Single-pilot jets?

[paid4training]

What are some of the options for 6 pax single pilot jets available? Or would it be more economical to pay someone to sit right seat?

 

[LJ45]

A better question might get better answers. not sure what you are asking?

 

[ackattacker]

If I understand your question, you are asking what private jets exist which are single-pilot certified and can seat 6 pax in the back. Off the top of my head, a Phenom 300 fits the bill as does the CJ3. Probably a few others.

The second part of your question is whether single-pilot operation is more economic than a two-pilot operation. The answer, in general, is an emphatic "NO". The extra insurance cost ALONE will more than cover the cost of a 2nd pilot.

Of course, there is the tricky situation where the aircraft is just capable of carrying your necessary load with 1 pilot. Therefore adding another pilot pushes you over your capability and you need a larger aircraft. With a 6-pax aircraft this is generally less of an issue than with a true VLJ such as a Phenom 100 or Eclipse.

Also, it should be emphasized that the reason single pilot operations cost more in insurance is because they are demonstrably less safe. What price you put on your own life or those of your passengers is up to you to quantify.

 

[tdwnds1]

I fly single pilot in a Turboprop, but when it comes to jets, I truly believe that second pilot is worth the cost. What price do you put on safety with the second person? Hiring that other pilot is a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than the lawsuits that come if there is an accident with one pilot.

 

[Bleeds On]

I fly single pilot in a Turboprop, but when it comes to jets, I truly believe that second pilot is worth the cost. What price do you put on safety with the second person? Hiring that other pilot is a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than the lawsuits that come if there is an accident with one pilot.

I'm sure people can sue for anything, but what grounds would the suit have if the aircraft was certified SP or waivered as such and crewed and insured properly?

Our underwriter quoted SP waiver on a Citation II vs. running a two-pilot operation and the difference was about $3000 for $100Mil liability. Clearly can't ignore the cost so then it comes down to the intangible of how much safety a SIC adds. Keep in mind this is for an old aircraft that has very little hull value.

It all comes down to what they want which has more variables than I can list. A decent Citation II will run you $500K or less which is insane, but they're a dying breed(support getting tougher). Phenom, Citation CJ 1-4....what do they want to pay.

 

[jonjuan]

I fly single pilot in a Turboprop, but when it comes to jets, I truly believe that second pilot is worth the cost. What price do you put on safety with the second person? Hiring that other pilot is a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER than the lawsuits that come if there is an accident with one pilot.

Why do you feel any differently in a jet vs turboprop, SP?

 

[tdwnds1]

Why do you feel any differently in a jet vs turboprop, SP?

Simple...

Reaction time and complexity. Your average turboprop is in the 180-250KTAS range. (though Pilatus and TBM are higher) There is more time for one pilot to react to situations as opposed to the higher speeds of Jets. You also have increasing complexity despite some outstanding avionics on the newer models. I just believe if you are up there in the FL in a jet you need that second person with you.

 

[guido411]

Why do you feel any differently in a jet vs turboprop, SP?

Flying around in a jet by myself at FL410? No thanks, I'll take the increase in odds that SOMEBODY gets their mask on in time during a rapid D with a second pilot.

 

[Headwind]

Agree with everything above about the increased safety with two pilots. However the insurance does not cost us more for single pilot operation in CJ.

 

[jonjuan]

Simple...

Reaction time and complexity. Your average turboprop is in the 180-250KTAS range. (though Pilatus and TBM are higher) There is more time for one pilot to react to situations as opposed to the higher speeds of Jets. You also have increasing complexity despite some outstanding avionics on the newer models. I just believe if you are up there in the FL in a jet you need that second person with you.

If you're at altitude, who cares how fast you are going? Which would you rather be in during an engine fire? Two pilots are always better than one, however, give me the jet sp during an emergency any day over the same emergency in a tp. The newer fadec jets at least are much less complex than a tp with the motors out on the wing. How many steps again during an engine fire on a tp? Single engine approach at mins? Yikes. No thanks, single pilot.

 

[X-rated]

Simple...

