Alpa at Flex?

[Propilot77]

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But what if they say yes? What would you say then? I'm willing to admit that I'd join Teamsters if ALPA says no. Also, why are the Teamsters allowed to represent 121 and 135?

If they say yes things could get interesting to say the least.
I would still have to think about it only because ALPA has never represented a fractional or 135 carrier because of its own ego, We're not airline. They have never shown interest until they got a hold of pay scales. Also with the teamsters at least you have a national fund and backing ALPA doesn't have that kind of power or purse. Look, no one is a fan of Teamsters but they have been through this before and ALPA is just now realizing how many pilots there are in the fractional and 135 world. No one gets permission to represent 121 it's based on the unions wanting to represent the pilots of a carrier and the carrier voting on representation.

 

[993_Pilot]

Too many pilots are getting caught up with being a "Teamster" because it evokes images of mobsters from days gone by. The IBT 1108 is a stand alone local with the backing of a strong national union. Let's not forget the huge advantages we have by controlling our own Local. If you take nothing else away from this thread, at least consider that. If you can honestly say that you think we would be better off as a small potatoes carrier competing with the legacy carriers for the attention of ALPA, than in control of our own local with the IBT, then you really need to do some more thinking.

 

[V1 Rotate]

If they say yes things could get interesting to say the least.
I would still have to think about it only because ALPA has never represented a fractional or 135 carrier because of its own ego, We're not airline. They have never shown interest until they got a hold of pay scales. Also with the teamsters at least you have a national fund and backing ALPA doesn't have that kind of power or purse. Look, no one is a fan of Teamsters but they have been through this before and ALPA is just now realizing how many pilots there are in the fractional and 135 world. No one gets permission to represent 121 it's based on the unions wanting to represent the pilots of a carrier and the carrier voting on representation.

I know unions are "allowed" to represent whomever they choose. It was insinuated earlier that ALPA was an airline only union and therefore couldn't possibly be able to represent 135 because they're too into the 121 stuff. My point was was that Teamsters double dips into both, among other industries, so why should we believe that Teamsters are the only ones capable of representing multiple industries?

 

[Praetorian]

It has nothing to do with having the word "airline" attached to the title. I left the the airlines on my own free will. You and FR8DAWG777 desperately want to label me as some spikey hair, iPod toting, Mesa RJ pilot. I try to make some serious points and your first response to that is sophmor-onic. As far as the numbers go, who cares if they represent 400 or thousands? If that's the case, then why did they agree to represent the North American pilots a few years back with their 200 or so pilots making less than us? I believe ALPA has a whole would give a crap about us as much as Teamsters as a whole would.

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I think you need to be honest with yourself. Isn't it true that the only reason you're lobbying for ALPA is that you like the name "Airline pilots association", better then you like the name "Teamsters"?

As for your numbers. Even with the higher salaries we would still only have a combined group of under a thousand pilots. So compare our numbers to those of one of the legacy carriers, remember that in the ALPA system 70% of our dues would go to ALPA national (22% with IBT) and tell me you really - really really - believe ALPA would do anything for us other then collect our dues.

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions. I've held the beliefs I have about ALPA and Teamsters long before I even knew who he was. I understand that the 1108 has a wealth of knowledge and are ahead of ALPA in that arena. But did you know that at one point ALPA didn't represent any 121 carriers but now they are the dominant force in that arena? Point is, it's not an impossible task for them to jump in. It's more than "just not wanting to be a Teamster" to me. I've laid out my reasons why I feel the way I do and I admit that i'ts a long shot. If it fails, then I'll live with it, something I don't think you're willing to do if the tide were to shift. Either way, at least I'm on board now with getting a contract between us and Kenn. Have you compromised on anything lately?

 

[Praetorian]

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions. I've held the beliefs I have about ALPA and Teamsters long before I even knew who he was. I understand that the 1108 has a wealth of knowledge and are ahead of ALPA in that arena. But did you know that at one point ALPA didn't represent any 121 carriers but now they are the dominant force in that arena? Point is, it's not an impossible task for them to jump in. It's more than "just not wanting to be a Teamster" to me. I've laid out my reasons why I feel the way I do and I admit that i'ts a long shot. If it fails, then I'll live with it, something I don't think you're willing to do if the tide were to shift. Either way, at least I'm on board now with getting a contract between us and Kenn. Have you compromised on anything lately?

