Sure, Blow Off That College Degree

[Boxboy]

Lets see John goes of to college and get a degree in Gender Studies from Bubblebee State, 60 credits for life experiences in both genders. Joe just finished high and decided to join the Navy and become a Nuclear Power Plant Operator, after six years he gets out and land a $100K job as a supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant. I worked around these kids they were fantastic, so far superior to many college graduates I know. But Joe is a failure in your eyes and will never amount to anything and well John with his college degree is going to have fantastic career. Is that what you are telling me. What about the guy that drops out after two years of college joins the Army flies C-12 in VIP transportation and gets hired a NJ without a degree, he will never amount to anything compared to John. Sue went in the Army after High School worked in Tower then Approach and got out got a job in ATC, now works in Cleveland Center, making I bet over 100K+, but she also is a failure compared to John and his degree in Gender Studies.

-John, with his Gender Studies 4 year degree, can check that 4 year college degree box and can either A) pursue a masters or even a Ph.D. and make himself more marketable, or B) fill a position at a company requiring a 4 year college degree (probably at the institute where they'll chop off Bruce Jenner's pecker). John can also become a cop or a fireman and make more than his peers without a college degree doing the exact same job. He will also be looked at more favorably for a management position since he has a college degree.
-Joe, with his Nuclear Power Plant experience, may land a good job but he will never make it up the chain to a higher paying management position because of the lack of a 4 year degree.
-The college dropout warrant officer, C-12 pilot, though he/she is fully qualified to fly commercially, will not get hired by a major airline due to the lack of a college degree.
-Sue, ex-Army ATC, will/can work at Cleveland Center making over $100K and that job does not require a 4 year degree, by law. That is indeed a good deal, if one can get accepted and make it through the program.

Your arguments are based on emotions. The huge chip on your shoulder is weighing you down and you take this way too personally. I don't think that people without a college degree are failures and I never said that so again, don't put words in my mouth. The rules that we have to play by are not fair; I agree totally but it is what it is. Everybody has an excuse and an a$$hole. There are doers then there are talkers. We all have a choice to make, so what's your excuse?

 

[NEDude]

I think the key issue is what do you want to do with your life and where you want to go. If you want to be a high school social studies teacher, then you are going to need a some sort of liberal arts degree - political science, history, etc. If you want to become a doctor you will need to an undergrad degree in some sort of life sciences like biology. If you want to become a plumber or an auto mechanic you will need vocational training. There is no 'one size fits all' approach to higher education. I think the problem is, and it has been mentioned in this thread, is that vocational education has been seriously undervalued in the United States. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics and more are very much needed and are honorable and satisfying career choices.

Vocational education reminds me of a joke my Dad used to tell me as a kid. ACME corporation was having trouble with their Doohickey machine and it was backing up the entire production line. Nobody in the plant could get it to run and finally management decided to call in an outside mechanic. After walking around the machine for ten minutes the mechanic stopped and swiftly kicked the machine. It suddenly sprang to life and began running smoothly. The mechanic then handed the manager the bill for his services. The manager was shocked to see the bill was $1,000. Angrily he demanded the mechanic lower his bill because all he did was kick the machine. The mechanic took the bill back and wrote an itemized listing of his services. It read: Kicking the machine - $1, knowing where to kick the machine - $999.

I do not think it will be too long before plumbers, electricians, mechanics and other similar professions will be able charge like the mechanic in the joke because people who know how to make the things run are disappearing rapidly.

 

[NEDude]

-John, with his Gender Studies 4 year degree, can check that 4 year college degree box and can either A) pursue a masters or even a Ph.D. and make himself more marketable, or B) fill a position at a company requiring a 4 year college degree (probably at the institute where they'll chop off CAITLYN Jenner's pecker). John can also become a cop or a fireman and make more than his peers without a college degree doing the exact same job. He will also be looked at more favorably for a management position since he has a college degree.
-

Fixed it for you based on the news today. LOL

 

[DCAA320]

I don't buy it, I look at a few of my nieces and nephews with tons of student debt, all in their 30's. They have degrees in Art, Photography, and French History. The degree has opened no doors 10 years after graduation. Well that is if you don't count working in an art gallery for min wage, working in a nursing home, and working at a book store as a stock clerk. But I look at others in my family without degrees who learned skills in the militarily, pilot, ATC they have great jobs. I look at my brother in-law, two years at an auto tech school, owns his own business make well into six figures. You are telling me that degrees in art, photography and french history degrees are going to offer more opportunities than those who are educated to do something but do not have a degree?