Reaction time and complexity. Your average turboprop is in the 180-250KTAS range. (though Pilatus and TBM are higher) There is more time for one pilot to react to situations as opposed to the higher speeds of Jets. You also have increasing complexity despite some outstanding avionics on the newer models. I just believe if you are up there in the FL in a jet you need that second person with you.

I think you're being a little hypocritical. They all go 250 below 10K feet. What difference does it make how fast they go above 10K? Also, some single pilot turboprops have a much higher workload than the average two pilot Jet.

Flying around in a jet by myself at FL410? No thanks, I'll take the increase in odds that SOMEBODY gets their mask on in time during a rapid D with a second pilot.

I know it's a widely abused reg, but aren't you supposed to be on O2 above FL250 or FL350 when operating single pilot? Hard to say it's not safe if you have to violate a reg to make it unsafe.

I do believe flying as a crew is always preferable, but whether or not the turbines drive propellers is irrelevant.

 

[BoilerUP]

It my dumbass can safely fly single pilot at FL450, anybody can.

The premium to fly SP is less than 10% above dual crew for us - not remotely cost prohibitive. If it is, you need a new insurance broker. But we do operate with two pilots 90%+ of the time, which I prefer, as two sets of eyes are always better than one.

 

[tdwnds1]

I think you're being a little hypocritical. They all go 250 below 10K feet. What difference does it make how fast they go above 10K? Also, some single pilot turboprops have a much higher workload than the average two pilot Jet.



I know it's a widely abused reg, but aren't you supposed to be on O2 above FL250 or FL350 when operating single pilot? Hard to say it's not safe if you have to violate a reg to make it unsafe.

I do believe flying as a crew is always preferable, but whether or not the turbines drive propellers is irrelevant.

Im not trying to be hypocritical, but a guess it boils down to a person choice and I like to have the second person next to me in a Jet.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Well, I fly the Phenom 300. If you look hard enough you can find all the info on it in another thread. However, a new 300 is somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 million and you can get a Lear 45 for half that, apply the savings to hiring a second pilot and the added fuel cost and maintenance and still come up $3+ million ahead. Plus you'll have someone to carry your bags

 

[brokeflyer]

by asking this question its obvious you're the boss...do you shop around for the cheapest heart surgeon?....ride your bike without a helmet? cause its legal?

just hire another pilot and dont worry about it. remember we have to share the sky with your crappy single pilot too....dont crap in our mouth.

 

[Capt. JD]

The USAF flies F-15 and F-22 single pilot but no passengers to worry about if the one pilot dies or is incapacitated! I agree that for transport flying a two pilot crew is best for work load reduction in emergencies & redundancy...

 

[kingairyahoo]

...dont forget the Beech Premier

 

[paid4training]

Yea, this week I am the "boss" but that can change month to month like most contract labor. Cj3 would be nice, but I've heard the citation V is single-pilot and affordable. It sounds as if the insurance is based on the experience level and value of the aircraft. When these guys decide exactly what they want I will have around 500 twin time with 300 turbine so hopefully I will qualify for either jet. They want to spend about $2 million range

 

[BoilerUP]

Yea, this week I am the "boss" but that can change month to month like most contract labor. Cj3 would be nice, but I've heard the citation V is single-pilot and affordable. It sounds as if the insurance is based on the experience level and value of the aircraft. When these guys decide exactly what they want I will have around 500 twin time with 300 turbine so hopefully I will qualify for either jet. They want to spend about $2 million range

500 multi/300 turbine isn't much experience for operating a twinjet single pilot. Can it be done? Sure...but getting SP insured is probably going to be expensive the first year with liability limits capped in the $5-10M range, and require 6-month training.

Also, I think a 500-series Single Pilot Waiver requires 500 turbine (either PIC or SIC).

 

[Headwind]

I was told, at last 525 recurrent, that if it's your first type you are limited to flying with a typed SIC for so many hours. It's like an IOE.I forget the number but was not small.
So it seems that you can no longer jump from whatever you were flying into your first jet and go single pilot.

 

[BoilerUP]

I was told, at last 525 recurrent, that if it's your first type you are limited to flying with a typed SIC for so many hours. It's like an IOE.I forget the number but was not small.