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with you. I've tried to be conciliatory with you and explain how the $$ effect how the two unions in question would represent a small pilot group like ours. And yes I think you and others have a problem wrapping your minds around the thought of being a "Teamster", with all you think that entails.

I hope you will give what I've said about this some thought and do a little research of your own. Maybe even float your ideas on the 1108s message board.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions.

What? He is your boss. He determines if you fly a shiny new jet. You sound like one of the pilots that are willing to fly broken airplanes. Uncle loves pilots like you.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with you. I've tried to be conciliatory with you and explain how the $$ effect how the two unions in question would represent a small pilot group like ours. And yes I think you and others have a problem wrapping your minds around the thought of being a "Teamster", with all you think that entails.

I hope you will give what I've said about this some thought and do a little research of your own. Maybe even float your ideas on the 1108s message board.

There's no tit for tat on my end. I simply stated some research that I conducted and you attacked me for it. I said in my last post that I understand the advantage that the 1108 has. I get it. But your petty attacks on me trying to label me don't help your cause of attracting membership. The worse part of it is that in the end I'll probably end up a Teamster and your little potshots at me will seem as though they won the war. As far as the 1108 board goes, from what I'm reading it's nothing more than Flight Info on steroids. With the exception of some well written MB articles, there's no constructive dialogue on there and I refuse to expose myself to it. Here, and Yammer, are plenty enough. Believe me, I've taken plenty of heat from both sides of the fence over the years, from both management and fellow pilots. You continue your agenda and I'll continue mine and if we cross paths somewhere, dinner is on me.

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions.

What? He is your boss. He determines if you fly a shiny new jet. You sound like one of the pilots that are willing to fly broken airplanes. Uncle loves pilots like you.

What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all. Let me make it clear to you and others: I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SHINY NEW JETS. I care about the nearly $10,000 grand in 401k and bonus that I just lost and three sick days on top of that. Aren't these the issues that we're suppose to rally around and unite against? I don't care for Kenn's management style nor do I trust it fully. Do I fly broken airplanes? Try again.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Also, why are the Teamsters allowed to represent 121 and 135?

Why not? That's just a silly question.

 

[V1 Rotate]

.....

 

[G4dude]

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

It seems to me an in-house union would be better. What are the arguments against that?

 

[V1 Rotate]

Serious question: What exactly is the Teamsters merger policy? I ask because under Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny-Mohawk, there are are provisions that allow for nonrepresented or other union represented groups to negotiate on their behalf. I can't find anywhere in the FLOPs contract, particularly in Section 1, that lays out how an SLI would be forged if both groups were represented by the 1108. Only that integration would be determined by current Teamsters policy, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If it says "staple them to the bottom," then obviously we don't want that and need to know that up front before we vote you guys in. Or, if it lays out a plan, or plans, then at least we'd know up front if those plans were acceptable should an SLI occur. If the majority of us don't like the 1108's merger policy, then we might want to consider representing ourselves (which we have our legal right to do so according to the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs) or hiring someone else. This isn't a pro-ALPA post, just making the point. So, can someone explain in plain English how the lists would be integrated if wer're both represented by Teamsters?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

V1;"What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all."

I get from your post you are superior to the rest of us and no, I am not one of the leaders in the 1108. I will gladly sound like a clown while you live on your knees. I lived that life and frankly, I have chose not to return to it. As for dinner? I'll take the cash instead.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1;"What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all."

I get from your post you are superior to the rest of us and no, I am not one of the leaders in the 1108. I will gladly sound like a clown while you live on your knees. I lived that life and frankly, I have chose not to return to it. As for dinner? I'll take the cash instead.

Not superior to you or anyone else. Just trying to have dialogue and apparently you're not interested in that. Are you able to respond to my last post? Btw, the dinner offer wasn't for you.

 

[NewFlex]

Do you really think flight info is the best place for a serious question V1?

Go to the 1108 site, but honestly. Do your own research outside of any Internet chat room.

Always best policy.