USAPA/APA and arbitration

[Bringupthebird]

You must cultivate such ignorance with the fertilizer USAPA supplies. Are you making plans for a big VDR with your handful of USAPA loyalists?

Panic much?

 

[Turtle21]

you ratified an mou that specified the sli would be consistent with mb...not exactly mb itself. The nmb could care less about sli. It's all addressed in the mou you agreed to. The apa know how to be a union, ustupid does not. I'm not at all worried about the apa. As long as uskkabba dies a quick painful death, i'm happy.

"consistent"

 

[DCAA320]

The APA know how to be a union,...I'm not at all worried about the APA...

This makes you stupid.

 

[becket]

This makes you stupid.

I'll take the APA any day over this fake SKKABB union that has cause over a billion dollars worth of damage to it's own pilot group. USAPA is nothing but an organized crime syndicate...the dumbest, most ineffective band of idiotic criminals to ever fumble their way through life.:laugh:

 

[Bringupthebird]

This makes you stupid.

Said the man who pays the highest dues in the industry so that his "leaders" could force him to remain on BK wages for a decade even after management unilaterally offered a raise.

Yeah, bow to the expert.

 

[DCAA320]

Said the man who pays the highest dues in the industry so that his "leaders" could force him to remain on BK wages for a decade even after management unilaterally offered a raise.

Yeah, bow to the expert.

Did I mention USAPA? You missed the point but I don't expect much from you and your buds.

 

[radarlove]

well, I guess we can't move completely away from slap-fighting. But this situation comes across as odd. So the JCBA comes first? Is that in your MOU? So when APA is in charge, they pick merger committees, or do they just assign the current merger committee at USAPA to the other side of the table?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems possibile, if non-plausible, that the APA could assign hand-picked pilots to "represent" US Airways pilot's interests during an arbitration and completely dismiss their current merger committee, or whatever USAPA calls it. That seems a bit too much in APA's favor, how do they deal with DFR if they get to hand-pick both sides of the arbitration table?

 

[FlyinGuy]

Here comes the Nic followed by a typical AA beat down!!

 

[Bringupthebird]

well, I guess we can't move completely away from slap-fighting. But this situation comes across as odd. So the JCBA comes first? Is that in your MOU? So when APA is in charge, they pick merger committees, or do they just assign the current merger committee at USAPA to the other side of the table?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems possibile, if non-plausible, that the APA could assign hand-picked pilots to "represent" US Airways pilot's interests during an arbitration and completely dismiss their current merger committee, or whatever USAPA calls it. That seems a bit too much in APA's favor, how do they deal with DFR if they get to hand-pick both sides of the arbitration table?

Versus writing a single SLI methodology into your so-called constitution and then claiming you are forced to use it because it's in there?

Because APA is the representative (de facto) of the new American regardless of USAPA's lame-duck status, they will do very little of the SLI process other than hand over their list and the combined AWA/US list which was previously accepted by US management - the Nic. By sending it directly to arbitration they absolve themselves of any DFR responsibility.

Unless they do something completely stupid like feigning surprise at the arbitrators award and then try to overturn it. But who in their right mind would try that knowing they would face a losing DFR case?

Again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

BTW- Radar, you seem to have asked the same question a number of times. Is there a different answer you are hoping to get?

 

[Marko Ramius]

Basically this whole thing looks like Parker's lawyers found a way to box in USAPA and put them on the run. Winning the most recent suit vs the West simply put into writing what I'm sure the lawyers for the company knew all along: with the process outlined in the MOU, APA was highly likely to be certified as the collective bargaining agent for both sides by the time this actually got to arbitration. Personally I'm sure USAPA's lawyers were aware of this privately, but why pass up on the $$$ and the chance to slide out of the dfr vs the west on a technicality? They'll continue to scream publicly that this is about protecting all US pilots from the big bad APA and put out plenty of AA-TWA boogeyman.

Thing is paragraph 10 of the MOU requires that the both the seniority integration process and the arbitration to be consistent with MB. Paragraph a2 of MB outlines why APA has to comply with section 3 of Allegheny-Mohawk which contains the 'fair and equitable' language on the integration. APA definitely wants what's best for their pilots, but they're also not about to put themselves in a big dfr situation as the landscape has changed considerably since they merged with TWA and Reno. They'll likely appoint East and West committees and let them do their thing, and therein lies the true rub for USAPA imo. They don't want the original Nic, and updated Nic, or any testimony about what's happened between East/West for the last 9 years to get in front of the arbitrators(silly since it's such a small community but I digress). They'll probably also say that they're worried about APA will choose for the respective committees but that's silly. There's not a pilot on the East who is going to put the Nic or anything resembling it on the table as the basis of their list and I think APA could care less. Let the East domiciles come up with their committee and PHX come up with theirs. Both committees will probably spend just as much time arguing about their past as they will about how to combine the lists going forward. The AA side of the future/interim APA will be free to make any argument they want to an arbitrator without fear as the other side will be free to say what they wish. At the end of the day, AA already had the upper hand with the larger group, more wide bodies and probably fewer bases that will be affected by post merger changes. The infighting on the East/West will probably add more to their issues on this SLI than anything else.