BTW: I don't mind the age thing at all, if things work out for you you may be old some day also:laugh:

Come on pilotyippie, Art, Photography, French freakin History, of course you are going to be unemployed. Maybe Airbus will hire your relatives.

Are those still actual majors?

 

[DCAA320]

Oh DCA, you just had to waive the steak at the tiger cage.

It was a slow day at the office

 

[tomgoodman]

If you want a degree in Apiary Science, you can't top Bumblebee State.

 

[Boxboy]

Fixed it for you based on the news today. LOL

uke:

 

[BentOver]

My non-college educated friends are doing great out here in the islands... Hotels are always looking for bell men, servers, deck hands, and bar backs.. All in their mid-upper 30's....And all are envious of the career path I chose.

Who knows how much college helps, but I'll take my chances with the education.

And as many pointed out... Hiring departments set the rules, not YIPs personnel opinion. ( which he has been waxing poetic about for at least the last 5 years or more). He's well known in the fractional board as being a broken record.

 

[SIG600]

Please, we are not talking about Yale, U of M, or even MIT as the universal example of getting a college degree; we are talking about a degree from Bumblebee State. The degree from Bumblebee State requires no time on campus, no classroom attendance, and only money. Yet the Bumblebee State will still check the box in the lower left corner, same as Yale.

Many college graduate tried getting into Navy Flight Training in the mid 60?s to avoid being drafted into the Army, many did not make it because the intelligence levels required to have a high probability of successful program completion were in excess of those who attended college. Yet 2 year degree guys got in and finished. How can that be? That includes my Aircraft Commander I flew with in Vietnam, one of the finest sticks and people I have ever known.

Lets see John goes of to college and get a degree in Gender Studies from Bubblebee State, 60 credits for life experiences in both genders. Joe just finished high and decided to join the Navy and become a Nuclear Power Plant Operator, after six years he gets out and land a $100K job as a supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant. I worked around these kids they were fantastic, so far superior to many college graduates I know. But Joe is a failure in your eyes and will never amount to anything and well John with his college degree is going to have fantastic career. Is that what you are telling me. What about the guy that drops out after two years of college joins the Army flies C-12 in VIP transportation and gets hired a NJ without a degree, he will never amount to anything compared to John. Sue went in the Army after High School worked in Tower then Approach and got out got a job in ATC, now works in Cleveland Center, making I bet over 100K+, but she also is a failure compared to John and his degree in Gender Studies.

You have stated your case there are only two options college or nothing, I just happen to think this is not the case in life.

Quick story a few years back I am traveling in the back, sitting next to a guy, he finds out I am a Navy guy. He laments that is daughter Valedictorian of her class, elected not to go to college, but to join the Navy and become a Nuclear Power Plant Operator. He was disappointed because she was not going to college. I explained she had gotten into an elite program, where at the end her of her 6 years, the Navy paid pay her $100,000 to sign up another four years. Because there were so many high paying jobs out there for people with her skills and knowledge. That she would have the GI Bill to go to college for free. He felt much better about his daughter?s choice after we talked.

Good education for the guy. Clearly he was incapable of doing any research and instead sticking to stereotypes. If she gets through the program (not easy) she'll probably be doing better than her dad. After her enlistment is up she'll have more jobs thrown at her than she'll know what to do with.

 

[pilotyip]

Good education for the guy. Clearly he was incapable of doing any research and instead sticking to stereotypes. If she gets through the program (not easy) she'll probably be doing better than her dad. After her enlistment is up she'll have more jobs thrown at her than she'll know what to do with.

