Alpa at Flex?

[el raton]

Would Alpa be a better choice than the IBT? I've heard they're showing interest.

 

[exagony]

------

 

[dime line]

Would Alpa be a better choice than the IBT? I've heard they're showing interest.

Sure they are, what a wonderful job they have done at the regionals, just what we want

 

[Propilot77]

Would Alpa be a better choice than the IBT? I've heard they're showing interest.

Hahahahahahahahaaha!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

ALPA is no better. Been there, done that.

 

[Praetorian]

Would Alpa be a better choice than the IBT? I've heard they're showing interest.

It seems everyone goes through the "ALPA" stage during the early days of an organizing campaign in the Frac industry.

Fact is they've never been interested in representing anything other than 121 pilots and they've never done a very good job of representing the pilots at the regionals. It's a dollars and cents thing. We'd be a fly spec in their overall picture.

 

[doh]

We have the same contact number Travel Management had. He didn't return their calls and he's not returning ours. Pretty much says it all.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Here are some facts and thoughts:

• Both, Flexjet and Netjets, are on ALPA's radar. How do I know this? Because I've talked to the head organizer for ALPA along with some other Flexjet pilots.

• We all know that unions are about dues. Here's some math: In a prior life at an ALPA represented regional, we had roughly 1,700 pilots. Average salary probably around $60,000ish X 1,700 X 2% = $2,000,000. Average salary at Flex, maybe $125,000ish X 400+ (by year's end) X 2% = $1,000,000. Factor in Netjets who make more than Flex pilots but for the sake of argument use $125,000 again and there's another $7,500,000 based on 3,000 pilots. Why on earth wouldn't they want to tap into that? When brought to the organizers attention, he seemed seemed a bit intrigued at those numbers.

• A major complaint I had with ALPA was that they had too many irons in the fire. They couldn't fairly represent all of their competing interests. I.e. ASA, Comair, and Delta. They couldn't represent one group without another losing out. If the 1108 tries to represent Flexjet and FLOPs, not only are we going to be upset with each other but also with the 1108 because ultimately there will be losers at both places.

• It's been said that the 1108 has the knowledge, experience, and "goods" on Ricci. Probably all true. But that doesn't mean that ALPA can't be educated. FLOPs pilots have been trying to educate us for nearly 18 months now so why couldn't ALPA learn also?

In the end, it may all be for nothing trying to push the ALPA angle. I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to be a Teamster but in the end may reluctantly reside to the fact that it's my only option. I really want nothing to do with either group but realize that there needs to be a document signed by both sides going forward.

Flame away!

 

[993_Pilot]

I have no desire to flame. We can always revisit the idea of who would better represent the pilot group at a later point in time, but the bottom line is that we all need to be represented and (almost as important) be united against One Sky/DAC, because you can rest assured that they are 100% united against us.

 

[Praetorian]

Here are some facts and thoughts:

? Both, Flexjet and Netjets, are on ALPA's radar. How do I know this? Because I've talked to the head organizer for ALPA along with some other Flexjet pilots.

? We all know that unions are about dues. Here's some math: In a prior life at an ALPA represented regional, we had roughly 1,700 pilots. Average salary probably around $60,000ish X 1,700 X 2% = $2,000,000. Average salary at Flex, maybe $125,000ish X 400+ (by year's end) X 2% = $1,000,000. Factor in Netjets who make more than Flex pilots but for the sake of argument use $125,000 again and there's another $7,500,000 based on 3,000 pilots. Why on earth wouldn't they want to tap into that? When brought to the organizers attention, he seemed seemed a bit intrigued at those numbers.

? A major complaint I had with ALPA was that they had too many irons in the fire. They couldn't fairly represent all of their competing interests. I.e. ASA, Comair, and Delta. They couldn't represent one group without another losing out. If the 1108 tries to represent Flexjet and FLOPs, not only are we going to be upset with each other but also with the 1108 because ultimately there will be losers at both places.

? It's been said that the 1108 has the knowledge, experience, and "goods" on Ricci. Probably all true. But that doesn't mean that ALPA can't be educated. FLOPs pilots have been trying to educate us for nearly 18 months now so why couldn't ALPA learn also?

In the end, it may all be for nothing trying to push the ALPA angle. I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to be a Teamster but in the end may reluctantly reside to the fact that it's my only option. I really want nothing to do with either group but realize that there needs to be a document signed by both sides going forward.

Flame away!

I think you need to be honest with yourself. Isn't it true that the only reason you're lobbying for ALPA is that you like the name "Airline pilots association", better then you like the name "Teamsters"?