Even if USAPA finds a way to be the sole agent at the table, it's not like the Nic and it's issues are going to go into the closet. Besides the fact that pretty much every SLI award I've seen has considerable background on company histories and how the current lists came to be, there's nothing precluding APA from bringing it all up. The MOU lets both USAPA and APA request any relevant info on the merger from the company in paragraph 6. If USAPA elects to ignore or gloss over the last 9 years, you can be sure that APA will bring it up if for no other reason than to put the credibility of USAPA's testimony under the scope.

This all seems like USAPA's last gasp at being able to yell the loudest and be the biggest dillsnick in the room. They've got the right to do it, even if it's somewhat questionable, but I don't think they'll succeed long term. What will be really interesting is what Parker does if they do in fact get their foot in the door again. You can bet there is a group of lawyers more devious than any of us here, plotting that out as we speak. Honestly, I'm not even sure what USAPA's plan is if they do in fact get an injunction. Looks like US/AA and APA have 21 days to respond to the suit according to USAPA and by the time the judge decides it will probably be sometime in April. At that point, assuming they win the injunction, from what I can tell from MB and Allegheny-Mohawk it would only refer the same dispute to a panel of arbitrators who would be expected to render a decision on the dispute within 90 days. I guess they just want another few months of upgrades on the East side. Of course, since the transition agreement is gone, there's nothing stopping Parker from opening up West bases in current East domiciles for those vacancies as long as the block hour mins are met. Not saying he loves the West anymore than the East, but I think he does want USAPA out of his hair and snuffing out any legal or practical reasons for their existence will likely be his goal. What an absolute embarrassment this whole thing has been.

 

[TWA Dude]

Both committees will probably spend just as much time arguing about their past as they will about how to combine the lists going forward.

Marko Ramius:

Agree with most of what you wrote. Just want to add that the West Merger Committee has retained Jeff Freund, possibly the best RLA attorney (and of course the same guy we had for the Nicolau arbitration). APA has Wes Kennedy, also highly qualified. The East has Pat Szymanski, their in-house guy.

What this means is that at least two teams will not just be fighting, but fighting smart.

 

[vetrider]

Marko for President. I had to go to the urban dictionary for 'dilsnick.' What a perfect word for usapa. A usapa pin after the word would complete it nicely.

 

[radarlove]

BTW- Radar, you seem to have asked the same question a number of times. Is there a different answer you are hoping to get?

No, I just didn't understand the rhetoric. It's weird to me that the US Airways guys won't be represented at the arbitrator's table (if that is the case) and that the Nic award would get used.

What started this whole question in my mind was the fact that the Cactus pilots think they are going to have a seat at the table, which is weird too. Possible, but hard to figure out where everyone fits. USAPA is out as soon as APA takes over, that is clear. But is the USAPA merger committee? How about the Cactus folks? Do they get to make an argument?

I think USAPA screwed themselves by not agreeing to a protocol, I'm just wondering if I'm correct.

 

[radarlove]

They'll likely appoint East and West committees and let them do their thing,

That's what I was wondering about. Three parties at the table, with the Nic award hanging over everyone's head like a Shakespearean ghost? Then does APA pay for the consultants and lawyers for all three sides? And the arbitration? Or has Parker agreed to pick up the tab?

I've been watching the US Airways Cactus saga from the outside for almost five years, i still scratch my head at the ball of confusion.

 

[Turtle21]

Basically this whole thing looks like Parker's lawyers found a way to......

....divide the New American pilot group into fighting factions for at least a decade or two!!

Parker could not care less which group gets the upper hand as long as they keep fighting.

 

[Jim]

....divide the New American pilot group into fighting factions for at least a decade or two!!

Parker could not care less which group gets the upper hand as long as they keep fighting.

Handed to him on a platter by the lack of integrity of USAirways East pilots reneging on a binding arbitration.

APA will become the sole union and will form 3 committees: AA, East and West. It will go to an arbitrator. The arbitrator will put great weight on the Nic list since it was the results of a binding arbitration and accepted (just not implemented) by the former USAirways management. AA and the West will respect the arbitrated list. East will once again renege and start the court battle once more. Parker will get to keep his upper hand due to the infighting, once again caused solely by a lack of integrity on the part of the East pilots.