I think the key issue is what do you want to do with your life and where you want to go. If you want to be a high school social studies teacher, then you are going to need a some sort of liberal arts degree - political science, history, etc. If you want to become a doctor you will need to an undergrad degree in some sort of life sciences like biology. If you want to become a plumber or an auto mechanic you will need vocational training. There is no 'one size fits all' approach to higher education. I think the problem is, and it has been mentioned in this thread, is that vocational education has been seriously undervalued in the United States. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics and more are very much needed and are honorable and satisfying career choices.

I do not think it will be too long before plumbers, electricians, mechanics and other similar professions will be able charge like the mechanic in the joke because people who know how to make the things run are disappearing rapidly.

Thanks some people get it. What are there six airlines in the country that make the college degree a show stopper. Careers at Spirit, SWA, Atlas, NJ, and I know few guys at UAL, AAL, and DAL without degrees.

Further fuel from the WJS on how college is harming the country's kids.

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a ?college for all? emphasis may actually harm many American students ? keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career.

?The American system for preparing young people to lead productive and prosperous lives as adults is clearly badly broken,? concludes the report, ?Pathways to Prosperity?

?It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don?t get college degrees], but we?re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,? says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard?s Graduate School of Education.

Emphasizing college as the only path may actually cause some students ? who are bored in class but could enjoy learning that?s more entwined with the workplace ? to drop out, he adds. ?If the image [of college] is more years of just sitting in classrooms, that?s not very persuasive.?

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a ?qualification? that has real currency in the labor market..

In the US, vocational education has a bad rap, Schwartz acknowledges ? and often for good reason, given the poor quality and its traditional role as a dumping ground for poorer students and students of color. And he?s not advocating the sort of tracked systems that Germany and Switzerland have, in which poorly performing students are often pushed into vocational tracks as early as middle school.
Related stories

A Georgetown University study projected 14 million job openings between 2008 and 2018 in the ?middle-skill occupations,? such as electricians and paralegals, in which workers need an associate?s degree or occupational certificate.

The college-for-all rhetoric should be broadened, the Harvard report concludes, to become ?post-high-school credential for all.?

But the report also says that will take a massive overhaul to a system that, right now, doesn?t do a good job showing kids what the link is between their learning and the jobs to which they aspire.

Employers should be more active in the learning process ? whether through internships, visits with students, or brief ?try out? experiences ? and students need more opportunities to master the kind of ?soft skills? likely to help them in the workplace, perhaps through team projects, says Ronald Ferguson, another of the report?s authors and a co-chairman of Harvard?s Pathways to Prosperity Initiative.

?If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we?re cheating those kids who aren?t going,? Professor Ferguson says. ?A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.?

 

[pilotyip]

We all have a choice to make, so what's your excuse?

What are you talking about?

 

[Boxboy]

What are you talking about?

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

 

[pilotyip]

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

 

[maru657]

Of course they will. They'll see scabs like you crossing it, Maru. I bet you just can't wait.

Bubba

. You betcha bubba, gotta stomp on all you communist.

 

[Boxboy]

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

I feel pretty confident that this poor horse has been beaten, killed, processed as dog food in China, and is now ready to ship to your local Walmart.
To answer your question about my question, I was referring to people's excuse(s) for the way things turned out in their life(s). So yes, it does encompass the college degree thing but more so, the end result.
In reference to the article you posted about the other countries and how vocational education is more valued there than here in the states.... if that is the case, people should immigrate to those countries and achieve their xx dream in those countries because here in the U.S.A., a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

 

[pilotyip]

a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

A worthles college degree will not allow you to climb the corporate latter. The more you post the more you establish your self as an elitist who above those without college degrees. Telling people to leave he country if they don't want to go to college says it all.

From the Wall Street Journal, college degrees have become so useless predicting a person's ability that companies are now testing college grads to see if they know anything.

Next spring, seniors at about 200 U.S. colleges will take a new test that could prove more important to their future than final exams: an SAT-like assessment that aims to cut through grade-point averages and judge students' real value to employers.

A new test for college seniors that aims to be the SAT for prospective employers is the latest blow to the monopoly long-held by colleges and universities on what it means to be well-educated. Doug Belkin and Michael Poliakoff, American Council of Trustees and Alumni V.P. of Policy, discuss on Lunch Break. Photo: AP.