As for your numbers. Even with the higher salaries we would still only have a combined group of under a thousand pilots. So compare our numbers to those of one of the legacy carriers, remember that in the ALPA system 70% of our dues would go to ALPA national (22% with IBT) and tell me you really - really really - believe ALPA would do anything for us other then collect our dues.

 

[Propilot77]

Here are some facts and thoughts:

? Both, Flexjet and Netjets, are on ALPA's radar. How do I know this? Because I've talked to the head organizer for ALPA along with some other Flexjet pilots.

? We all know that unions are about dues. Here's some math: In a prior life at an ALPA represented regional, we had roughly 1,700 pilots. Average salary probably around $60,000ish X 1,700 X 2% = $2,000,000. Average salary at Flex, maybe $125,000ish X 400+ (by year's end) X 2% = $1,000,000. Factor in Netjets who make more than Flex pilots but for the sake of argument use $125,000 again and there's another $7,500,000 based on 3,000 pilots. Why on earth wouldn't they want to tap into that? When brought to the organizers attention, he seemed seemed a bit intrigued at those numbers.

? A major complaint I had with ALPA was that they had too many irons in the fire. They couldn't fairly represent all of their competing interests. I.e. ASA, Comair, and Delta. They couldn't represent one group without another losing out. If the 1108 tries to represent Flexjet and FLOPs, not only are we going to be upset with each other but also with the 1108 because ultimately there will be losers at both places.

? It's been said that the 1108 has the knowledge, experience, and "goods" on Ricci. Probably all true. But that doesn't mean that ALPA can't be educated. FLOPs pilots have been trying to educate us for nearly 18 months now so why couldn't ALPA learn also?

In the end, it may all be for nothing trying to push the ALPA angle. I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to be a Teamster but in the end may reluctantly reside to the fact that it's my only option. I really want nothing to do with either group but realize that there needs to be a document signed by both sides going forward.

Flame away!

Many people have contacted ALPA. Now tell me how long ago they were contacted and why does it take so long to receive their answer? It's just a ruse. It shouldnt be taking this long to see if they are interested. If they truly did have interest it would have happened by now. Not flaming just have come to terms that the Teamsters really are the only game and if not then I will admit I was wrong.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I think you need to be honest with yourself. Isn't it true that the only reason you're lobbying for ALPA is that you like the name "Airline pilots association", better then you like the name "Teamsters"?

As for your numbers. Even with the higher salaries we would still only have a combined group of under a thousand pilots. So compare our numbers to those of one of the legacy carriers, remember that in the ALPA system 70% of our dues would go to ALPA national (22% with IBT) and tell me you really - really really - believe ALPA would do anything for us other then collect our dues.

It has nothing to do with having the word "airline" attached to the title. I left the the airlines on my own free will. You and FR8DAWG777 desperately want to label me as some spikey hair, iPod toting, Mesa RJ pilot. I try to make some serious points and your first response to that is sophmor-onic. As far as the numbers go, who cares if they represent 400 or thousands? If that's the case, then why did they agree to represent the North American pilots a few years back with their 200 or so pilots making less than us? I believe ALPA has a whole would give a crap about us as much as Teamsters as a whole would.

Many people have contacted ALPA. Now tell me how long ago they were contacted and why does it take so long to receive their answer? It's just a ruse. It shouldnt be taking this long to see if they are interested. If they truly did have interest it would have happened by now. Not flaming just have come to terms that the Teamsters really are the only game and if not then I will admit I was wrong.

I should've included this point in my original post but part of the delay for now is that they are working to confirm that 91k and 135 operators would for sure be covered under the RLA. They're confident that we would be but just crossing their T's and dotting their I's.

Like I originally said, this very well may fall flat and go no where. I'm just relaying information that I have been able to obtain.

 

[Propilot77]

It has nothing to do with having the word "airline" attached to the title. I left the the airlines on my own free will. You and FR8DAWG777 desperately want to label me as some spikey hair, iPod toting, Mesa RJ pilot. I try to make some serious points and your first response to that is sophmor-onic. As far as the numbers go, who cares if they represent 400 or thousands? If that's the case, then why did they agree to represent the North American pilots a few years back with their 200 or so pilots making less than us? I believe ALPA has a whole would give a crap about us as much as Teamsters as a whole would.



I should've included this point in my original post but part of the delay for now is that they are working to confirm that 91k and 135 operators would for sure be covered under the RLA. They're confident that we would be but just crossing their T's and dotting their I's.

Like I originally said, this very well may fall flat and go no where. I'm just relaying information that I have been able to obtain.