 

[Marko Ramius]

That's what I was wondering about. Three parties at the table, with the Nic award hanging over everyone's head like a Shakespearean ghost? Then does APA pay for the consultants and lawyers for all three sides? And the arbitration? Or has Parker agreed to pick up the tab?

I've been watching the US Airways Cactus saga from the outside for almost five years, i still scratch my head at the ball of confusion.

It appears that paragraph 7 of the LOA requires Parker to pick up the tab so long as it's not for litigation vs US/AA or their affiliates like the present issue. So they will be paying for the actual talks/arbitration and according TWA Dude above it looks like all 3 of the main entities already have some sort of counsel on retainer.

As I said above, personally I think the Nic in some form was always going to be hanging around these talks regardless. Even if USAPA decided to ignore it completely in their arguments to the panel, it's gonna come out one way on another. The arbitration community is small and it's silly to think that they aren't aware of what has occurred previously. Most awards contain at least some preamble type explanation as to how the companies and lists came to be as they are presently and the Nic is a big part of that(pretty much all of it!)

Even USAPA succeeds in excluding the West from a seat at the table, it seems likely that APA will use the Nic and events surrounding it to impeach the credibility of USAPA's arguments. Maybe they want to make them look bad for glossing over the history between the two sides. Maybe they want to make an argument about how some of the East pilots got their current statuses over the last nine years relative to the West and what that should or should mean integration wise. How and what they use it for doesn't really matter, it just seems unlikely that the Nic doesn't come up and the MOU doesn't preclude it from coming up. It still seems more likely that USAPA is just trying to delay to snag a few more bids before the arbitration. Especially since paragraph 10 (b) of the MOU protects from bump and flush and those already in training for a new seat at the time of SLI.

One of the interesting things to me about this deal is that unlike most other mergers, you don't hear most of the squawking about specific methods of integration between the sides, but about who will be doing the integration talks.
I assume that this is because most guys on either side of the fence don't really have any feel for what it could look like. I know I don't. UAL moved a lot of assets around before the ISL came out which almost certainly had some effect on how the arbitrated listed worked practically.

I wonder if Parker will try and move some of his UsAirways assets around ahead of ISL to blunt any potential effects down the road. For example, lets say theoretically that the West gets seniority more in line with what the Nic had within the context of the new AA list which is what they want. Let's also say that the East is right and that the PHX crew domicile shrinks dramatically once all the block hour/fleet mins go away. Those bumped out of PHX likely wouldn't have anywhere to go other than current East domiciles, JFK or MIA. The soft spot in that scenario seniority wise would be the 3rd listers and the East furloughees stapled on the Nic. Paragraph 10 (b) wouldn't protect anybody in that scenario and would likely result in increased training costs to the company. If they think that's a possibility I could see them keep shifting assets around to make things as balanced as possible when the SLI comes out. The West contract for example has a provision that allows them to open a new domicile with only current and qualified pilots so long as the overall block hours between the two domiciles remains current year over year. It's the reason Parker opened the sham of a LAS crew domicile years ago and now with no transition agreement there's nothing stopping him from doing so. I don't know what the East contract says on current and qualified, but there's nothing stopping them from opening a domicile anywhere other a current AA domicile. Parker could and probably will save himself some training $$$ this way down the line and it will likely result in some very interesting arguments at the table from the East, West, and APA committees.

 

[Marko Ramius]

....divide the New American pilot group into fighting factions for at least a decade or two!!

Parker could not care less which group gets the upper hand as long as they keep fighting.

True indeed. I think the only reason the APA appears to be in better shape than the US side of things is simply corporate greed. If AA had gone along with the merger plan from the jump, Parker wouldn't have needed to sweeten the deal to get the unions to support a merger vs a standalone career. APA was always going to be the surviving union and that in and of itself was the answer to a lot of Parker's USAPA problems. It's not like he had to give APA much to handle that. I suspect absent AA's original objections, all three parties would have been looking at a rougher deal and a courser touch of what the bankruptcy court can do.

 

[Turtle21]

Handed to him on a platter by the lack of integrity of USAirways East pilots reneging on a binding arbitration.

APA will become the sole union and will form 3 committees: AA, East and West. It will go to an arbitrator. The arbitrator will put great weight on the Nic list since it was the results of a binding arbitration and accepted (just not implemented) by the former USAirways management. AA and the West will respect the arbitrated list. East will once again renege and start the court battle once more. Parker will get to keep his upper hand due to the infighting, once again caused solely by a lack of integrity on the part of the East pilots.

Name one contractual document that affirms the Nic. Just one.

Parker doesn't care about integrity, otherwise he would proudly wear one of your $675 ties (he owns plenty of $675 ties, just not a Leonidas tie. )