Sure, Blow Off That College Degree

[pilotyip]

We all have a choice to make, so what's your excuse?

What are you talking about?

 

[Boxboy]

What are you talking about?

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

 

[pilotyip]

Not picking on you, if that's what you're asking. You can replace "your" with "ya'll's" if that makes you feel better.

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

 

[maru657]

Of course they will. They'll see scabs like you crossing it, Maru. I bet you just can't wait.

Bubba

. You betcha bubba, gotta stomp on all you communist.

 

[Boxboy]

Still don't follow you must be the college degree thing

I feel pretty confident that this poor horse has been beaten, killed, processed as dog food in China, and is now ready to ship to your local Walmart.
To answer your question about my question, I was referring to people's excuse(s) for the way things turned out in their life(s). So yes, it does encompass the college degree thing but more so, the end result.
In reference to the article you posted about the other countries and how vocational education is more valued there than here in the states.... if that is the case, people should immigrate to those countries and achieve their xx dream in those countries because here in the U.S.A., a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

 

[pilotyip]

a college degree is still required to climb the corporate ladder and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Like it or not, it is the way it is.

A worthles college degree will not allow you to climb the corporate latter. The more you post the more you establish your self as an elitist who above those without college degrees. Telling people to leave he country if they don't want to go to college says it all.

From the Wall Street Journal, college degrees have become so useless predicting a person's ability that companies are now testing college grads to see if they know anything.

Next spring, seniors at about 200 U.S. colleges will take a new test that could prove more important to their future than final exams: an SAT-like assessment that aims to cut through grade-point averages and judge students' real value to employers.

A new test for college seniors that aims to be the SAT for prospective employers is the latest blow to the monopoly long-held by colleges and universities on what it means to be well-educated. Doug Belkin and Michael Poliakoff, American Council of Trustees and Alumni V.P. of Policy, discuss on Lunch Break. Photo: AP.

The test, called the Collegiate Learning Assessment, "provides an objective, benchmarked report card for critical thinking skills," said David Pate, dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at St. John Fisher College, a small liberal-arts school near Rochester, N.Y. "The students will be able to use it to go out and market themselves."

The test is part of a movement to find new ways to assess the skills of graduates. Employers say grades can be misleading and that they have grown skeptical of college credentials.

"For too long, colleges and universities have said to the American public, to students and their parents, 'Trust us, we're professional. If we say that you're learning and we give you a diploma it means you're prepared,' " said Michael Poliakoff, vice president of policy for the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. "But that's not true."

The new voluntary test, which the nonprofit behind it calls CLA +, represents the latest threat to the fraying monopoly that traditional four-year colleges have enjoyed in defining what it means to be well educated.

Even as students spend more on tuition?and take on increasing debt to pay for it?they are earning diplomas whose value is harder to calculate. Studies show that grade-point averages, or GPAs, have been rising steadily for decades, but employers feel many new graduates aren't prepared for the workforce.

Meanwhile, more students are taking inexpensive classes such as Massive Open Online Courses, or MOOCs, but have no way to earn a meaningful academic credential from them.

HNTB Corp., a national architectural firm with 3,600 employees, see value in new tools such as the CLA +, said Michael Sweeney, a senior vice president. Even students with top grades from good schools may not "be able to write well or make an argument," he said. "I think at some point everybody has been fooled by good grades or a good resume."

The new test "has the potential to be a very powerful tool for employers," said Ronald Gidwitz, a board member of the Council for Aid to Education, the group behind the test, and a retired chief executive of Helene Curtis, a Chicago-based hair-care company that was bought by Unilever in 1996.

Only one in four employers think that two- and four-year colleges are doing a good job preparing students for the global economy, according to a 2010 survey conducted for the Association of American Colleges and Universities.

Meanwhile, GPAs have been on the rise. A 2012 study looking at the grades of 1.5 million students from 200 four-year U.S. colleges and universities found that the percentage of A's given by teachers nearly tripled between 1940 and 2008. A college diploma is now more a mark "of social class than an indicator of academic accomplishment," said Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University geophysics professor and co-author of the study.

Employers such as General Mills Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co. long have used their own job-applicant assessments. At some companies such as Google Inc., GPAs carry less weight than they once did because they have been shown to have little correlation with job success, said a Google spokeswoman.

At Teach for America, which recruits college students to teach in rural and urban school districts, the GPA is one of just dozens of things used to winnow nearly 60,000 applicants for 5,900 positions. Candidates who make it to the second step of the process are given an in-house exam that assesses higher-order thinking, said Sean Waldheim, vice president of admissions at the group. "We've found that our own problem-solving activities work best to measure the skills we're looking for," he said.

The Council for Aid to Education, the CLA + test's creator, is a New York-based nonprofit that once was part of Rand Corp. The 90-minute exam is based on a test that has been used by 700 schools to grade themselves and improve how well their students are learning.

The CLA + will be open to anyone?whether they are graduating from a four-year university or have taken just a series of MOOCs?and students will be allowed to show their scores to prospective employees. The test costs $35, but most schools are picking up the fee. Among schools that will use CLA + are the University of Texas system, Flagler College in Florida and Marshall University in West Virginia.

The CLA + is scored on the 1600-point scale once used by the SAT "because everyone is familiar with that," said Chris Jackson, director of partner development at the Council for Aid to Education. Instead of measuring subject-area knowledge, it assesses things like critical thinking, analytical reasoning, document literacy, writing and communication.

