AA Pilot Leader Wants America West Pilots in Seniority Talks - Article

[Turtle21]

This says it all really.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/East-West_NIC_DOH_pic.pdf

Interesting to note where the USAPA officers fall on the NIC vs. DOH.

That's a chapter somewhere in the middle of the story.

Soon enough three arbitrators will tell the conclusion of the story, and we will all live happily ever after with a fair and equitable seniority list. Finally!

 

[Flopgut]

Regarding the Nic, I have asked many times over the years for one person to provide me one document that requires the Nic to be used. Just one document. Just one document that requires the Nic to be used...

That thing* three signatures got written on, that wasn't a "document"?

*binding arbitration agreement

 

[Turtle21]

That thing* three signatures got written on, that wasn't a "document"?

*binding arbitration agreement

More rhetorical questions based on implicit assumptions....

Just show us the legal document. Give us a link.

HINT: it doesn't exist. That is why THREE courts said the Nic was not required.

 

[Flopgut]

You entered into binding arbitration with with George Nicolau. That's all that has to be said. You're beneath living up to your word. That's all you've succeeded in proving after all these years. (And throw away $) It was a painful pill to swallow, and I mostly do blame Prater. But you have to see you've made things much worse than just going along with the Nic [big picture]

 

[Turtle21]

You entered into binding arbitration with with George Nicolau. That's all that has to be said. You're beneath living up to your word. That's all you've succeeded in proving after all these years. (And throw away $) It was a painful pill to swallow, and I mostly do blame Prater. But you have to see you've made things much worse than just going along with the Nic [big picture]

Implicit assumptions and no proof. Marty Harper should have come clean with you guys when the 9th outed him years ago.

 

[Flopgut]

You're stuck on the specifics of the Nic, you need to rededicate yourself to what the word "binding" means. Some very close version of the Nic has to prevail. The other side has rights too.

 

[Turtle21]

You're stuck on the specifics of the Nic, you need to rededicate yourself to what the word "binding" means. Some very close version of the Nic has to prevail. The other side has rights too.

I couldn't care less about the specifics of the Nic.

Yes, all sides have rights in a contract.

"Binding" is an inherent quality of any contract. The explicit terms are indeed binding, but implicit assumptions are not.

The court ruled that USAPA and USAir fully complied with all the binding requirements of the 2005 TA... and now all agreements prior to Dec 2013 are nullified and replaced with the MOU and Protocol Agreement.

Soon enough we will have a JCBA and will all live happily ever after.

 

[Draginass]

What will the east pilots do if they don't get DOH in the coming arbitration?

What will the west pilots do if the Nicolau list is not used?

 

[General Lee]

I have talked with the CLT rep personally. I know his opinion.

Regarding the Nic, I have asked many times over the years for one person to provide me one document that requires the Nic to be used. Just one document. Just one document that requires the Nic to be used....

Plenty of people have big mouths but not no one has a legal document.

I hear ya, but that's like saying "yeah, I lost the hand at poker, but I'm not handing over my money to the casino, I don't see a legal document...." You all agreed to a binding agreement. Not abiding by it is also morally wrong, like a forgotten hand shake. Maybe you don't see that, but everyone else does, and it's bad for all other arbitration cases in the future. (Now there will be an "out" if you have the numbers)

Again, maybe you don't mind being morally bankrupt. It's a shame if that's the case. When you agree to do something, you should follow through.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

I hear ya, but that's like saying "yeah, I lost the hand at poker, but I'm not handing over my money to the casino, I don't see a legal document...." You all agreed to a binding agreement. Not abiding by it is also morally wrong, like a forgotten hand shake. Maybe you don't see that, but everyone else does, and it's bad for all other arbitration cases in the future. (Now there will be an "out" if you have the numbers)

Again, maybe you don't mind being morally bankrupt. It's a shame if that's the case. When you agree to do something, you should follow through.



Bye Bye---General Lee

In a casino you put your chips on the table before you get your cards.

In the Nicolau arbitration both sides had additional cards to play after Nic finished dealing. ALPA set it up that way. The West demanded that they have options written into the contract incase Nic wasn't fair in their eyes. As it turns out the options that the West demanded ended up helping the East when a majority of the East thought the Nic was not tolerable.

People go to court to get justice, and when they lose they whine about morality that everyone believes in, except of course the judge that sent them away empty handed.

 

[Flopgut]

In the Nicolau arbitration both sides had additional cards to play after Nic finished dealing. ALPA set it up that way. The West demanded that they have options written into the contract incase Nic wasn't fair in their eyes. As it turns out the options that the West demanded ended up helping the East when a majority of the East thought the Nic was not tolerable.

Hang on, was one of those options ignoring the arbitration and forming a new union? Cause I missed that.

Aren't "contract" and "arbitration" two different things?

 

[Turtle21]

Hang on, was one of those options ignoring the arbitration and forming a new union? Cause I missed that.

Aren't "contract" and "arbitration" two different things?