The test, called the Collegiate Learning Assessment, "provides an objective, benchmarked report card for critical thinking skills," said David Pate, dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at St. John Fisher College, a small liberal-arts school near Rochester, N.Y. "The students will be able to use it to go out and market themselves."

The test is part of a movement to find new ways to assess the skills of graduates. Employers say grades can be misleading and that they have grown skeptical of college credentials.

"For too long, colleges and universities have said to the American public, to students and their parents, 'Trust us, we're professional. If we say that you're learning and we give you a diploma it means you're prepared,' " said Michael Poliakoff, vice president of policy for the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. "But that's not true."

The new voluntary test, which the nonprofit behind it calls CLA +, represents the latest threat to the fraying monopoly that traditional four-year colleges have enjoyed in defining what it means to be well educated.

Even as students spend more on tuition?and take on increasing debt to pay for it?they are earning diplomas whose value is harder to calculate. Studies show that grade-point averages, or GPAs, have been rising steadily for decades, but employers feel many new graduates aren't prepared for the workforce.

Meanwhile, more students are taking inexpensive classes such as Massive Open Online Courses, or MOOCs, but have no way to earn a meaningful academic credential from them.

HNTB Corp., a national architectural firm with 3,600 employees, see value in new tools such as the CLA +, said Michael Sweeney, a senior vice president. Even students with top grades from good schools may not "be able to write well or make an argument," he said. "I think at some point everybody has been fooled by good grades or a good resume."

The new test "has the potential to be a very powerful tool for employers," said Ronald Gidwitz, a board member of the Council for Aid to Education, the group behind the test, and a retired chief executive of Helene Curtis, a Chicago-based hair-care company that was bought by Unilever in 1996.

Only one in four employers think that two- and four-year colleges are doing a good job preparing students for the global economy, according to a 2010 survey conducted for the Association of American Colleges and Universities.

Meanwhile, GPAs have been on the rise. A 2012 study looking at the grades of 1.5 million students from 200 four-year U.S. colleges and universities found that the percentage of A's given by teachers nearly tripled between 1940 and 2008. A college diploma is now more a mark "of social class than an indicator of academic accomplishment," said Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University geophysics professor and co-author of the study.

Employers such as General Mills Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co. long have used their own job-applicant assessments. At some companies such as Google Inc., GPAs carry less weight than they once did because they have been shown to have little correlation with job success, said a Google spokeswoman.

At Teach for America, which recruits college students to teach in rural and urban school districts, the GPA is one of just dozens of things used to winnow nearly 60,000 applicants for 5,900 positions. Candidates who make it to the second step of the process are given an in-house exam that assesses higher-order thinking, said Sean Waldheim, vice president of admissions at the group. "We've found that our own problem-solving activities work best to measure the skills we're looking for," he said.

The Council for Aid to Education, the CLA + test's creator, is a New York-based nonprofit that once was part of Rand Corp. The 90-minute exam is based on a test that has been used by 700 schools to grade themselves and improve how well their students are learning.

The CLA + will be open to anyone?whether they are graduating from a four-year university or have taken just a series of MOOCs?and students will be allowed to show their scores to prospective employees. The test costs $35, but most schools are picking up the fee. Among schools that will use CLA + are the University of Texas system, Flagler College in Florida and Marshall University in West Virginia.

The CLA + is scored on the 1600-point scale once used by the SAT "because everyone is familiar with that," said Chris Jackson, director of partner development at the Council for Aid to Education. Instead of measuring subject-area knowledge, it assesses things like critical thinking, analytical reasoning, document literacy, writing and communication.

Cory LaDuke, a 21-year-old senior at St. John Fisher, said he had mixed feelings about taking the CLA + but understood why employers might be skeptical of some graduates because "some people don't work that hard and fake their way through it," he said.

"It kind of sucks that an employer can't trust your GPA, but that's the way it is right now, so this also an opportunity," said Mr. LaDuke. "It's another way to prove yourself."