Cory LaDuke, a 21-year-old senior at St. John Fisher, said he had mixed feelings about taking the CLA + but understood why employers might be skeptical of some graduates because "some people don't work that hard and fake their way through it," he said.

"It kind of sucks that an employer can't trust your GPA, but that's the way it is right now, so this also an opportunity," said Mr. LaDuke. "It's another way to prove yourself."

Other groups also have been seeking ways to better judge graduates' skills. The Lumina Foundation, which aims to boost the number of college graduates, is offering a way to standardize what students should know once they earn a degree. The MacArthur Foundation has helped fund a system of "badges" for online learning to show mastery of certain skills. Last Thursday, President Barack Obama said he wants the federal government to devise a ratings system to gauge colleges' performance based on student outcomes.

Meanwhile, established testing companies are introducing new tools. Earlier this year, Educational Testing Service, which developed the Graduate Record Exam, announced two certificates to reward high marks on its Proficiency Profile, which assesses critical thinking, reading, writing and math.

And ACT, the nonprofit that administers the college-admission exam of the same name, has a National Career Readiness Certificate, which measures skills such as synthesizing and applying information presented graphically.

Educational Testing Service was surprised to learn through a survey last spring that more than a quarter of businesses were using the GRE to evaluate job applicants, said David Payne, an ETS vice president.

Sean Keegan, a 2011 graduate of Tufts University, has posted his GRE on his resume because he landed in the 97th percentile, even though he isn't applying to graduate school. "I think it shows I'm relatively smart," said Mr. Keegan, who is looking for work in finance. "So far, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from employers."

Write to Douglas Belkin at [email protected]

 

[Boxboy]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

 

[pilotyip]

Piloyip, you refuse to see the truth. This is no rocket science. After 3 pages of discussions, you are still pissing into the wind. It's simple.... The Rules of Engagement (ROE) are established by society. Btw, since you're ex-mil, I'd figure you would know what ROE means even if you don't have a college degree! Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS. That's all I'm saying. It's not about who is better and who is not, otherwise that is what an elitist would say. Your chip on the shoulder seems to be in control, not you.

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

 

[Boxboy]

You are a late comer to this exchange everyone else knows I have a BS from Michigan State and a MA from Central Michigan University. I still don't make as much money as a welder, nuclear power plant operator, an ATC person in Cleveland Center or my brother in law and his auto repair shop. But I made more than my brother who also has a BA and MA in his career at GM moving up the food chain in manufacturing. Working is about money, and there are too many very good paying jobs that are only available to the skilled trades.

Everyone else, as in the entire universe? Anyways, congrats on your scholastic achievement. Regarding making money, a wise man once told me that it is better to make money using your brain than using your back. I've done enough back breaking labor to last a lifetime.
There are more white collar high paying jobs than skilled trades. If this isn't true, 80% of the population would be in the top 10%. Why not go for the entree rather than be satisfied with an appetizer? I get it, some prefer filling up on chicken wings rather than on steak & lobster. Like I said, someone has to......

 

[pilotyip]

Regardless of how smart or stupid, we live and die by the ROE rules set by our society. You can cry all you want and say how unfair it is, but IT IS.

I think the views that college is for everyone are outdated is something from the 80's or 90's. Here is a recent article from the WSJ supporting that veiw that college for everyone is out of date and destroying our economy

Check it out

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-bache...d-pay-1433372775?cb=logged0.28265305826631926

Enrollment trends show that more and more students are seeking these ?sub-baccalaureate? credentials and the number awarded is growing faster than the number of bachelor?s degrees earned. Between 2008 and 2013, the latest year for which the U.S. Department of Education has reported data, the number of bachelor?s degrees awarded grew by 18% while the number of associate degrees was up 38% and the number of career-focused certificates granted was up by more than 40%.

True, a bachelor?s degree is a sterling investment on average and over the long run. But many students lack the time, money or inclination to pursue this degree. Consistent evidence, largely put out by College Measures, an education-outcome initiative I run, shows that short-term degrees can lift a worker into the middle class.

Data from Colorado?s Department of Higher Education on graduates from all public colleges and universities and from three not-for-profit ones show that in 2014 the median earnings of someone with an associate of applied science degree ($54,146) 10 years after graduation is neck-and-neck with that of a bachelor?s-degree holder ($55,287).

For Colorado students with associate of applied science degrees in computer-engineering technologies, building construction, nursing or allied health, the news is even better: Their median earnings in 2014 were more than $60,000. That?s $5,000 more than the median earnings of all bachelor?s-degree graduates. Similar data collected by other states with which College Measures has worked support the rule of thumb that students who know how to fix things (technicians) or fix people (health care) will do well in the labor market.

One upshot is that community colleges lack the kinds of advising, mentoring and student services needed to graduate far more students with the credentials that will land them in the middle class.

Too often, other non-bachelor?s-degree technical-training programs, such as apprenticeships that could also help students learn highly paid skills, get short shrift as well. Students completing state-recognized apprenticeships in Florida as elevator mechanics and plumbers earn close to $70,000 just one year after completing their apprenticeship. Apprentices in industrial-machinery maintenance and millwrights earn even more, around $80,000.

Ask students about what they want from college and a large majority will say a good career and strong earnings. Ask them what they mean by college and most will say a bachelor?s degree. We need to break the bachelor?s-degree addiction by showing students that the bachelor?s degree isn?t the only path to strong earnings.
Mr. Schneider is vice president and institute fellow at the American Institutes for Research and president of College Measures. He served as the U.S. commissioner of education statistics, 2005-08.