Yes, arbitration and a contract are two different things. Arbitrations are entered into by a contract (or a court order, but not in this case) and the results of the arbitration are effective to the extent of the contract that circumscribes it, but not more so. Arbitrations have no inherent authority or binding nature. They never have. I has always been that the terms of the contract are what matter.

The courts have said USAPA and USAir abided by the terms of the contract.. one court even said ALPA would have been free to do what USAPA did under the terms of the 2005 TA.

 

[Bringupthebird]

That is why THREE courts said the Nic was not required.

No court has ever said any such thing because the Nic was never on trial. The courts did say that USAPA had not violated their DFR YET. The question before the courts has always been, Has USAPA violated their DFR to the west pilots. That is why USAPA rallied the troops and promised to defend your careers, but then went back to feeding at the same FPL trough as their predecessors.

Now that they have been dispatched with a long overdue tree chipper, they still want to advance their progrom against the west pilots while hiding behind the APA's apron.

You DO know that's not going to happen, don't you?

 

[General Lee]

In a casino you put your chips on the table before you get your cards.

In the Nicolau arbitration both sides had additional cards to play after Nic finished dealing. ALPA set it up that way. The West demanded that they have options written into the contract incase Nic wasn't fair in their eyes. As it turns out the options that the West demanded ended up helping the East when a majority of the East thought the Nic was not tolerable.

People go to court to get justice, and when they lose they whine about morality that everyone believes in, except of course the judge that sent them away empty handed.

You signed the agreement BEFORE going through arbitration. You agreed to Nicolau BEFORE he started (he was one of your choices). Soooo, you put your chips down before you got your cards. I don't see your point that there was more to do afterwards. Sure, you needed to get a joint contract, but because your side disagreed with the SLI award, your side made it more difficult to achieve that joint contract. You guys wanted the West to change the award, and they didn't have to, so your group put them in "Purgatory" as punishment, keeping them out West, not allowing them to enjoy the upgrades out East, all because you had a Majority by a small margin. Tell me that isn't correct.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

You signed the agreement BEFORE going through arbitration...

Yes. All parties to the 2005 TA signed it before they went to arbitration... that is why the arbitration occurred.

All parties also agreed to other provision regarding the SLI to happen subsequent to the arbitration, and that is exactly why both USAir and USAPA always prevailed in the lawsuits against them.... they followed the contract. All sides did.

Whatever. Many in the west will feel morally superior and will continue to misuse the scab word. Its their consolation prize for demanding Nic or Nothing.

 

[General Lee]

Yes. All parties to the 2005 TA signed it before they went to arbitration... that is why the arbitration occurred.

All parties also agreed to other provision regarding the SLI to happen subsequent to the arbitration, and that is exactly why both USAir and USAPA always prevailed in the lawsuits against them.... they followed the contract. All sides did.

Whatever. Many in the west will feel morally superior and will continue to misuse the scab word. Its their consolation prize for demanding Nic or Nothing.

I don't think everyone felt entitled prior to what happened. But I will tell you this, placing them in "Pergatory" (PHX) and not letting them out unless they agreed to your demands, sure didn't help your cause in their eyes. They dislike you guys to the core. They had to pay money to YOUR union, and that "union" used their dues against them! How nutty is that? That is ridiculous. So, now the East has two groups that want to go after them. The NIC award is still out there, the APA knows it, and the first arbitration panel will decide if an award that was decided by one of their own peers is valid today. We shall see.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

I don't think everyone felt entitled prior to what happened. But I will tell you this, placing them in "Pergatory" (PHX) and not letting them out unless they agreed to your demands, sure didn't help your cause in their eyes. They dislike you guys to the core. They had to pay money to YOUR union, and that "union" used their dues against them! How nutty is that? That is ridiculous. So, now the East has two groups that want to go after them. The NIC award is still out there, the APA knows it, and the first arbitration panel will decide if an award that was decided by one of their own peers is valid today. We shall see.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Its all about what you negotiate.

If someone thinks the contract is not followed they can sue for justice (for ten years and be proven wrong if they want).

If someone doesn't like the contract they have they can negotiate... APA and USAPA negotiated, AOL is now submitting to the terms APA and USAPA negotiated, but the submission is not over yet.. if they want, they can negotiate some better terms, or be dragged along according to APA and USAPA's terms.

 

[Flopgut]

Turtle: is it not correct that the prevailing merger policy wording toward furloughs (the wording that created this entire colossal cluster f) read the way it did because USAir had it changed to that interpretation in 1992?

I know you couldn't care less about the West, but to the rest of us it doesn't look like they've really done much wrong at all. You East guys have put on one bat poop crazy display for a lot of years. Maybe now you can settle down and let things run their course? Stop acting like lawyers. Maybe don't be shocked when an arbitrator doesn't hand you everything you think you deserve?

 

[Flopgut]

Can you imagine being the next arbitrator(s) that have to work with USAir East? That would SUCK

 

[Turtle21]

Can you imagine being the next arbitrator(s) that have to work with USAir East? That would SUCK

I suspect arbitrators express less emotions than a bunch of mistletoe... It's everyone below that will be amorous. YMMV.