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SWA delaying new planes, adding used Westjet birds --article

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How did GK lie to you?
He said he wanted a negotiated list over and over and over- ATALPA was playing the delay delay game, and flat out just being a confusing, neurotic bunch that your own guys were frustrated with. GK said honestly that this deal got less profitable over time if every group fought t out to the lengths of their PAs. that being the case, other options for you were on the table. You guys had a role in the outcome whether you want to admit that or not UALx72. There's only one way to say it.
 
waveflyer said:
How did GK lie to you?
He said he wanted a negotiated list over and over and over- ATALPA was playing the delay delay game, and flat out just being a confusing, neurotic bunch that your own guys were frustrated with. GK said honestly that this deal got less profitable over time if every group fought t out to the lengths of their PAs. that being the case, other options for you were on the table. You guys had a role in the outcome whether you want to admit that or not UALx72. There's only one way to say it.
Click to expand...

Wave,

So you are saying GK has honored even one agreement with us. PA = lie. Transition bid = lie. 717's more cost effective after SLI 1 didn't pass and would stay a bit longer = lie. 717 base TBD = lie. Everyone awarded 717 would have to fill that seat before transition = lie. These are just a few off the top of my head. I can't think of one part of any agreement that has not been reneged on.

I know what you believe depends upon what side you view it from. You may feel it is okay for GK to do this. But we on the AAI side feel like we were wronged so off to DRC. Time will tell if the cases have merit.
 
27 driver said:
Wave,

So you are saying GK has honored even one agreement with us. PA = lie. Transition bid = lie. 717's more cost effective after SLI 1 didn't pass and would stay a bit longer = lie. 717 base TBD = lie. Everyone awarded 717 would have to fill that seat before transition = lie. These are just a few off the top of my head. I can't think of one part of any agreement that has not been reneged on.

I know what you believe depends upon what side you view it from. You may feel it is okay for GK to do this. But we on the AAI side feel like we were wronged so off to DRC. Time will tell if the cases have merit.
Click to expand...
Do you have any of this in writing? Oh, that's right.... The writing says they can do exactly what they are doing, so sorry, but you voted for it. What you call lies is your warped interpretation of what really was written down. The business has a right to run the business.
 
scoreboardII said:
Do you have any of this in writing? Oh, that's right.... The writing says they can do exactly what they are doing, so sorry, but you voted for it. What you call lies is your warped interpretation of what really was written down. The business has a right to run the business.
Click to expand...

The PA and transition bid are in writing. I dont have all the company emails and press releases handy but everything I said was in writing. Your purple enemas and mandatory frontal lobotmy have finally killed enough brain cells that you can't even read much less comprehend anything unless SWAPA tells you to. That's fine. Keep slurping the purple juice. Can you honestly say that our written agreements have been adhered to? You are entitled to your opinion. We will wait for the arbitrator's decision I guess.
 
scoreboardII said:
Your mean they failed to realize their BATNA by falling for what their MEC sold them. Can't help you there.
Click to expand...

You're right, they did fail to realize their BATNA. But in the opposite way of what you mean. They underestimated it. Our BATNA was a final and binding arbitrated award enforceable by law.
 
Someones been hitting the Green Koolaid they are handing out in ATL: It goes something like this: "you were pilots at a striving, great little airline, your selfish and greedy CEO sold you off to SWA, SWA "put a gun to your head" and with the help of SWAPA "stole" your captain seats"...classic David gets slain by goliath. You will forever be the underdog/militant/"we got screwed" segment of the SWA pilot group, even as you make much more money then you ever had in your life flying airplanes while enjoying the best work environment in commercial aviation at an airline built by "purple enema, orange koolaid" folks (and believe me I don't mean the pilots) who will not appreciate your attitude. Especially when you rise to the top of a seniority list far larger than you ever could have done at the soon to be defunct AAI and make as much as six times the average US salary.

Seriously, instead of whining about your lost AAI seniority, why not embrace the fact that you were bought by a company like LUV vs let's say DAL, or maybe working for DAL was what you always dreamed of, but could not make work for whatever reason.
 
27 driver said:
Wave,

So you are saying GK has honored even one agreement with us. PA = lie. Transition bid = lie. 717's more cost effective after SLI 1 didn't pass and would stay a bit longer = lie. 717 base TBD = lie. Everyone awarded 717 would have to fill that seat before transition = lie. These are just a few off the top of my head. I can't think of one part of any agreement that has not been reneged on.

I know what you believe depends upon what side you view it from. You may feel it is okay for GK to do this. But we on the AAI side feel like we were wronged so off to DRC. Time will tell if the cases have merit.
Click to expand...

There's a world of difference between something not going the way you thought/wanted/expected, and it being a lie. For instance, the oft-repeated claim that "Southwest screwed AirTran by not following the Process Agreement." Above you listed it as one of GK's "lies." Good God, Driver, have you even read that agreement?

GK said from the beginning that he wanted this to be done in-house, with every pilot getting to vote on an agreement. In the PA preamble (all the "whereas" stuff), it talks about M-B and the ultimate process of binding arbitration. However, it next mentions the "alternative ways" other than arbitration (i.e. negotiation) to accomplish this, and the next whereas states that all sides, including ALPA, "desire[d]" to accomplish an SLI using these ways other than arbitration. Do you think the AirTran ALPA MEC really desired this?

More importantly, in the actual meat of the PA, after it talks about how the sides were going to accomplish this negotiation to an agreement, it says that after such an SLI agreement is reached: "SWAPA and ALPA agree to submit the complete agreement to their respective memberships for ratification" (PA Section II (c) (ii)). Did that happen? No. Did ALPA live up to what they agreed to in the Process Agreement? Looks like 'no' to me. A SLI agreement was reached through negotiation, and one side failed to honor their PA commitment by not sending it to their membership for ratification.

In fact some AirTran ALPA members have intimated that they wanted arbitration from the beginning. One even was actually quoted on this forum as saying that he didn't want the AirTran pilots voting on the agreed-upon first deal; he was afraid they would vote yes, and he wanted arbitration because he thought he could get more. That is clearly against the spirit of the PA, where everyone agreed that they "desired" a negotiated agreement. More importantly, it specifically violated the letter of the PA, where both sides agreed to send a negotiated SLI agreement to their members.

You might want to think about that, before you blindly pass off what happened with the Process Agreement as a "GK lie."

Bubba
 
He doesn't want to look at the agreement. It's much easier for him to pound his fist on the table and continue to rant about how they got screwed. ALPA played more of a hand in that from the beginning.
 
madjack said:
Why were pilots leaving AAI for SWA?
Click to expand...
Give up that tired excuse already. Were there some that left? Yes, a few, but they were junior and didn't have much time invested.

Then there is the fallacy of all those supposed hundreds of applications on file with SWA from current AAI pilots. Well, when a guy is in the regionals at Eagle, Comair or whomever, he mails out a lot of applications to various majors, including AAI. If he is lucky enough to get picked up by one of them, does he call back every other major and say, "rescind my application?" No. It sits on file forever, even if it was filed 15 years ago.

I hear from the Delta guys that DAL has been getting quite a few online apps lately...from current SWA pilots; mostly junior I would imagine.
 

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