web sites. The point is you don't have to know anything. An on-line 90 credits for life experience in Gender studies will fit the bill the same as a BS in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Michigan.

I have posted the 4 year degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane and is not the only path to a successful middle class life style.

BTW: (and have not so desirable work rules), you are telling us that all those non-degreed pilots at SWA, Atlas, JB, Spirit don't have good jobs? I think many working at those might not agree with you.

 

[Boxboy]

Never argued against that one, yes you need a 4 yr degree to get on at a legacy, but I hear that some are starting to post "preferred" on their web sites. The point is you don't have to know anything. An on-line 90 credits for life experience in Gender studies will fit the bill the same as a BS in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Michigan.

I have posted the 4 year degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane and is not the only path to a successful middle class life style.

BTW: (and have not so desirable work rules), you are telling us that all those non-degreed pilots at SWA, Atlas, JB, Spirit don't have good jobs? I think many working at those might not agree with you.

With the exception of SWA, the rest of those folks are working for less compared to their counterparts in the industry. Just take a look at their pay rates and work rules.

 

[EngineThunder]

With the exception of SWA, the rest of those folks are working for less compared to their counterparts in the industry. Just take a look at their pay rates and work rules.

Don't confuse pilotyip with facts.

 

[pilotyip]

Don't confuse pilotyip with facts.

What facts would those be? The facts that a lot of posters here think JB, Atlas, VA, and Spirit are good jobs. Jobs that lots of pilots are pursuing, giving each other high fives when they get the interview and then the job offer. Those facts?

 

[Boxboy]

What facts would those be? The facts that a lot of posters here think JB, Atlas, VA, and Spirit are good jobs. Jobs that lots of pilots are pursuing, giving each other high fives when they get the interview and then the job offer. Those facts?

Weren't we talking about quantity and quality, which are objective and not subjective. I have no doubt that JB, Atlas, VA and Spirit are "good" jobs. I know some folks who work at these airlines and they are completely happy, for the time being. However, looking at them from a strictly numbers point of view, there are "better" airlines that pay far more and have better contracts (oh, surprise.... they require a 4 year degree).

 

[EngineThunder]

What facts would those be? The facts that a lot of posters here think JB, Atlas, VA, and Spirit are good jobs. Jobs that lots of pilots are pursuing, giving each other high fives when they get the interview and then the job offer. Those facts?

Are you taking a break from hanging out in the fractional section and telling them how bad unions are?

 

[Boxboy]

Don't confuse pilotyip with facts.

Oh, they are facts all right.... only in his world.

 

[DCAA320]

I have to call BS on your BS, we have had 3 DC-9 CA's go to Spirit without college degrees, they are all CA's now, well except one he went to VA as first year CA.

All making less (and have not so desirable work rules) than their peers at the legacies and/or major airlines who require college degrees.

Additionally, Spirit picked them up because they know those pilot (% wise) will not be able to leave for a major. Saves them training cost.

Did I mention they lightened up the course

 

[DCAA320]

I guess i'll have to tell the FAA to remove my A320 type from my cert because I don't have a degree and must therefore be unable to fly one! I'll be sure to throw away my ipad too because theres no way I can figure it out without that degree hanging on my wall!

Naw Bro, the A320 family was built to supply third world countries, it's just that the initial courses went way overboard, they removed all the hard stuff for ya, your type is safe, rest easy.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Very true not all college grads have student debt, just like a college degree has nothing to do with flying airplane

You're absolutely correct, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Admittedly, some of the most intelligent people I've met and worked with never completed their degree. Alas, that's not how hiring departments pick and choose candidates - there's just not enough time get to know every applicant. A college degree is often desired by many major airlines. The cull has to be made. Sure, airlines that require a degree may relax a degree requirement when supplies get tight - but the candidates hired first get the seniority. Top tier candidates as designated by hiring departments get hired first.

Does every major airline have pilots without a degree? Yes. Are they in the statistical minority? Yes. Will a pilot without a degree likely be a top tier candidate for a legacy? Not likely.

Not having a degree doesn't make someone a leper, but it limits options and can stymie progression.