25 hours, IIRC...61.63 is the applicable FAR. Besides, insurance would at least that much "mentoring" before cutting somebody loose as PIC anyway, probably 50-100 hours and maybe more for a pilot with little multi/turbine experience.

 

[guido411]

The USAF flies F-15 and F-22 single pilot but no passengers to worry about if the one pilot dies or is incapacitated!

They also have higher weather minimums and an ejection seat.

 

[fu69atacafyeah]

Yea, this week I am the "boss" but that can change month to month like most contract labor. Cj3 would be nice, but I've heard the citation V is single-pilot and affordable. It sounds as if the insurance is based on the experience level and value of the aircraft. When these guys decide exactly what they want I will have around 500 twin time with 300 turbine so hopefully I will qualify for either jet. They want to spend about $2 million range

You are god! The "iceman" of corporate aviation with your 500/300 hours!! You are ready to fly the retired Space Shuttle!!

Ahhhh I can see it now...your tombstone will read as follows: "before i balled this thing up and killed myself, I saved the millionaire owner 45k in salary for a SIC." Meanwhile your family and your bosses family will be grieving the death of their family member because you were selfish and arrogant. Enjoy yourself!

 

[paid4training]

You are god! The "iceman" of corporate aviation with your 500/300 hours!! You are ready to fly the retired Space Shuttle!!

Ahhhh I can see it now...your tombstone will read as follows: "before i balled this thing up and killed myself, I saved the millionaire owner 45k in salary for a SIC." Meanwhile your family and your bosses family will be grieving the death of their family member because you were selfish and arrogant. Enjoy yourself!

Blow it out ur a$$ there maverick!!!!

 

[paid4training]

And um a$$clown, I'm looking 2-5 years down the road not the first year. I WILL have a co-pilot with a crapload of hours for the first year. Lets not make this personal huh sunny!!!

 

[CaptSeth]

And um a$$clown, I'm looking 2-5 years down the road not the first year. I WILL have a co-pilot with a crapload of hours for the first year. Lets not make this personal huh sunny!!!

What you really need, sparky, is a CAPTAIN with a crapload of hours. My guess, if your employer is smart enough to make the kind of bread to buy one of these things, he's going to want someone with enough EXPERIENCE to fly it safely and be INSURABLE.

 

[paid4training]

Sparky huh? I actually meet the insurance requirements now with my TOTAL time. You must be one of those old crusty pilots that have more hours than sense. You Go through level 5 t-storms because you did it back in 85 and it worked out okay or go down to zero zero cause your just that good!!! Now I see why pilots are a commodity to those millionaires that some fly for. Whether it be commerical or corporate, there are alot of a-hole know it alls that make the rest of us normal humble pilots look bad. I'm done asking any rational question on this site. Most of you on here are bitter about your jobs, your 3 divorces and your kids you never see. It gets old and from some of the attitudes on here, probably deserve it. I wasn't given anything in this industry. Hell I'm probably older than most of the posters, but I'm happy what I'm doing. Even if is flying a jet, turboprop or how I got here, flight instruction.

 

[Paradoxus]

Hell I'm probably older than most of the posters

Older, close to zero experience, and most shockingly demonstrative: little or no education to speak of. Your posts are seething with all-manner of grammatical and cognitive offenses.

You'd be well-advised to consider the opinions of those whom do this for a living, Brightspark.

 

[con-pilot]

Just a couple of points, the military, USAF version of the Sabre 40, the T-39 was a single pilot aircraft, it also had no auto-pilot, no radar and no anti-skid.

The Lear 24 was originally designed as a single pilot aircraft. Bill Lear tried every trick in the book to receive FAA approval for a single pilot certificate, even to the point the MGTOW was under 12,500 lbs, to no avail.

In my opinion, as all turbo-prop aircraft, under 12.5, are single pilot certified, I really see no reason that this new generation of very light jets cannot be as well.

However, personally I believe that any business jet or turbo-prop that operates in any high traffic density aircraft area should have two pilots. There are times that the work load in a Kingair 200 is much higher than in standard medium business jet that requires two pilots.

Bottom line, cheaper is not always better.

 

[SENECAII]

Most of the time,one pilot is fine.Its for those other times when a second pilot would be nice.