It's also going to be hard for them to sell to the 121 carriers that their dues now support 135 operators. I shouldn't take almost 2 months to find out if we're under the RLA. Just my .02

 

[V1 Rotate]

It's also going to be hard for them to sell to the 121 carriers that their dues now support 135 operators. I shouldn't take almost 2 months to find out if we're under the RLA. Just my .02

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But what if they say yes? What would you say then? I'm willing to admit that I'd join Teamsters if ALPA says no. Also, why are the Teamsters allowed to represent 121 and 135?

 

[The Architect]

Carrier

I should've included this point in my original post but part of the delay for now is that they are working to confirm that 91k and 135 operators would for sure be covered under the RLA. They're confident that we would be but just crossing their T's and dotting their I's.

The fact that "they are working to confirm that 91k and 135 operators" are covered by the RLA should tell you that they don't know what the hell they are doing.

Yes - the pilots at Flexjet meet the requirements of a covered "carrier."

 

[Propilot77]

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But what if they say yes? What would you say then? I'm willing to admit that I'd join Teamsters if ALPA says no. Also, why are the Teamsters allowed to represent 121 and 135?

If they say yes things could get interesting to say the least.
I would still have to think about it only because ALPA has never represented a fractional or 135 carrier because of its own ego, We're not airline. They have never shown interest until they got a hold of pay scales. Also with the teamsters at least you have a national fund and backing ALPA doesn't have that kind of power or purse. Look, no one is a fan of Teamsters but they have been through this before and ALPA is just now realizing how many pilots there are in the fractional and 135 world. No one gets permission to represent 121 it's based on the unions wanting to represent the pilots of a carrier and the carrier voting on representation.

 

[993_Pilot]

Too many pilots are getting caught up with being a "Teamster" because it evokes images of mobsters from days gone by. The IBT 1108 is a stand alone local with the backing of a strong national union. Let's not forget the huge advantages we have by controlling our own Local. If you take nothing else away from this thread, at least consider that. If you can honestly say that you think we would be better off as a small potatoes carrier competing with the legacy carriers for the attention of ALPA, than in control of our own local with the IBT, then you really need to do some more thinking.

 

[V1 Rotate]

If they say yes things could get interesting to say the least.
I would still have to think about it only because ALPA has never represented a fractional or 135 carrier because of its own ego, We're not airline. They have never shown interest until they got a hold of pay scales. Also with the teamsters at least you have a national fund and backing ALPA doesn't have that kind of power or purse. Look, no one is a fan of Teamsters but they have been through this before and ALPA is just now realizing how many pilots there are in the fractional and 135 world. No one gets permission to represent 121 it's based on the unions wanting to represent the pilots of a carrier and the carrier voting on representation.

I know unions are "allowed" to represent whomever they choose. It was insinuated earlier that ALPA was an airline only union and therefore couldn't possibly be able to represent 135 because they're too into the 121 stuff. My point was was that Teamsters double dips into both, among other industries, so why should we believe that Teamsters are the only ones capable of representing multiple industries?

 

[Praetorian]

It has nothing to do with having the word "airline" attached to the title. I left the the airlines on my own free will. You and FR8DAWG777 desperately want to label me as some spikey hair, iPod toting, Mesa RJ pilot. I try to make some serious points and your first response to that is sophmor-onic. As far as the numbers go, who cares if they represent 400 or thousands? If that's the case, then why did they agree to represent the North American pilots a few years back with their 200 or so pilots making less than us? I believe ALPA has a whole would give a crap about us as much as Teamsters as a whole would.

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I think you need to be honest with yourself. Isn't it true that the only reason you're lobbying for ALPA is that you like the name "Airline pilots association", better then you like the name "Teamsters"?

As for your numbers. Even with the higher salaries we would still only have a combined group of under a thousand pilots. So compare our numbers to those of one of the legacy carriers, remember that in the ALPA system 70% of our dues would go to ALPA national (22% with IBT) and tell me you really - really really - believe ALPA would do anything for us other then collect our dues.

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions. I've held the beliefs I have about ALPA and Teamsters long before I even knew who he was. I understand that the 1108 has a wealth of knowledge and are ahead of ALPA in that arena. But did you know that at one point ALPA didn't represent any 121 carriers but now they are the dominant force in that arena? Point is, it's not an impossible task for them to jump in. It's more than "just not wanting to be a Teamster" to me. I've laid out my reasons why I feel the way I do and I admit that i'ts a long shot. If it fails, then I'll live with it, something I don't think you're willing to do if the tide were to shift. Either way, at least I'm on board now with getting a contract between us and Kenn. Have you compromised on anything lately?