Other groups also have been seeking ways to better judge graduates' skills. The Lumina Foundation, which aims to boost the number of college graduates, is offering a way to standardize what students should know once they earn a degree. The MacArthur Foundation has helped fund a system of "badges" for online learning to show mastery of certain skills. Last Thursday, President Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to devise a ratings system to gauge colleges' performance based on student outcomes.

Meanwhile, established testing companies are introducing new tools. Earlier this year, Educational Testing Service, which developed the Graduate Record Exam, announced two certificates to reward high marks on its Proficiency Profile, which assesses critical thinking, reading, writing and math.

And ACT, the nonprofit that administers the college-admission exam of the same name, has a National Career Readiness Certificate, which measures skills such as synthesizing and applying information presented graphically.

Educational Testing Service was surprised to learn through a survey last spring that more than a quarter of businesses were using the GRE to evaluate job applicants, said David Payne, an ETS vice president.

Sean Keegan, a 2011 graduate of Tufts University, has posted his GRE on his resume because he landed in the 97th percentile, even though he isn't applying to graduate school. "I think it shows I'm relatively smart," said Mr. Keegan, who is looking for work in finance. "So far, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from employers."

Write to Douglas Belkin at [email protected]

 

[Boxboy]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

 

[pilotyip]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

 

[Boxboy]

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

Everyone else, as in the entire universe? Anyways, congrats on your scholastic achievement. Regarding making money, a wise man once told me that it is better to make money using your brain than using your back. I've done enough back breaking labor to last a lifetime.
There are more white collar high paying jobs than skilled trades. If this isn't true, 80% of the population would be in the top 10%. Why not go for the entree rather than be satisfied with an appetizer? I get it, some prefer filling up on chicken wings rather than on steak & lobster. Like I said, someone has to......

 

[pilotyip]

Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS.

I think the views that college is for everyone are outdated is something from the 80's or 90's. Here is a recent article from the WSJ supporting that veiw that college for everyone is out of date and destroying our economy

Check it out

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-bache...d-pay-1433372775?cb=logged0.28265305826631926

Enrollment trends show that more and more students are seeking these ?sub-baccalaureate? credentials and the number awarded is growing faster than the number of bachelor?s degrees earned. Between 2008 and 2013, the latest year for which the U.S. Department of Education has reported data, the number of bachelor?s degrees awarded grew by 18% while the number of associate degrees was up 38% and the number of career-focused certificates granted was up by more than 40%.

True, a bachelor?s degree is a sterling investment on average and over the long run. But many students lack the time, money or inclination to pursue this degree. Consistent evidence, largely put out by College Measures, an education-outcome initiative I run, shows that short-term degrees can lift a worker into the middle class.

Data from Colorado?s Department of Higher Education on graduates from all public colleges and universities and from three not-for-profit ones show that in 2014 the median earnings of someone with an associate of applied science degree ($54,146) 10 years after graduation is neck-and-neck with that of a bachelor?s-degree holder ($55,287).

For Colorado students with associate of applied science degrees in computer-engineering technologies, building construction, nursing or allied health, the news is even better: Their median earnings in 2014 were more than $60,000. That?s $5,000 more than the median earnings of all bachelor?s-degree graduates. Similar data collected by other states with which College Measures has worked support the rule of thumb that students who know how to fix things (technicians) or fix people (health care) will do well in the labor market.

One upshot is that community colleges lack the kinds of advising, mentoring and student services needed to graduate far more students with the credentials that will land them in the middle class.

Too often, other non-bachelor?s-degree technical-training programs, such as apprenticeships that could also help students learn highly paid skills, get short shrift as well. Students completing state-recognized apprenticeships in Florida as elevator mechanics and plumbers earn close to $70,000 just one year after completing their apprenticeship. Apprentices in industrial-machinery maintenance and millwrights earn even more, around $80,000.

Ask students about what they want from college and a large majority will say a good career and strong earnings. Ask them what they mean by college and most will say a bachelor?s degree. We need to break the bachelor?s-degree addiction by showing students that the bachelor?s degree isn?t the only path to strong earnings.
Mr. Schneider is vice president and institute fellow at the American Institutes for Research and president of College Measures. He served as the U.S. commissioner of education statistics, 2005-08.